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| A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York (1646444) | |
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A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Jan 31 18:04:35 2026 New York University, Marron Institute of Urban Management, Transportation and Land Use Group |
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| (1646445) | |
Re: A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York |
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Posted by zac on Sat Jan 31 19:27:31 2026, in response to A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York, posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Jan 31 18:04:35 2026. Wow. A long read. And unlikely that any of it will be built, ever. Some of these things have been proposed going on 100 years now and never moved forward. Almost none of it hasn't been discussed on the various rail forums. And never mind the cost. We can't even get projects that are desperately needed built, like the NJ tunnel.I won't be holding my breath. |
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| (1646446) | |
Re: A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jan 31 19:32:32 2026, in response to A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York, posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Jan 31 18:04:35 2026.  |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York |
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Posted by Handbrake on Sat Jan 31 19:48:35 2026, in response to A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York, posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Jan 31 18:04:35 2026. The question is, where will the funding originate from to pay for any of the proposed projects? Increase the Metropolitan Commuter Transportation District (MCTD) tax on motor vehicles registration, and operator licenses to the MTA, as well as payroll taxes Metropolitan Commuter Transportation Mobility Tax (MCTMT)?The MTA is a bottomless pit of expenses. Labor is a relative small piece compared to contracts that seem to never get completed on time, substantial completion, or take years to complete the close out phase because of bureaucracy. Counties north of Poughkeepsie dodged the bullet when AMTRAK decided to increase service to Albany from NYC. Had the MTA begun serving Albany by Metro North, all the counties that that Metro North would have passed through would have become subject to the MCTD. So the idea of Metro North service Albany would have been a nice gift to vehicle owners north of Poughkeepsie. Slick |
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Re: A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Jan 31 21:04:45 2026, in response to Re: A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York, posted by Handbrake on Sat Jan 31 19:48:35 2026. I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: Never mind free buses, the fare is too damn LOW. The farebox should cover operating expenses fully. Then maybe there could be publicly-funded capital investment.Nothing is free and socialism only leads to misery. |
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| (1646452) | |
Re: A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Feb 1 02:38:39 2026, in response to Re: A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York, posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Jan 31 21:04:45 2026. Fares aren't able to cover cost of operation on ANY rapid transit system on the planet. What magic will make this possible in NYC?If you are so upset by government provision of services as a common good, are you ready for toll booths on every street and highway? Do you want fire suppression to follow Crassus' model? Should you pay a fee to law enforcement for them to investigate a burglary of your home or business? How should police price investigating a crime? FWIW, the earliest "roads" were created by the kings in order to facilitate communication with their local officials. Ordinary citizens were permitted to use these roads as the rulers figured out it was good for the economy enabling them to collect more taxes, Whether solely private capital or public investment, improving transit and housing in the City is a good goal IMHO. I think we all know that the vast over pticing of MTA, and most other public patronage distribution agency activities is an integral artefact of our political system. Frankly, the entire fare system should be abolished IMHO. |
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| (1646453) | |
Re: A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York? |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 1 04:54:55 2026, in response to Re: A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York, posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Jan 31 21:04:45 2026. Stop trying to partially imitate me, lol. |
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| (1646454) | |
Re: A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York? |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 1 04:56:30 2026, in response to Re: A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York, posted by zac on Sat Jan 31 19:27:31 2026. Some of these things have been proposed going on 100 years now and never moved forwardYep, thanks to the ever-expanding public sector. We can't even get projects that are desperately needed built, like the NJ tunnel Why not bridges? |
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| (1646456) | |
Re: A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York |
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Posted by sloth on Sun Feb 1 11:30:04 2026, in response to Re: A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York, posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Jan 31 21:04:45 2026. Use the bus network in North Brooklyn for a week, and see what you think the appropriate value of that "service" is. I think they should pay me to use it. |
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Re: A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York |
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Posted by Italianstallion on Sun Feb 1 16:21:04 2026, in response to Re: A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Feb 1 02:38:39 2026. Well said. |
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| (1646460) | |
Re: A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Feb 1 16:37:34 2026, in response to Re: A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Feb 1 02:38:39 2026. Fares aren't able to cover cost of operation on ANY rapid transit system on the planet.Not true. There are a few exceptions. Here's a link for Fare Recovery Ratio: 100% is break even; greater than 100% means a surplus and less than 100% means operating loss. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Farebox_recovery_ratio Most 100% and higher are in Asia: Hong Kong; Singapore and Japan. The notable European profitable line is London Underground. |
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| (1646461) | |
Re: A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York? |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sun Feb 1 17:22:18 2026, in response to Re: A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York?, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 1 04:56:30 2026. "Why not bridges?"It would upset views from the NIMBYS. That's why there's a Brooklyn-Battery tunnel (Hugh Carey Tunnel) instead of a Brooklyn Battery Bridge. |
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Re: A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sun Feb 1 17:25:26 2026, in response to A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York, posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Jan 31 18:04:35 2026. Overall this is just wishful thinking. The biggest wishful thinking mistake is not sending the 2nd Ave Subway to hook up with an existing line in the Bronx. |
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| (1646463) | |
Re: A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Feb 1 17:28:45 2026, in response to Re: A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Feb 1 02:38:39 2026. Sidewalks, fire suppression and law enforcement are not reasonably excludable, while mass transit is.You could charge for motor vehicle use of streets, they already do it Manhattan. Now you know why I actually support congestion pricing. That’s what a tollbooth on every street and highway would mean. Ignoring the negative social effects of removing the fare barrier from mass transit, abolishing the fare wouldn’t make mass transit cheaper, it would just redistribute the costs to others. We already have funding problems with the MTA, where Albany does not want to pony up, and upstate politicians complain about funding the city, ignoring that New York State only avoids being Mississippi because of the city’s wealth. |
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| (1646464) | |
Re: A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Feb 1 17:29:43 2026, in response to Re: A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Feb 1 16:37:34 2026. Thanks. Most people would consider those to be the gold standard of mass transit today. |
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| (1646465) | |
Re: A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Feb 1 17:30:39 2026, in response to Re: A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York, posted by sloth on Sun Feb 1 11:30:04 2026. Yeah, it isn’t going to get better if they got rid of the fare. |
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Re: A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sun Feb 1 18:20:19 2026, in response to Re: A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Feb 1 17:28:45 2026. "...with the MTA, where Albany does not want to pony up,"With Gov Hoople up for re-election, they'll "pony" up. |
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| (1646469) | |
Re: A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Feb 1 19:08:05 2026, in response to Re: A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sun Feb 1 17:25:26 2026. They need to replace the Third Avenue El. There’s no need for both the T and the Q to go across 125th. |
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Re: A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York? |
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Posted by Q4 on Sun Feb 1 20:32:29 2026, in response to Re: A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York?, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sun Feb 1 17:22:18 2026. It was always supposed to be a tunnel but Robert Moses wanted a Bridge. You are correct it was Nimby’s who didn’t want it ( of course that usually didn’t prevent Moses from getting his way) but this time the State and Federal Governments stopped him. |
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Re: A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York? |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sun Feb 1 20:55:13 2026, in response to Re: A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York?, posted by Q4 on Sun Feb 1 20:32:29 2026. There are many instances where Moses was stopped. The existence of the Brooklyn-Battery tunnel is just one of many. |
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Re: A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Feb 1 21:11:58 2026, in response to Re: A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Feb 1 16:37:34 2026. Hong Kong (before return to PRC) was supported in part by rent from rail adjacent properties. See Edge Cities by Joel Garreau.No matter the very few possible foreign examples, the US reality remains zero. |
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Re: A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Feb 1 21:20:08 2026, in response to Re: A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York, posted by Spider-Pig on Sun Feb 1 17:28:45 2026. I am reminded of a claim made by Norman Mailer when he ran for Mayor. 43& of NYS taxes were collected within the 5 boros, but only 16& was spent on NYC. So, i am well aware of the deficit sections of NYS living off NYC. In my 81 years on this planet tha same split was evident in Illinois--Chicago supports downstate. |
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Re: A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Feb 1 21:32:41 2026, in response to Re: A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York, posted by Italianstallion on Sun Feb 1 16:21:04 2026. Thank you. |
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Re: A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Feb 2 07:22:51 2026, in response to Re: A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sun Feb 1 17:25:26 2026. That's what think tanks do. They get paid to talk. |
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Re: A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Feb 2 13:34:53 2026, in response to Re: A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Feb 2 07:22:51 2026. |
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Re: A Better Quadrillion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Mon Feb 2 18:09:14 2026, in response to A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York, posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Jan 31 18:04:35 2026. Title Change |
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Re: A Better Quadrillion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Feb 2 18:38:15 2026, in response to Re: A Better Quadrillion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York, posted by Catfish 44 on Mon Feb 2 18:09:14 2026. The conceit here is that it would cost $1 billion a year to make buses free, but instead that money, provided every single year+matching federal funds, could be used to build this program over 40 years.They weren't going to get that billion for free buses anyway, so it's all moot, but it's 40 years: Ground was broken for the IRT subway in 1900. By 1940, pretty much the entire subway as it presently exists was built. If we still had the same can-do attitude we did back then, we could build an entire new subway, a "second system" if you will. |
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Re: A Better Quadrillion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Feb 2 20:48:39 2026, in response to Re: A Better Quadrillion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Feb 2 18:38:15 2026. which should happen. |
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Re: A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York |
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Posted by steamdriven on Tue Feb 3 00:49:36 2026, in response to Re: A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York, posted by Stephen Bauman on Sun Feb 1 16:37:34 2026. Japan utterly crushes it; over 100% farebox recovery on line after line.But perhaps Japan's transit vehicles are missing amenities New York City takes for granted; they lack trash, urine, and seepage of hobo excrement, and there's are not enough incidents of being pushed in front of an oncoming train. Japan should study us to understand how they're getting it wrong. |
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Re: A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Feb 3 11:02:22 2026, in response to Re: A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York, posted by steamdriven on Tue Feb 3 00:49:36 2026. What are Japanese transit workers paid & how are their benefits? Are they comparable to NYC transit workers?Just wondering |
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Re: A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Feb 3 14:54:36 2026, in response to Re: A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York, posted by steamdriven on Tue Feb 3 00:49:36 2026. So Japan claims. Have their numbers ever been audited by people outside Japan? |
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Re: A Better Quadrillion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Tue Feb 3 16:27:20 2026, in response to Re: A Better Quadrillion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Feb 2 18:38:15 2026. Yes but their advantage was building through some undeveloped areas.It’s amazing what they did from 1900 to 1904 |
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Re: A Better Quadrillion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Feb 3 18:17:53 2026, in response to Re: A Better Quadrillion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York, posted by Catfish 44 on Tue Feb 3 16:27:20 2026. The IND, however did demolish buildings on some streets in order to make those streets wide enough to build a subway underneath. In Manhattan Houston St east of 6th Ave and Church St south of Canal St are a couple of examples. In fact 6th Ave itself did not exist south of 3rd St did not exist at all until the city demolished some buildings to through route it to Canal St to allow the subway to be built underneath. |
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Re: A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York |
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Posted by steamdriven on Tue Feb 3 18:53:53 2026, in response to Re: A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Feb 3 11:02:22 2026. I don't know, but I'd be very surprised if Japan underpays their transit people. I recall a video of high-speed commuter train op seriously noting a schedule slip of less than a minute, and somehow making up the time. You won't get that from demoralized staff.Beyond that, their trains are well-patronized. With 1000 people on a train the cost of the driver isn't large. |
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Re: A Better Quadrillion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Feb 4 13:58:41 2026, in response to Re: A Better Quadrillion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York, posted by randyo on Tue Feb 3 18:17:53 2026. Funny how TBMs have made all this more expensive, suddenly. |
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Re: A Better Quadrillion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Wed Feb 4 19:21:15 2026, in response to Re: A Better Quadrillion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York, posted by randyo on Tue Feb 3 18:17:53 2026. Yes of course there are some exceptions but it’s now comparing 1920s or 30s to 2020s |
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Re: A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Wed Feb 4 19:23:36 2026, in response to Re: A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Feb 3 14:54:36 2026. Nobody is allowed in to see |
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Re: A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Feb 4 20:23:29 2026, in response to Re: A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York, posted by Catfish 44 on Wed Feb 4 19:23:36 2026. Opacity means dishonesty. |
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Re: A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Wed Feb 4 20:37:26 2026, in response to Re: A Better Billion: Expanding Transit & Housing for a More Affordable New York, posted by Olog-hai on Wed Feb 4 20:23:29 2026. I would agree. |
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