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| Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries (1573711) | |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Apr 21 19:27:47 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries, posted by Olog-hai on Wed Apr 21 19:24:51 2021. Whatever. I don't know the difference between the P32, P40, and P42. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries |
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Posted by pragmatist on Wed Apr 21 19:34:40 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries, posted by Joe V on Wed Apr 21 19:27:47 2021. Not withstanding the other items already mentioned, consider that you have around 1000 less HP, as well as some differences in HEP provisioning. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Apr 21 19:35:07 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries, posted by Joe V on Wed Apr 21 19:27:47 2021. Main difference is P40/42 has the V16 engine and DC traction while the P32AC-DM has the V12 and AC traction. Numbers indicate horsepower divided by 100, although IIRC all of the P40s got upgraded to 4,200 horses and 110 mph top speed to match the other classes; original P40 top speed was 103 mph like the F40PHs. |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Wed Apr 21 20:23:11 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by The silence on Tue Apr 20 22:14:59 2021. An automobile and a fully-loaded M-7 are not exactly in the same league, but if they can pull it off, it's fine by me. I could imagine a battery-operated M-7 charging from the third rail between East Williston and Penn Station such that it would be fully charged once it leaves third rail territory and then have enough charge to get back to East Williston. Then again, the railroad's plan is to turn the Oyster Bay branch into a shuttle to Mineola, so it's a little harder to imagine the train being able to charge fully in the short distance between East Williston and Mineola, unless they plan to lay them up somewhere near Mineola between shuttle runs. That could be doable if the charging time isn't too long and they have long headways (read: junky service). |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by pragmatist on Wed Apr 21 20:39:06 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by Andrew Saucci on Wed Apr 21 20:23:11 2021. Part of the plan includes fast charge at the far terminal, not a round trip. A round trip would be very hard to achieve without an inordinate amount of energy storage.. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Wed Apr 21 20:39:08 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by Joe V on Wed Apr 21 19:17:17 2021. absolutely first 12 cyl vs 16 cyl, compressor on P42 in rear reciprocating , a screw compressor in front of P32acdm.then of course the AC propulsion vs DC propulsion on P42. making the P42 run at 900 rpm for HEP while P32acdm can run at any speed for HEP. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Wed Apr 21 20:41:11 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries, posted by Olog-hai on Wed Apr 21 19:22:57 2021. GE being a 4 stroke is just not as cheap to overhaul , not question of wear but were to put the $$$. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Apr 21 20:52:36 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by Andrew Saucci on Wed Apr 21 20:23:11 2021. They can't make the Oyster Bay train a shuttle anymore. It will only be able to access the north station track, and there is no place to relay it. Had they configured Mineola to be like Hicksville, they could. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries |
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Posted by The Silence on Wed Apr 21 21:05:15 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries, posted by AlM on Wed Apr 21 13:31:14 2021. That stats I was using was based on a brand new Model S. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Apr 21 21:38:35 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries, posted by pragmatist on Wed Apr 21 19:34:40 2021. There's also the matter of just measuring engine horsepower versus wheel horsepower, the latter not measured too often. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries |
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Posted by pragmatist on Wed Apr 21 22:07:51 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries, posted by Olog-hai on Wed Apr 21 21:38:35 2021. In the case of the locomotive, it isn't direct or through a transmission, it generates electricity that powers traction motors, very different scenario.. power output in a loco is generally translated into watts or kilowatts, tractive effort has a whole bunch of additional factors.. but the end result is quite a bit less power available (but still adequate for the job it is called upon to perform) |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by 3-9 on Wed Apr 21 23:02:38 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by Joe V on Wed Apr 21 12:43:38 2021. Hadto have been within 10-12 years after they entered service. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by 3-9 on Wed Apr 21 23:03:49 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by Joe V on Wed Apr 21 12:45:06 2021. Haha, Vickers again. :-( |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by Jsun21 on Wed Apr 21 23:41:28 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by Dutchrailnut on Wed Apr 21 20:39:08 2021. Does the P32 use an auxiliary engine for HEP when in E-mode? |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Apr 21 23:43:54 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries, posted by Dave on Wed Apr 21 18:04:21 2021. I get more in rewards than the electricity costs. Thanks to SubChatter pragmatist! |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by 3-9 on Wed Apr 21 23:46:02 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by Jsun21 on Tue Apr 20 20:06:43 2021. It all depends on how easily the fuel vaporizes. Jet fuel/kerosene and I believe diesel doesn't vaporize easily, so it won't just explode unless you heat it enough. Gasoline evaporates pretty easily. Hydrogen is pretty much always a gas except under extreme circumstances. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Apr 22 01:24:31 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by 3-9 on Wed Apr 21 23:02:38 2021. Some time in the 1980s, the TA embarked on a program to replace the RT-5 brake system that was originally on the R-44s with an RT-2 (SMEE) or equivalent brake system of proven technology and better reliability. One train of R-44s was equipped with a conventional WABCO RT-2 brake system with cineston controllers. I never saw the train in operation bur I did see it laid up in 207 St Yd when I was trainmaster up there circa 1983. Another train was equipped with a similar system manufactured by Westcode similar to one that had been previously installed on a train of R-42s. After testing, Westcode was awarded the contract for retrofitting the cars which retained that same brake system after GOH. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Apr 22 02:21:15 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries, posted by Joe V on Wed Apr 21 09:06:46 2021. I know what you mean, but the term to me has meant a locomotive on only one end and the last car having a control cab. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Apr 22 02:24:02 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries, posted by Olog-hai on Wed Apr 21 01:55:05 2021. BTW, hydrogen in elemental gaseous form is always in the form H2; very strong covalent hydrogen bonding there. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Apr 22 02:25:34 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries, posted by Dave on Wed Apr 21 06:59:14 2021. You had a good catch of red herrings there. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Apr 22 06:18:32 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by randyo on Thu Apr 22 01:24:31 2021. Did they treat 12 R44's (388-399) any differently before they were sent to SI ? |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Thu Apr 22 09:39:03 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by Jsun21 on Wed Apr 21 23:41:28 2021. no both in Diesel and Electric mode the HEP is provided by a 800 kw inverter. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries |
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Posted by pragmatist on Thu Apr 22 10:12:48 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Apr 21 23:43:54 2021. mMst be using something like ConEd Smart Charge. Don't know if it helps you, but NYSERDA was giving some money out for installing workplace and commercial chargers. I think I was "volunteered" to teach the EVITP (electric vehicle infrastructure training program) class starting in September. This month I am auditing (to provide review) a CUNY curriculum on advanced battery energy storage concepts that they want to offer. Something I can't figure out about being retired, and having less free time...I'm doing 2 9 night classes in May and early June on alternative energy (solar, wind, fuel cells, geothermal, batteries and electric veh. and combined heatand power/cogen) 5th year electrical apprentices. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Apr 22 10:44:34 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries, posted by pragmatist on Thu Apr 22 10:12:48 2021. Exactly. I get 10¢ in rewards for every kWh charged from midnight to 8 am, but my off peak electric cost is less than 10¢. On my latest bill, it was less than 4¢! SmartCharge also gives me $5 a month just for being part of the program. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries |
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Posted by pragmatist on Thu Apr 22 11:21:08 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Apr 22 10:44:34 2021. One night of the Alternative Energy class we usually have a guest speaker from the NY Power Authority do the bulk of the night's presentation on electric vehicles (car focused) and the infrastructure involved in them. I do the last hour of the class, and cover Trucks, Buses, future use in transit, and various incentive programs. Some interesting developments in electric school buses, and using them as "battery banks" sending power back to the grid if needed, during idle times. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries |
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Posted by TransitChuckG on Thu Apr 22 11:27:11 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries, posted by pragmatist on Thu Apr 22 11:21:08 2021. Thank you, pragmatist |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Apr 22 12:24:27 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries, posted by pragmatist on Thu Apr 22 11:21:08 2021. Some interesting developments in electric school buses, and using them as "battery banks" sending power back to the grid if needed, during idle times.That sounds like a hugely expensive way for the grid to acquire backup power (unless we are talking about rare emergencies). It will seriously reduce the working lifetimes of the school bus batteries. The grid needs some very large scale reasonable battery* projects to make renewable energy practical. I am bothered by how little discussion I see about such projects. * Includes more flexibility of single-use power. For example, if you double the generating capacity of a hyrdo project, you don't add a single kwhr of energy to it, but you make the availability of those kwhrs far more flecible. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Apr 22 12:26:11 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Apr 22 10:44:34 2021. Who is paying for this? The taxpayer? (I don't necessarily object to that, provided the program is well thought out.) |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries |
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Posted by pragmatist on Thu Apr 22 14:02:33 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries, posted by AlM on Thu Apr 22 12:24:27 2021. actually, it doesn't cost out as badly as one would expect since it avoids the cost of providing power to meet peak demand only, which tends to be dirtier and more expensive. If you avoid having to build a peaker plant, and beef up grid connections for it by assuring grid stability in a given area, it is actually surprisingly economical. The buses will be cycled (discharge/charge) twice a day typically on a schoolday, occasional cycling only when needed should not be frequent enough to seriously impact lifespan, but the real world will determine how true that is.There is an enormous amount of discussion about utility scale energy storage, it is critical to widespread adaptation of renewable energy, the doesn't always shine (especially at night) and the wind doesn't always blow. Coupled with hydro, you may see pumped storage, like Lewiston (next to Niagara Falls) or Blenheim Gilboa. Energy not being used (typically at night) is used to fill a reservoir, and the water is used for power when demand is higher. It is a slight net loss in energy, since the energy used to move the water plus the losses in friction and resistance in dropping it to generate will always be greater than what you can generate, but the power to fill or pump would otherwise be wasted so you have a major gain in usable power without building another polluting plant somewhwhere. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Apr 22 14:58:12 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries, posted by pragmatist on Thu Apr 22 14:02:33 2021. Lewiston and Blenheim Gilboa already exist and are incredibly useful. They are a drop in the bucket compared to what will be needed if most of our energy needs are to be met from wind, sun, and nuclear. Where are the next 17 Lewistons and Blenheim Gilboas? |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu Apr 22 15:14:17 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries, posted by AlM on Thu Apr 22 14:58:12 2021. back in the 70s we were encouraged to runhome energy pigs--clothes, dish washers late at night when excess capacity was available. Once we have massive residential PV available, running those machines midday will be a useful maneuver. (higher end appliances and or smart house compliant machines will allow us to better balance when we use our kwh.The critical issue is getting more of the renewables installed. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries |
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Posted by pragmatist on Thu Apr 22 15:16:29 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries, posted by AlM on Thu Apr 22 14:58:12 2021. NY is pretty high on the list of hydro power generation. I'm not sure there are too many great opportunities in NY for added pumped storage. Since NY has lofty goals in offshore wind generation, I would expect the focus to be on battery storage. The 2 very large projects I am following are Ravenswood, replacing the peaker plants, and Astoria. Both are at points with existing grid connections, large baseload generation, and available land. In addition Astoria is a proposed "landing site" for one of the offshore projects in the works. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Apr 22 15:59:20 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries, posted by pragmatist on Thu Apr 22 15:16:29 2021. So what is happening in Ravenswood and Astoria?My fantasy NY hydro project is that they build a tunnel from Lake Erie to Lake Ontario for peak power. A 1 meter drop in the level of Lake Erie could provide 5 terawatt hours! Of course, then they would have to wait for the level of Lake Erie to rise again, so it's not something you can use on a regular basis. The average output of Lake Erie is only somewhere on the order of 10 gigawatts (very rough number). |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries |
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Posted by Brightonr68 on Thu Apr 22 16:46:31 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries, posted by AlM on Thu Apr 22 15:59:20 2021. You pump the water back up at night to let it sink again during the day . With wind energy peaking at useless nighttime hours , it would work as a water battery.Wind is only cheaper than natural gas when you consider all the power being uses vs 40% being thrown out as it is now . Your idea would use some of this power |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries |
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Posted by Brightonr68 on Thu Apr 22 16:47:57 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries, posted by pragmatist on Thu Apr 22 15:16:29 2021. Why can’t they use tanks on building roofs as a water battery . Pump up the water at night and let it flow down during the day to supplement building power |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Apr 22 16:57:17 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries, posted by Brightonr68 on Thu Apr 22 16:47:57 2021. Do you not realize how little power this would provide? |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Apr 22 17:15:33 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off battries, posted by Joe V on Thu Apr 22 06:18:32 2021. I couldn;t find the exact chronology of when those last R-44s went to SI, but I would suspect that they were transferred before any modifications took place. By the way unlike NYCT’s R-44s, the SI R-44s received the WABCO RT-2 package with cinestons when GOHed. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries |
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Posted by pragmatist on Thu Apr 22 18:28:22 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries, posted by AlM on Thu Apr 22 15:59:20 2021. isn't that the job of the Niagara River? |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Apr 22 20:06:19 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries, posted by pragmatist on Thu Apr 22 18:28:22 2021. The Niagara River can't deliver more water than it does. You can't just decree, OK, we'll up its flow sufficiently to drop Lake Erie by 2 cm per day.An alternative to a big tunnel, but politically much more difficult, would be to dam Lake Erie and dredge the Niagara River so that it has far higher capacity. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Apr 22 20:11:20 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Apr 22 16:57:17 2021. People have no good conception of scale.Railroad lines or cranes that carry a bunch of rocks up a hill, flywheels, storing water in old mines, melting salt in the desert with giant mirrors. All these sound like great ideas until you ask, what would a 20 GWhr, 2 GW project (the size of Blenheim Gilboa) look like? |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries |
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Posted by pragmatist on Thu Apr 22 20:12:45 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries, posted by AlM on Thu Apr 22 20:06:19 2021. Actually the river is partially regulated, and some of it is political, since Canada and the US have a treaty regarding how much water each can use for power, and how much water has to go over the falls for tourism and economic activity. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries |
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Posted by FYBklyn1959 on Thu Apr 22 22:29:47 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Apr 22 02:21:15 2021. Like many diesel commuter operations (Metrolink (LA), Tri-Rail, Coaster, etc). |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Apr 22 23:13:28 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries, posted by FYBklyn1959 on Thu Apr 22 22:29:47 2021. Yes, and even Dublin, Ireland pre-DART. These cars were originally DMUs built by AEC; they were de-engined and converted to run push-pull with 201-class locos (built by Metropolitan Vickers and themselves re-engined with EMD prime movers, which made them sound like FL9s). |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries |
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Posted by AlM on Fri Apr 23 09:23:46 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries, posted by pragmatist on Thu Apr 22 20:12:45 2021. The river is regulated but doesn't have the capacity needed to do a very large scale (bigger than Lewiston) energy storage project that makes use of the water level in Lake Erie directly. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries |
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Posted by 3-9 on Fri Apr 23 20:04:41 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Apr 22 23:13:28 2021. Another failed DMU attempt? |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Apr 24 06:39:48 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries, posted by 3-9 on Fri Apr 23 20:04:41 2021. More like an excuse to procrasatinate further on electrification, so they play. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sat Apr 24 09:10:59 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Apr 22 23:13:28 2021. Nice. Got to go to Ireland someday. Definitely on the bucket list. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Apr 24 13:03:58 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sat Apr 24 09:10:59 2021. Those trainsets last ran in the late 1980s on the restored Dublin-Maynooth commuter service. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Apr 24 13:07:28 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries, posted by 3-9 on Fri Apr 23 20:04:41 2021. If so, then nobody was listening, since all passenger trains in Ireland except electric DART, Dublin-Cork push-pulls and the "Enterprise" Dublin-Belfast trains are now DMU. |
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Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Apr 24 13:09:36 2021, in response to Re: LIRR to test retrofitting M7s to run off batteries, posted by Joe V on Sat Apr 24 06:39:48 2021. Ireland had plans to electrify from Dublin to Cork at one time.The former Harcourt Street Line (nowadays most of it being the Luas Green Line, rebuilt as such at five times the cost of keeping it open) used to use the Drumm battery electrics, getting recharged at each end of the journey, i.e. at Harcourt Street Station and Bray Station. |
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