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NYCTA moves forward with photo ban

Posted by Mark on Thu Nov 25 12:03:22 2004

I hate to be the bearer of bad news, but so it goes. Everyone thought that the proposed rule amendments that first surfaced six months ago were dead, but that's not the case. They were officially proposed in yesterday's edition of the State Register. The 45-day comment period opened yesterday, November 24, and will run through January 10. Here is an overview of administrative rulemaking as it applies to NYCTA.

Submit comments to David Goldenberg, New York City Transit Authority, 130 Livingston Street, Room 1207, Brooklyn NY 11201, 718-694-5454.

The MTA's impeccable timing is apparently a tactic to catch folks when they're busiest and least likely to make noise. Happy Thanksgiving and happy holidays to you too, guys.

Let's not let this issue fade so that it can go to a board vote behind everyone's backs. Most news media outlets tend to support a more liberal view on the proposed photo ban, so let's get them involved. Fate may be sealed already, but don't give up hope without making some noise while you still can. Spread the word, and do it now.

The highlights of the proposed amendments, which apply to NYCTA and SIRTOA facilities, are claimed to "further enhance passenger security and safety." They are allegedly justified with the following: "In light recent [sic] national and international events that have underscored the need for heightened security measures throughout the transit system, a reinstatement of a prohibition that existed until the early 1990's against photography, filming, and video recording in transit facilities and on transit conveyances without prior authorization except for members of the press."

The notice also has this to say on photography:

"Alternatives: Consideration was given to restricting photography, etc. of sensitive areas only. However, it was felt that a less restrictive approach would not yield the necessary security enhancements and given the nature of the activities in question enforcement of a rule which required law enforcement personnel to make a judgment of the precise subject matter being photographed would be highly problematic."

Finally, the text of the relevant propsosed amendments:

1050.9.c. No photograph, film or video recording shall be made or taken on or in any conveyance or facility by any person, except members of the press holding valid press identification cards issued by the New York City Police Department or by others duly authorized in writing to engage in such activity by the authority. All photographic activity must be conducted in accordance with the provisions of this Part.

1040.4.f. No photograph, film or video recording shall be made or taken on or in any conveyance or facility by any person, except members of the press holding valid press identification cards issued by the New York City Police Department or by others duly authorized in writing to engage in such activity by SIRTOA or the authority. All photographic activity must be conducted in accordance with the provisions of this Part.

Mark

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(22871)

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Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban

Posted by SIRTOA on Thu Nov 25 12:09:50 2004, in response to NYCTA moves forward with photo ban, posted by Mark on Thu Nov 25 12:03:22 2004.

1040.4.f. No photograph, film or video recording shall be made or taken on or in any conveyance or facility by any person, except members of the press holding valid press identification cards issued by the New York City Police Department or by others duly authorized in writing to engage in such activity by SIRTOA or the authority. All photographic activity must be conducted in accordance with the provisions of this Part.

Yeah FUCKING Right. They can suck my balls before i stop photographing my line. Assholes.

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(22873)

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Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban

Posted by David of Broadway on Thu Nov 25 12:14:39 2004, in response to NYCTA moves forward with photo ban, posted by Mark on Thu Nov 25 12:03:22 2004.

Thank you for keeping your eyes open.

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(G00GLE)

Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban


(22875)

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Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban

Posted by Jeff Rosen on Thu Nov 25 12:16:31 2004, in response to Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban, posted by SIRTOA on Thu Nov 25 12:09:50 2004.

Please. Why are you holding back. Tell us how you really feel.

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(22876)

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Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban

Posted by BIE on Thu Nov 25 12:22:19 2004, in response to NYCTA moves forward with photo ban, posted by Mark on Thu Nov 25 12:03:22 2004.

they waited until their side won the election. I hope you jingofascist cavemen who supported bu$h all get busted.

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(22877)

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Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban

Posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Thu Nov 25 12:44:56 2004, in response to NYCTA moves forward with photo ban, posted by Mark on Thu Nov 25 12:03:22 2004.

Thats nice. I will send NYCT my photographs of the swipers and they are more than welcome to come to my house and slap the cuffs on me.

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(22878)

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Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban

Posted by RJM on Thu Nov 25 12:51:57 2004, in response to NYCTA moves forward with photo ban, posted by Mark on Thu Nov 25 12:03:22 2004.

I sent the following e-mail to the MTA:

First of all, I cannot describe how angry I am at the proposed Rules
of Conduct for NYCT and SIRTOA; in particular the part that concerns
photography.

Since I'm a transit photographer, I am strongly against the new
proposed rules. Banning photography would NOT help security and
safety, and it would NOT stop terrorism. The ban would only stop
people like me, who find interest in the transit system and enjoy it.

Terrorists DO NOT need pictures to carry out their plans. They only
need to observe the crowding conditions at major stations.

And supposing that they DO need photos? They will use the vast array
of photos available on the Internet. The two following sites have
close to 25,000 photos when put together: www.nycsubway.org , and
www.nycrail.com.

Supposing this ban is passed AND a terrorist would want photos? He
would do it anyway. If he was to get a summons, why would he care? He
would just move to another location anyway.

There are MANY other things to worry about, rather than banning
photography. The first thing would be to clear the subway of homeless
people, who foul up stations with their belongings and degrade the
subway system. The second thing would be better enforcement of the
"no food" rule, etc. The main point is, why are you
worrying about terrorism when you can't even keep the subway system
in working and clean condition?

Visit this webpage: http://www.nycsubway.org/photoban.html to
learn about the REAL effects of the photo ban.

This e-mail is only the first action I will take. I, among with many
other transit enthusiasts in NYC, will do everything we can to stop
this nonsense that is the photo ban.


Hopefully the MTA will notice this... but they'll probably throw it out anyway. :-(

-RJM


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(22879)

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Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban

Posted by Trinity Railway Express F59PH 566 on Thu Nov 25 12:53:34 2004, in response to NYCTA moves forward with photo ban, posted by Mark on Thu Nov 25 12:03:22 2004.

Hopefully, the NY AG knows from the NJ AG that such a ban may not be able to stand a court challenge, and since it would be in federal court, the MTA would be well advised. (For this reason, the NJ AG is not enforcing NJT's photo ban, because it is constitutionally flawed, and this one is likely also. The MTA may end up with it on the books, but what are the odds that such a ban will ever GET to be enforced? (The ACLU will likely launch an immediate challenge to it.))

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(22880)

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Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Nov 25 12:54:04 2004, in response to Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban, posted by BIE on Thu Nov 25 12:22:19 2004.


Normally, I wouldn't do this, but:

You are an idiotic fuckwad. Bush has nothing to do with this photo ban proposal. If you can't contain your political hatreds to appropriate forums & topics, please cease posting to this board.

This applies retroactively to every other asshole who will attempt to tie this proposal to the current administration later in this thread.

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(22881)

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Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban

Posted by Trinity Railway Express F59PH 566 on Thu Nov 25 12:54:54 2004, in response to Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban, posted by RJM on Thu Nov 25 12:51:57 2004.

You should have mentioned constitutional ramifications, such as in NJ, where the attorney general told NJT that their photo ban would probably not survive a court challenge in federal court.

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(22882)

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Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban

Posted by David of Broadway on Thu Nov 25 12:55:26 2004, in response to Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban, posted by RJM on Thu Nov 25 12:51:57 2004.

Good letter, but there is no "no food" rule on NYCT facilities.

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Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban

Posted by SIRTOA on Thu Nov 25 12:56:55 2004, in response to Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban, posted by Jeff Rosen on Thu Nov 25 12:16:31 2004.

You wanna know how i feel?

THIS, THIS and all of THIS for that matter will continue to grow in the future, no matter what the MTA has in mind. Thats how I feel.

-Chris
www.transitpics.com

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(22884)

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Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban

Posted by BIE on Thu Nov 25 12:57:09 2004, in response to Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban, posted by Trinity Railway Express F59PH 566 on Thu Nov 25 12:53:34 2004.

The constitution doesn't matter with "justice" thomas and the patriot act. Knocks in the middle of the night are next.

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(22885)

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Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban

Posted by SIRTOA on Thu Nov 25 12:58:01 2004, in response to Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Nov 25 12:54:04 2004.

I A W T P !

Well said, Chris. Happy thanksgiving.

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Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban

Posted by Mark on Thu Nov 25 12:59:28 2004, in response to Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban, posted by RJM on Thu Nov 25 12:51:57 2004.

It doesn't hurt to toss another copy in the mail to the address I provided. In theory, they'll give just as much consideration to e-mailed comments as they will to snail-mailed ones. But you can't deny that paper correspondence carries the air of "this is important to me and I mean it." I'll spot you the 37 cents.

The address again: David Goldenberg, New York City Transit Authority, 130 Livingston Street, Room 1207, Brooklyn NY 11201, 718-694-5454.

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(22887)

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Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Nov 25 13:00:30 2004, in response to NYCTA moves forward with photo ban, posted by Mark on Thu Nov 25 12:03:22 2004.


"Alternatives: Consideration was given to restricting photography, etc. of sensitive areas only. However, it was felt that a less restrictive approach would not yield the necessary security enhancements and given the nature of the activities in question enforcement of a rule which required law enforcement personnel to make a judgment of the precise subject matter being photographed would be highly problematic."

I challenge the MTA to demonstrate how banning photography would enhance security. Is there any precedent for a terrorist actually photographing a target prior to an attack anywhere in the United States? If anyone is to attack this proposal, this is the way to go.

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(22888)

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Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban

Posted by BIE on Thu Nov 25 13:01:22 2004, in response to Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Nov 25 12:54:04 2004.

Go cash another tax free dividend check instead of working for an honest living fuckwad. enough poor kids are dying in iraq defending that war criminal bu$h.

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(22889)

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Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban

Posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Thu Nov 25 13:02:50 2004, in response to Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban, posted by David of Broadway on Thu Nov 25 12:55:26 2004.

There was a stupid law that prohibited carrying any open liquid containers onto any conveyance (bus, subway, elevator or escalator). That law was removed from the Rules Of Conduct.

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(22890)

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Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban

Posted by BIE on Thu Nov 25 13:04:33 2004, in response to Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban, posted by SIRTOA on Thu Nov 25 12:56:55 2004.

They will all get locked up bu$h pwns us all

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Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban

Posted by SIRTOA on Thu Nov 25 13:07:00 2004, in response to Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban, posted by BIE on Thu Nov 25 13:01:22 2004.

War criminal? Lmao!

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Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Nov 25 13:07:15 2004, in response to Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban, posted by BIE on Thu Nov 25 12:57:09 2004.


Enough!

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Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban

Posted by SIRTOA on Thu Nov 25 13:07:45 2004, in response to Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Nov 25 13:00:30 2004.

I challenge the MTA to demonstrate how banning photography would enhance security. Is there any precedent for a terrorist actually photographing a target prior to an attack anywhere in the United States?

Absolutley not.

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(22894)

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Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban

Posted by SIRTOA on Thu Nov 25 13:08:12 2004, in response to Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban, posted by SIRTOA on Thu Nov 25 13:07:45 2004.

I meant this part. Is there any precedent for a terrorist actually photographing a target prior to an attack anywhere in the United States?

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(22895)

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Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban

Posted by SIRTOA on Thu Nov 25 13:09:26 2004, in response to Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban, posted by BIE on Thu Nov 25 13:04:33 2004.

What will get locked up? My website? HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

How about NO!

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Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban

Posted by BIE on Thu Nov 25 13:15:15 2004, in response to Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Nov 25 13:07:15 2004.

What are going to do, send bu$hs gestapo heroes after me?

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Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban

Posted by Mark on Thu Nov 25 13:15:56 2004, in response to Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban, posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Thu Nov 25 13:02:50 2004.

There was a stupid law that prohibited carrying any open liquid containers onto any conveyance (bus, subway, elevator or escalator). That law was removed from the Rules Of Conduct.

That rule is still there and a clarification is proposed as part of this amendment.

Current 1050.6.f No person shall bring or carry onto a conveyance any liquid in an open container.

Proposed 1050.6.f No person, while on a conveyance, shall possess any liquid in or consume any liquid from an open container.

Mark

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Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban

Posted by BIE on Thu Nov 25 13:17:44 2004, in response to Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban, posted by SIRTOA on Thu Nov 25 13:09:26 2004.

I forgot, you are a member of the party of privledge. That will not save you. (they may give you the courtesy of a warning, that's all)

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(22902)

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Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban

Posted by BIE on Thu Nov 25 13:22:37 2004, in response to NYCTA moves forward with photo ban, posted by Mark on Thu Nov 25 12:03:22 2004.

Keep flames over on the OT Board.

http://www.subchat.com/otchat/read.asp?Id=4113

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Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Nov 25 13:23:10 2004, in response to Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban, posted by Mark on Thu Nov 25 12:59:28 2004.


Be polite, civil and unwavering. Make sure you check for spelling errors before you print your letter. Don't make threats and don't use profanity.

DO NOT GET POLITICAL!

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Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban

Posted by BIE on Thu Nov 25 13:28:48 2004, in response to Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Nov 25 13:23:10 2004.

True, Honey'll get you better results than vinegar but the fact is, those who really ordered this are far above giving a damn about railfans, the MTA or New York City for that matter so I wiuldn't even bother. the only people those folks care about are in the oil club. NYC can go to hell for all they care, In fact they would use it for political gain.

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Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban

Posted by Jersey Mike on Thu Nov 25 13:29:03 2004, in response to Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban, posted by Trinity Railway Express F59PH 566 on Thu Nov 25 12:54:54 2004.

I thought the NJ AG said that the photoban was not properly instituted with the public hearings and comment period.

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Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban

Posted by RJM on Thu Nov 25 13:31:13 2004, in response to Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban, posted by BIE on Thu Nov 25 13:28:48 2004.

BIE, you're not helping...

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Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban

Posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Thu Nov 25 13:31:27 2004, in response to Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban, posted by Mark on Thu Nov 25 13:15:56 2004.

They can kiss my pillows on that rule. I will still consume water or juice while inside a subway car, so as long as I discard the container into the next trash receptacle I see on the platform.

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Don't forget the passing through ban

Posted by Jersey Mike on Thu Nov 25 13:33:24 2004, in response to NYCTA moves forward with photo ban, posted by Mark on Thu Nov 25 12:03:22 2004.

Make sure you send in your complaints about that as well. passengers should not be unduely stuck in cars with less than ideal conditions.

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Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban

Posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Thu Nov 25 13:36:24 2004, in response to Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban, posted by Mark on Thu Nov 25 12:59:28 2004.

Since you posted Mr. Goldenberg's phone number, its time to give the term Black Friday, new meaning. Most likely he may be out tomorrow but there is always Black Monday. I am saving that phone number on my address book on my cell phone.

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(22911)

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Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban

Posted by David of Broadway on Thu Nov 25 14:11:55 2004, in response to Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban, posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Thu Nov 25 13:31:27 2004.

If you spill your juice on the seat next to you, will you clean it up?

If you spill your juice on the passenger next to you, will you pay the dry cleaning bills? What if that passenger is on his way to a job interview which he now must attend in sticky orange clothing?

That's why there's a ban on open containers.

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(22912)

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obtaining press credentials

Posted by mike on Thu Nov 25 14:13:40 2004, in response to NYCTA moves forward with photo ban, posted by Mark on Thu Nov 25 12:03:22 2004.

the process is described in these pages

http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/html/misc/pdfaq2.html#35
http://www.nyc.gov/html/nypd/html/dcpi/presscred.html

mike

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Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban

Posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Thu Nov 25 14:16:13 2004, in response to Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban, posted by David of Broadway on Thu Nov 25 14:11:55 2004.

If the weather is 100 degrees outside are you going to go without bottled water in the subway? The same can be said for certain food such as ice cream or pizza, but there is no ban on food consumption in any conveyance.

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(22914)

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Re: obtaining press credentials

Posted by David of Broadway on Thu Nov 25 14:16:25 2004, in response to obtaining press credentials, posted by mike on Thu Nov 25 14:13:40 2004.

Overly restrictive. Anyone who ever posts photos or articles on websites, message boards, newsgroups, and the like is a member of the press.

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Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban

Posted by David of Broadway on Thu Nov 25 14:18:10 2004, in response to Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban, posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Thu Nov 25 14:16:13 2004.

I will drink bottled water on the subway, but water dries up.

Regardless of what the rules say, eating aromatic food on the subway is incredibly rude.

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Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban

Posted by willD on Thu Nov 25 14:23:28 2004, in response to Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban, posted by SIRTOA on Thu Nov 25 13:07:00 2004.

And what would you call a person who starts a war on baseless claims? The Austrians had the assaination of Franz Ferdinand to justify their invading Serbia (at least he actually died), Hitler had Poland and their supposed border incursion, and Dubya had Iraq pegged with all them Dubya-ehm-dees that still have yet to turn up. That's a marvelous group of pariahs we're putting ourselves up there with. Perhaps next he'll try for challenging Pol Pot or even Saddam himself for cruelty.

Oh wait, been there, done that, got the Abu Ghraib tee-shirt.

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(22917)

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Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban

Posted by SIRTOA on Thu Nov 25 14:23:49 2004, in response to Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban, posted by BIE on Thu Nov 25 13:17:44 2004.

Sure.....

retard

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(22918)

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Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban

Posted by SIRTOA on Thu Nov 25 14:25:00 2004, in response to Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban, posted by willD on Thu Nov 25 14:23:28 2004.

Oh, its thanksgiving for fuck sakes. Im not starting this shit with you, Will. Get over it. Bush is here to stay for 4 years. Like it or not.

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(22919)

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Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban

Posted by Newkirk Plaza David on Thu Nov 25 14:25:43 2004, in response to Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban, posted by David of Broadway on Thu Nov 25 14:18:10 2004.

I agree it is disrespectful but I was pointing the disparity. If you ban water or non alcohol beverages in the subway or bus then you should ban food too. (there goes the thought about those kids selling candy in the subway cars.)

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Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban

Posted by RiverLINE3501 on Thu Nov 25 14:26:15 2004, in response to NYCTA moves forward with photo ban, posted by Mark on Thu Nov 25 12:03:22 2004.

Sneaky Bastards.

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(22921)

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Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban

Posted by willD on Thu Nov 25 14:27:49 2004, in response to Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban, posted by SIRTOA on Thu Nov 25 14:23:49 2004.

Just look at how they protect DeLay. At least the old Chicago democratic machine had the decency to keep their dirty laundry out of their office. But now that all them Texas hogs are running things it's all gone to shit and they're rewriting the rules to suit themselves.

But still, looking at what that one asshole Oklahoma rep did, you're just as fucked as the rest of us blue state pions if you stand against THE PARTY.

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(22922)

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Re: obtaining press credentials

Posted by Clayton on Thu Nov 25 14:30:51 2004, in response to Re: obtaining press credentials, posted by David of Broadway on Thu Nov 25 14:16:25 2004.

Only corporate media are considered the press. Independent? They couldn't give less of a shit about you.

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Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban

Posted by Fred G on Thu Nov 25 14:40:53 2004, in response to NYCTA moves forward with photo ban, posted by Mark on Thu Nov 25 12:03:22 2004.

(slapping forehead) Not this again.

Thanks for posting this, Mark. It's time to write more letters, looks like.

Your pal,
Fred

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Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Nov 25 14:46:54 2004, in response to Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban, posted by willD on Thu Nov 25 14:23:28 2004.


Another nitwit enters the fray.

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Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Thu Nov 25 14:52:13 2004, in response to Re: NYCTA moves forward with photo ban, posted by willD on Thu Nov 25 14:27:49 2004.


Just look at how they protect DeLay.

WHile no one can defend what congressional Republicans did to protect DeLay, a little perspective is needed. The rule which would have tossed DeLay had he been indicted was a self imposed rule instituted by Republicans in 1994, being part of Newt Gingrich's "Contract With America". No such rule ever existed when the Democrats were in control.

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