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| Septa Regional Rail: Dumb Question (239917) | |
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Septa Regional Rail: Dumb Question |
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Posted by Teddmann on Mon Apr 10 20:22:10 2006 Maybe this is a dumb question, but...You've got your R1, R2, R3, R5, R6, R7, and R8... Was there ever an R4?? |
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Re: Septa Regional Rail: Dumb Question |
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Posted by WMATAGMOAGH on Mon Apr 10 20:59:29 2006, in response to Septa Regional Rail: Dumb Question, posted by Teddmann on Mon Apr 10 20:22:10 2006. No |
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Re: Septa Regional Rail: Dumb Question |
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Posted by WillD on Mon Apr 10 21:40:00 2006, in response to Septa Regional Rail: Dumb Question, posted by Teddmann on Mon Apr 10 20:22:10 2006. It was included in the original Vuchic plan for the Regional Rail System, but when the swampoodle connector wasn't built the R8, which hadn't existed prior to then was substituted. |
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: Septa Regional Rail: Dumb Question |
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Posted by R7 Torresdale Express on Mon Apr 10 23:20:20 2006, in response to Re: Septa Regional Rail: Dumb Question, posted by WillD on Mon Apr 10 21:40:00 2006. Are you F***ING SERIOUS?!?!?! THAT'S the Swampnoodle Connector? You mean to tell me the SEPTA of the 1980s was even more inept than the SEPTA of today, that they couldn't build THAT?! The f***ing tracks are RIGHT NEXT TO EACH OTHER! |
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Re: Septa Regional Rail: Dumb Question |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Mon Apr 10 23:25:14 2006, in response to Re: Septa Regional Rail: Dumb Question, posted by R7 Torresdale Express on Mon Apr 10 23:20:20 2006. Shut up, I'm glad they didn't fuck the CHW by hooking it into the Reading. |
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| (239995) | |
Re: Septa Regional Rail: Dumb Question |
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Posted by Market-Frankford on Mon Apr 10 23:28:23 2006, in response to Septa Regional Rail: Dumb Question, posted by Teddmann on Mon Apr 10 20:22:10 2006. First of all, it's not a dumb question. The answer is rather complex. I'll start off by showing you a map of the lines before numbering, around 1980. As you can see, Suburban Station/Penn Center and the Reading Terminal were not yet connected. In order to streamline operations and provide through-train service, it was decided to build a tunnel link. The porposals actually go all the way back to when the lines were run by seperate companies. The companies weren't enthusiastic about it, however, both would soon go bankrupt and fall into the hands of SEPTA (actually Conrail for a couple years before SEPTA). With SEPTA in control of all trains, progress was accelerated. Another part of the through-train plan was a rail link called the Swampoodle Connection. The purpose of the SC was to allow the Chestnut Hill West line easier access to its tracks. The issue at hand was getting the trains through a flat junction where northbound trains had to cross over all of the tracks of the NEC to get from the NEC northbound local track to the Chestnut Hill West northbound local track. (See Picture 1). A little further to the west, the Norristown line splits off the Reading main line at 16th Street Junction. (See Picture 2). A little bit to the north, the Norristown and Chestnut Hill West lines come very close to each other. (See picture 3).
Since northbound Chestnut Hill West trains must cross over all tracks of the NEC, that junction often has delays becuase a CHW train is waiting for a mainline NEC train to cross, or vice versa. They figured that a good way to reduce delays would be to build a connection between the Norristown and Chestnut Hill West lines. Chestnut Hill East trains would then run up the Reading mainline, split off with the Norristown line at 16th Street Junction, then split off at the Swampoodle Connection and follow through on its route. Since the opening of the tunnel would bring through-train service, they needed to figure out an operating plan. They chose Vukan Vuchic, a professor at the University of Pennsylvania, to develop a through-train operating plan. Vuchic was a fan of the S-bahn suburban train networks of Germany. Many of those once had seperate downtown termini, which were later connected. They ran through-trains that were named "S" and then a number. That is where he got the idea to name the Philly lines "R" and then a number. There were three things that Vuchic assumed that affected the line pairings. The first was that the Swampoodle Connection would be built (which never happend). The second was that that the Airport line would be built (which did happen). The third was that, on the Paoli line, Bryn Mawr locals and Paoli expresses would run as seperate lines. He numbered the Pennsy lines from south (R1 Airport) to northeast (R7 Trenton). He matched them with Reading lines of approximately equal ridership. He proposed that following routings/pairings: R1 - Airport - West Trenton R2 - Marcus Hook (later Newark) - Warminster R3 - Media/West Chester (later Elwyn) - CH West R4 - Bryn Mawr - Fox Chase R5 - Paoli (later Thorndale) - Doylestown R6 - Ivy Ridge (later Cynwyd) - Norristown R7 - Trenton - Chestnut Hill East  The Center City Commuter Tunnel was finished in November of 1984. The Airport line wouldn't open for another 5 months, and the Swampoodle Connection wasn't even at the construction stage when that happened, so a temporary plan was put in place. The R3 was originally soposed to go from Media/West Chester to Chestnut Hill West, however, since the SC wasn't built, this wasn't possible. Also, since the R1 Airport line wasn't operating yet, the West Trenton line needed a partner. The Media/West Chester and West Trenton lines were linked. The CH West line was paired with the Fox Chase line and given the new temporary designation of R8. The R4, the line that was originally soposed to go to Fox Chase, was dropped, and the R5 assumed control of all Bryn Mawr/Paoli line trains. In Arpil of 1985, the R1 Airport line opened. it was decided to leave it without a partner for two reasons. The first was that it had double the service of most lines. The second was that on-time preformance on the Airport line is more critical than that on other lines, so it was best to leave it not relying on another line. That brings us to our current system:  But even now, many trains don't run through with their respective line. General pairings are as follows: Weekday R1 Airport - R2 Warminster R2 Newark - R6 Norristown R3 Media/Elwyn - R3 West Trenton R5 Thorndale - R5 Doylestown AND some terminate at N. Broad R6 Cynwyd - terminates downtown R7 Trenton - R7 CHE R8 CHW - R8 Fox Chase Weekend R1 Airport - R2 Warminster AND R3 West Trenton R2 Wilmington/Marcus Hook - R6 Norristown R3 Media/Elwyn - terminates downtown R5 Thorndale/Malvern - R5 Doylestown AND some terminate at Market East on Saturday R6 Cynwyd run on weekdays only R7 Trenton - R7 CHE R8 CHW - R8 Fox Chase |
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| (239998) | |
Re: Septa Regional Rail: Dumb Question |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Apr 10 23:30:01 2006, in response to Re: Septa Regional Rail: Dumb Question, posted by R7 Torresdale Express on Mon Apr 10 23:20:20 2006. You mean to tell me the SEPTA of the 1980s was even more inept than the SEPTA of todayThey're the same SEPTA. They closed Reading Terminal, didn't they? |
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Re: Septa Regional Rail: Dumb Question |
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Posted by WillD on Mon Apr 10 23:35:12 2006, in response to Re: Septa Regional Rail: Dumb Question, posted by Market-Frankford on Mon Apr 10 23:28:23 2006.  http://subchat.com/read.asp?Id=239952 However, it was probably for the best that the Swampoodle Connector wasn't built. The R8 does suffer because it has to cross the NEC at North Philadelphia, but it would have screwwed things up to put the R4 on the Paoli line. |
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Re: Septa Regional Rail: Dumb Question |
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Posted by Market-Frankford on Mon Apr 10 23:39:18 2006, in response to Re: Septa Regional Rail: Dumb Question, posted by R7 Torresdale Express on Mon Apr 10 23:20:20 2006. This closeBut I'm glad they didn't build it. As to their inept-ness, let's see how inept they were: They closed the Newtown line past Fox Chase They closed the West Chester line past Elwyn They extended to Parkesburg (which required trains to go an additional 20 miles to reverse) They closed the Ivy Ridge line past Cynwyd |
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Re: Septa Regional Rail: Dumb Question |
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Posted by Market-Frankford on Mon Apr 10 23:45:01 2006, in response to Re: Septa Regional Rail: Dumb Question, posted by WillD on Mon Apr 10 23:35:12 2006. Your post isn't really a short version of mine. Mine at least tells you who the guy is, has Windows Live Local aerial views, and shows all three pairing systems. Although mine was probably more lengthy than it had to be....And yes, I think all the changes were good. |
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Re: Septa Regional Rail: Dumb Question |
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Posted by R7 Torresdale Express on Mon Apr 10 23:57:51 2006, in response to Re: Septa Regional Rail: Dumb Question, posted by WillD on Mon Apr 10 23:35:12 2006. it would have screwwed things up to put the R4 on the Paoli line.How so? How many tracks does the line have up to that point? |
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Re: Septa Regional Rail: Dumb Question |
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Posted by Market-Frankford on Tue Apr 11 01:07:21 2006, in response to Re: Septa Regional Rail: Dumb Question, posted by R7 Torresdale Express on Mon Apr 10 23:57:51 2006. It's 4 tracks the whole way. |
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Re: Septa Regional Rail: Dumb Question |
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Posted by R7 Torresdale Express on Tue Apr 11 08:59:19 2006, in response to Re: Septa Regional Rail: Dumb Question, posted by Market-Frankford on Tue Apr 11 01:07:21 2006. Then why would it be a problem? |
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Re: Septa Regional Rail: Dumb Question |
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Posted by Red Line to Glenmont on Tue Apr 11 11:04:09 2006, in response to Re: Septa Regional Rail: Dumb Question, posted by Market-Frankford on Mon Apr 10 23:39:18 2006. Wait! Stop the Music! The R4 does exist, sort of. The product catalog for the SEPTA Transit Store at 1234 Market St. is called R4 and is shaped like a timetable; it's their idea of humor. |
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Re: Septa Regional Rail: Dumb Question |
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Posted by WillD on Tue Apr 11 12:25:40 2006, in response to Re: Septa Regional Rail: Dumb Question, posted by R7 Torresdale Express on Tue Apr 11 08:59:19 2006. Because those four tracks are shared with Amtrak and some freight operations. It'd also royally screw things up to have the R4 local and the R5 express, especially for folks who want to ride between say Paoli and Overbrook. In my experience quite a bit of SEPTA's midday ridership on the line is from one station to another, and they'd be setting up a nightmare by having one local and one express. |
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Re: Septa Regional Rail: Dumb Question |
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Posted by Market-Frankford on Tue Apr 11 12:43:02 2006, in response to Re: Septa Regional Rail: Dumb Question, posted by WillD on Tue Apr 11 12:25:40 2006. Change at Bryn Mawr. If, however, the R4 existed and went to Bryn Mawr, the R5 would still probably go local the whole way middays. |
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Re: Septa Regional Rail: Dumb Question |
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Posted by R7 Torresdale Express on Tue Apr 11 14:56:21 2006, in response to Re: Septa Regional Rail: Dumb Question, posted by WillD on Tue Apr 11 12:25:40 2006. They could be timed to meet at Bryn Mawr... |
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Re: Septa Regional Rail: Dumb Question |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Tue Apr 11 15:02:07 2006, in response to Re: Septa Regional Rail: Dumb Question, posted by WillD on Tue Apr 11 12:25:40 2006. When Ilived in Germantown I frequently used the R8 Chestnut Hill West to get home. About 50% of the time my train would wait in front of the turnoff for up to three or four minutes at a time. The inbound Metroliner or Acela Express would pass, and then we'd proceed across the interlocking. |
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