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| Restoring the "Rapid" in "Rapid Transit" (1571694) | |
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| (1571694) | |
Restoring the "Rapid" in "Rapid Transit" |
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Posted by italianstallion on Tue Mar 23 14:22:34 2021 UPDATE: MTA New York City Transit Made Significant Subway Speed Improvements During Pandemic919 New Digital Timers on Grade Time Signals Have Now Been Installed; Nearly 300 Speed Limits Have Now Been Increased Since Launch of Initiative to Safely Increase Speeds Across the System Travel Time Has Improved Dramatically as MTA Reduces Time Trains Spend Waiting at Station Platforms Speed Work Will Result in Reduced Running Times for Customers as More New Yorkers Return to the System |
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| (1571711) | |
Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'' |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Mar 23 16:55:50 2021, in response to Restoring the "Rapid" in "Rapid Transit", posted by italianstallion on Tue Mar 23 14:22:34 2021. One of Byford's initiatives. Never would have been done without him. Everyone else in charge in NYC is looking how to make travel slower. |
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| (1571727) | |
Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'' |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Tue Mar 23 18:45:16 2021, in response to Restoring the "Rapid" in "Rapid Transit", posted by italianstallion on Tue Mar 23 14:22:34 2021. But does that mean higher speeds on express runs such as CPW? I'd say that's doubtful. |
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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| (1571731) | |
Re: Restoring the “Rapid” in “Rapid Transit”? |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Mar 23 19:05:50 2021, in response to Restoring the "Rapid" in "Rapid Transit", posted by italianstallion on Tue Mar 23 14:22:34 2021. Funny how they won't list average speeds, but top speeds at certain locations. |
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| (1571739) | |
Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'' |
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Posted by ro_jo on Tue Mar 23 20:22:23 2021, in response to Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'', posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Tue Mar 23 18:45:16 2021. Anecdotally, I've found CPW to be reasonably faster in the past few months. It seems they have fixed a few limits, and the lack of congestion at 59th helps as well.Last time I was heading southbound it felt like we were really flying. I measured the average speed between 116th and 86th to be around 40mph (not super fast). So I guess it's hard to say for sure. |
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| (1571763) | |
Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'' |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Mar 24 07:03:57 2021, in response to Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'', posted by ro_jo on Tue Mar 23 20:22:23 2021. R10's would have been enjoying that then. |
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| (1571810) | |
Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'' |
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Posted by italianstallion on Wed Mar 24 14:40:22 2021, in response to Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'', posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Mar 23 16:55:50 2021. If everyone else in MTA is looking to make travel slower, why then are they still continuing this program and touting its success? |
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| (1571818) | |
Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'' |
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Posted by Orange Blossom Special on Wed Mar 24 15:41:44 2021, in response to Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'', posted by italianstallion on Wed Mar 24 14:40:22 2021. what goobidygook. it said nothing.The numbers in the bullet points list how behind they are. • In 2020 alone, New York City Transit fixed 156 slow-clearing grade timers with an additional 14 completed in 2021. • To date, 485 slow-clearing signals have been found throughout the system, with 413 of those having been resolved. 485 found, 156 done last year. or 15% more to go. But...how many years were they faulty? • Transit has identified 663 speed limits that could potentially be raised and 581 of those locations have been evaluated by members of New York City Transit's safety and engineering teams. Of the speed limits evaluated, 279 of those have already been updated in the field, including 65 civil speed restrictions raised in 2020. They didn't even finish the eval! And how many of these speed limits stayed that were borderline and relaly could be raised? |
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| (1571880) | |
Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'' |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Wed Mar 24 19:15:31 2021, in response to Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'', posted by Joe V on Wed Mar 24 07:03:57 2021. I rode on the R-10s many, many times on the CPW express. It was pure excitement. |
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| (1571889) | |
Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'' |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Mar 24 20:14:52 2021, in response to Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'', posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Wed Mar 24 19:15:31 2021. I never did. My only thrill was a "15" express westbound with an R16.Arnines on the Queens Blvd IND were noisy and dreary. |
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| (1571953) | |
Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'' |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Thu Mar 25 19:20:02 2021, in response to Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'', posted by Joe V on Wed Mar 24 20:14:52 2021. I rode on a prewar Manhattan-bound Ethel train on May 11, 1968 that howled ass down Queens Blvd and Broadway. When we reached 36th St., the motorman goosed it and the gears sang out a resounding F# above middle C. |
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| (1572713) | |
Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'' |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Mon Apr 5 13:46:18 2021, in response to Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'', posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Thu Mar 25 19:20:02 2021. Do you have an idea of how fast the train went through 65th Street? |
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| (1572733) | |
Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'' |
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Posted by VictorM on Mon Apr 5 16:30:23 2021, in response to Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'', posted by Union Tpke on Mon Apr 5 13:46:18 2021. It's a continuous downgrade on the Manhattan bound express track from Roosevelt Av past 65 St to the bottom of ramp leading to the curve to the express tunnel under Northern Blvd. I've been on R32 E's that hit that curve at 43 MPH and didn't slow down for it. An even higher speed is probably in the 60 St tunnel where trains are said to have reached 55-60 MPH. |
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| (1572742) | |
Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'' |
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Posted by TransitChuckG on Mon Apr 5 17:19:46 2021, in response to Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'', posted by VictorM on Mon Apr 5 16:30:23 2021. An even higher speed is probably in the 60 St tunnel where trains are said to have reached 55-60 MPH.Thanks, that's a good speed! |
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| (1572749) | |
Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'' |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Mon Apr 5 18:46:58 2021, in response to Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'', posted by Union Tpke on Mon Apr 5 13:46:18 2021. I do remember it howled ass along that entire stretch. They didn't reach A-440, which is about 45 mph; I remember hearing F# above middle C, which is probably somewhere around 35. |
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| (1572765) | |
Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'' |
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Posted by SUBWAYMAN on Mon Apr 5 21:13:13 2021, in response to Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'', posted by VictorM on Mon Apr 5 16:30:23 2021. I was on an R32 E train that hit 51 MPH on the curve. It was pretty exciting! |
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| (1572766) | |
Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'' |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Mon Apr 5 21:24:29 2021, in response to Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'', posted by SUBWAYMAN on Mon Apr 5 21:13:13 2021. you read the speedometer? Cool.Another thing that will be lost to railfanning when tech trains take over. |
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| (1572769) | |
Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'' |
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Posted by K. Trout on Mon Apr 5 21:59:27 2021, in response to Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'', posted by VictorM on Mon Apr 5 16:30:23 2021. The 60 St tunnel is one of very few places on the subway where I actually feel pressure on my eardrums. I assume there's some complicated reason for this regarding air pressure differentials at high enough velocities. |
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| (1572771) | |
Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'' |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Mon Apr 5 22:12:00 2021, in response to Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'', posted by K. Trout on Mon Apr 5 21:59:27 2021. Interesting. Maybe the water pressure at that point is greatest. The water is rough there. |
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| (1572772) | |
Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'' |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Mon Apr 5 22:41:05 2021, in response to Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'', posted by K. Trout on Mon Apr 5 21:59:27 2021. I always felt it in the Steinway Tunnel going from Vernon-Jackson to GCT. Once you round that slight curve and start to dip, my ears would pop & if I was standing by the RFW, the wind resistance would push back on the storm door & whistle big time. |
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| (1572778) | |
Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'' |
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Posted by VictorM on Tue Apr 6 04:46:02 2021, in response to Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'', posted by K. Trout on Mon Apr 5 21:59:27 2021. 60th St tunnel is the deepest in the system - 113 ft below sea level. That along with the speed may explain the eardrum pressure you feel. |
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| (1572785) | |
Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'' |
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Posted by Q65A on Tue Apr 6 10:20:15 2021, in response to Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'', posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Thu Mar 25 19:20:02 2021. When those expresses hit the interlocking plant at 36th St. at speed, it sounded like cannon fire. |
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| (1572788) | |
Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'' |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Apr 6 11:03:55 2021, in response to Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'', posted by Union Tpke on Mon Apr 5 13:46:18 2021. |
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| (1572789) | |
Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'' |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Apr 6 11:04:39 2021, in response to Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'', posted by Union Tpke on Mon Apr 5 13:46:18 2021. |
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| (1572791) | |
Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'' |
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Posted by K. Trout on Tue Apr 6 13:02:28 2021, in response to Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'', posted by VictorM on Tue Apr 6 04:46:02 2021. Interesting. I never knew the relative depths. |
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| (1572801) | |
Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'' |
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Posted by Jsun21 on Tue Apr 6 15:17:16 2021, in response to Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'', posted by Orange Blossom Special on Wed Mar 24 15:41:44 2021. "To date, 485 slow-clearing signals have been found throughout the system, with 413 of those having been resolved."Wonder if the T/Os who hit those malfunctioning signals will be absolved... |
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| (1572803) | |
Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'' |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Tue Apr 6 16:19:54 2021, in response to Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'', posted by Jsun21 on Tue Apr 6 15:17:16 2021. One thing that always upset me about this topic is that the yellow-over-S ("two-shot") timers apparently did not create any sort of comfort zone for the T/Os; someone else on this board years back posted that bypassing a yellow-over-S meant somehow that the red signal following would take extra long to clear. So there would be a lot of pressure to treat the yellow-over-S almost like it was a red.IMO Ideally the yellow-over-S could be treated almost like a green so long as the train was below the posted speed, and if there was some mistake made (either by the T/O or by the signal system itself), there would still be one more block to correct it, but apparently this hasn't been the case. |
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| (1572804) | |
Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'' |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Apr 6 17:24:45 2021, in response to Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'', posted by New Flyer #857 on Tue Apr 6 16:19:54 2021. I remember seeing that situation in the Steinway Tunnel. I'm at the RFW of an R36WF & the motorman took a yellow over S GT signal a bit too fast. The next signal was solid red & the train had to be brought to a hard stop for it to clear. He was at a slow roll about 20 ft away from it when it went right to green. |
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| (1572806) | |
Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'' |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Tue Apr 6 18:31:24 2021, in response to Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'', posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Mar 23 16:55:50 2021. "You'll get there - eventually." |
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| (1572807) | |
Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'' |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Tue Apr 6 18:33:25 2021, in response to Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'', posted by Q65A on Tue Apr 6 10:20:15 2021. Back in '68, there was no interlocking plant there. |
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| (1572812) | |
Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'' |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Tue Apr 6 19:41:53 2021, in response to Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'', posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Tue Apr 6 18:33:25 2021. Still not today. Queensboro Master Tower can controls it. |
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| (1572817) | |
Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'' |
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Posted by jimmymc25 on Tue Apr 6 20:46:11 2021, in response to Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'', posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Tue Apr 6 18:31:24 2021. Same day service. |
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| (1572821) | |
Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'' |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Apr 6 20:55:30 2021, in response to Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'', posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Tue Apr 6 18:33:25 2021. There was an interlocking plant, there well into the 1970s. When I was thr T/D at Qns Plz, I had to go up to 36 St and work the machine to reroute service around a B/O train. |
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| (1572822) | |
Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'' |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Apr 6 21:03:46 2021, in response to Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'', posted by New Flyer #857 on Tue Apr 6 16:19:54 2021. There is or at least used to be a quirk in the signal system in which if the yellow over S didn’t clear to green at the exact time or just before the M/M got to it, the timing would recycle causing a delay in the red clearing. The proper operation with yellow over red GT signals was supposed to be that the M/M was supposed to operate so that the yellow over S would clear to green at the exact time the train got to it. It didn’t always work that way however. |
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| (1572830) | |
Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'' |
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Posted by Jsun21 on Wed Apr 7 01:28:17 2021, in response to Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'', posted by randyo on Tue Apr 6 21:03:46 2021. My understanding was if you passed the GT sign at the speed the Yellow S would come up green. If you were hot at the sign you had to adjust speed accordingly to clear. |
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| (1572833) | |
Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'' |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Wed Apr 7 03:05:10 2021, in response to Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'', posted by Jsun21 on Wed Apr 7 01:28:17 2021. Yes.If you pass a yellow S about 2 seconds fast, those 2 seconds are added to the time it takes for the next signal to clear. |
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| (1572834) | |
Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'' |
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Posted by TransitChuckG on Wed Apr 7 04:13:16 2021, in response to Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'', posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Apr 6 17:24:45 2021. Interesting stuff, thanks! |
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| (1572836) | |
Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'' |
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Posted by VictorM on Wed Apr 7 04:25:57 2021, in response to Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'', posted by randyo on Tue Apr 6 21:03:46 2021. That's not a mistake in the design. If it weren't for the penalty delay the T.O. could go up to twice the limit and still clear the red. |
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| (1572837) | |
Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'' |
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Posted by SUBWAYMAN on Wed Apr 7 04:42:47 2021, in response to Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'', posted by LuchAAA on Mon Apr 5 21:24:29 2021. You could see through the hinge! |
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| (1572840) | |
Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'' |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Wed Apr 7 08:07:18 2021, in response to Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'', posted by SUBWAYMAN on Wed Apr 7 04:42:47 2021. That’s true |
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| (1572841) | |
Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'' |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Wed Apr 7 08:17:09 2021, in response to Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'', posted by VictorM on Wed Apr 7 04:25:57 2021. Please elaborate.Let's say the target speed is 30. The train "fails" the first block with an average speed of 40, and so has to face the red at the end of the second block. If the train comes into that second block still at 40 then there's no way to get past the red without coming down to the 20s at some point before that red, even without any extra penalty delay. I've never been a T/O; there could definitely be something I'm not getting. |
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| (1572854) | |
Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'' |
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Posted by Jsun21 on Wed Apr 7 11:43:53 2021, in response to Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'', posted by New Flyer #857 on Wed Apr 7 08:17:09 2021. I think there is a situation where a TO could be stopped in the first circuit which starts the timing for some reason and if the meter just kept running they could take off after a long delay and face a clear into a restricted section without proving speed. But I too can't envision a circumstance where someone could come in at twice the posted speed and beat the timer, other than the way I describe. |
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| (1572868) | |
Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'' |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Apr 7 14:19:44 2021, in response to Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'', posted by Catfish 44 on Wed Apr 7 08:07:18 2021. I don’t think it’s as easy to see through the hinge on the NTTs as it was on the older corner cab equipment. |
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| (1572874) | |
Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'' |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Wed Apr 7 15:03:13 2021, in response to Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'', posted by randyo on Wed Apr 7 14:19:44 2021. I’m just thinking of R-32-42 |
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| (1572888) | |
Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'' |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Wed Apr 7 18:40:24 2021, in response to Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'', posted by randyo on Tue Apr 6 20:55:30 2021. You had that layup track, so I stand corrected. |
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| (1572906) | |
Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'' |
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Posted by VictorM on Thu Apr 8 02:26:57 2021, in response to Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'', posted by New Flyer #857 on Wed Apr 7 08:17:09 2021. From what I understand the red timer begins running at the signal before the yellow. If the train slows down enough for the yellow to change to green, there's no problem. but if it weren't for the penalty delay the red timer would continue running at its preset timer interval (which started when the train passed the the signal before the yellow) and, assuming the signals were equally spaced, the red would still clear before the train reached it even if the train were going at up to twice the speed. |
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| (1572907) | |
Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'' |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Thu Apr 8 02:56:27 2021, in response to Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'', posted by VictorM on Thu Apr 8 02:26:57 2021. I have never seen a red timer clear as you described.The train would have to pass the yellow preceding signal to activate the timer. If a train had to stop and stay 2 blocks before a timer the timer would just remain red IIRC. |
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| (1572908) | |
Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'' |
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Posted by VictorM on Thu Apr 8 03:32:35 2021, in response to Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'', posted by LuchAAA on Thu Apr 8 02:56:27 2021. I didn't say the train had to stop and stay, only that there has to be a penalty delay if the train blows past a timed yellow before it changes to green. The timer for the timed yellow has to start for some distance (I assume a signal block) before the train reaches the yellow. Otherwise how would the yellow know how fast the train is going? If a train blows past a timed yellow before it changes to green the red up ahead stays red extra long to force the T/O to slow down. The only exception I know is in the 60th St tunnel where the reds clear no matter how fast the train is going. |
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| (1572911) | |
Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'' |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu Apr 8 07:42:10 2021, in response to Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'', posted by VictorM on Thu Apr 8 03:32:35 2021. We might be just using words differently.Let's presume fully equal blocks, and that it should take 10 seconds to go through each block. Train passes a green signal and now enters block 1, now facing a yellow-over-S (and a red in the distance). Train overspeeds - it blows through block 1 in 7 seconds, so the yellow-over-S never turns green, and the red in the distance stays red. Now you enter block 2, facing the red. I would suggest that this red should still turn yellow or green (as the case may be) 10 seconds after the train enters block 2, because that would still prove that at least in block 2 the train averaged its target speed. It shouldn't take 12 or 15 seconds after the train enters block 2 because then the train has been slowed to below its target speed for no apparent reason. Even if the train entered block 2 extremely fast (triple speed for example), it would still be forced to slow down dramatically (probably a hard stop) since the red would still take 10 seconds to clear. As I see it, 2-shot is an opportunity for the train to prove itself "early in the game" so as to not have to slow all the way down in fear of getting tripped. If not, then might as well make every timer 1-shot. |
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| (1572915) | |
Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'' |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Thu Apr 8 08:47:00 2021, in response to Re: Restoring the ''Rapid'' in ''Rapid Transit'', posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu Apr 8 07:42:10 2021. Sounds like the Williamsburg Bridge. Lots of Two-Shot timers.And when the blocks are smaller and the next red is on a down grade, you really want the yellow S to clear 1 or 2 seconds in front of you even though you are losing time every time you do that. |
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