FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network

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FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network
Posted by NIMBYkiller on Tue Dec 1 19:51:13 2020 Say there was a place where nothing connected to the national network, would [what we call] subway or light rail be able to share the tracks with [what we call] commuter rail? A place like, oh I don't know, Puerto Rico? Imagine for arguments sake subway trains sharing tracks with the LIRR for a portion. Say you needed the commuter trains to get into the city center, but still needed something to serve the local communities on the same line within the city, but you didn't want to build duplicate infrastructure. Could that legally be done if it didn't connect to the national network, or would the FRA still have a stick up its ass?
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Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network
Posted by Dutchrailnut* on Tue Dec 1 20:06:29 2020, in response to FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network, posted by NIMBYkiller on Tue Dec 1 19:51:13 2020.* the moment you run commuter trains into a subway or non railroad you automatically make entire system subject to FRA rules.
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Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network
Posted by Joe V* on Tue Dec 1 20:10:23 2020, in response to Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network, posted by Dutchrailnut on Tue Dec 1 20:06:29 2020.* How did the CA&E and CNS&W get around that on CTA, which also sponsored Milwaukee Road freights ?
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Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network
Posted by NIMBYkiller* on Tue Dec 1 20:10:27 2020, in response to Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network, posted by Dutchrailnut on Tue Dec 1 20:06:29 2020.* So then what exactly makes equipment FRA governed? What exactly about commuter trains make them subject to FRA rules vs subway/light rail equipment? Is it a weight thing?
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Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network
Posted by Dutchrailnut* on Tue Dec 1 20:12:35 2020, in response to Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network, posted by NIMBYkiller on Tue Dec 1 20:10:27 2020.* part of national system of US railroads , the moment you connect a subway (not physicaly) but by service to system it becomes part of it . and I mean entire system does .
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Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network
Posted by Dutchrailnut* on Tue Dec 1 20:21:52 2020, in response to Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network, posted by NIMBYkiller on Tue Dec 1 20:10:27 2020.* Under the Federal railroad safety laws, FRA has jurisdiction over all railroads except “rapid transit operations in an urban area that are not connected to the general railroad system of transportation.” 49 U.S.C.
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Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network
Posted by NIMBYkiller* on Tue Dec 1 20:29:08 2020, in response to Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network, posted by Dutchrailnut on Tue Dec 1 20:21:52 2020.* But again, being that Puerto Rico isn't connected to the national system of US railroads or the "general railroad system of transportation" (whatever the hell that actually means), would it still fall under FRA rules?
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Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network
Posted by ro_jo* on Tue Dec 1 20:44:47 2020, in response to Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network, posted by NIMBYkiller on Tue Dec 1 20:29:08 2020.* Not that it's exactly the same, but PR never took Interstate Highway money right? That's why their drinking age is still 18. It's not exactly the same situation as we're describing here, but it does seem like there's validity in the claim that you can "escape the bounds" of the regulatory state by being physically disconnected.
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Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network
Posted by George Foelschow* on Tue Dec 1 20:50:28 2020, in response to FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network, posted by NIMBYkiller on Tue Dec 1 19:51:13 2020.* I wonder if the Alaska Railroad is under FRA jurisdiction. It is wholly within Alaska, not connected to any rail in Canada, nor obviously the national U.S. network.
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Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network
Posted by Jackson Park B Train* on Tue Dec 1 21:13:11 2020, in response to Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network, posted by Joe V on Tue Dec 1 20:10:23 2020.* there was no FRA when these arrangements were made. BTW, the freights were not MILW; they were interchanged at grade level w/ the MILW then hauled by CRT (later CTA) with their own electric freight locos and crews.
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Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network
Posted by Dave* on Tue Dec 1 21:30:53 2020, in response to Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network, posted by Dutchrailnut on Tue Dec 1 20:06:29 2020.* And light(er) rail cars that runs on railroad tracks must conform to FRA standards unless granted a waiver. In Ft. Worth, TEXRail is the first train in the U.S. to take advantage of the FRA’s revised safety standards that allow lighter trains.
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Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network
Posted by Dave* on Tue Dec 1 21:37:16 2020, in response to Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network, posted by NIMBYkiller on Tue Dec 1 20:29:08 2020.* Tren Urbano (PR's fully automated rapid transit system) rolling stock meets FRA standards.
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Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network
Posted by Dave* on Tue Dec 1 21:40:09 2020, in response to Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network, posted by George Foelschow on Tue Dec 1 20:50:28 2020.* Is is. The ARR was part of the Department of the Interior until the creation of the Department of Transportation, at which time the railroad became part of the Federal Railroad Administration. On January 5, 1985, the FRA transferred the federal government's interest in the Alaska Railroad to the Alaska Railroad Corporation.
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Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network
Posted by NIMBYkiller* on Tue Dec 1 21:58:21 2020, in response to Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network, posted by Dave on Tue Dec 1 21:37:16 2020.* Seriously!?
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Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network
Posted by NIMBYkiller* on Tue Dec 1 21:59:38 2020, in response to Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network, posted by Dave on Tue Dec 1 21:30:53 2020.* So what exactly is the situation for TEXRail. Is it time separated, or could you actually see freight and TEXRail one behind another?
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Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network
Posted by JAzumah* on Wed Dec 2 00:20:58 2020, in response to Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network, posted by NIMBYkiller on Tue Dec 1 21:59:38 2020.* Time separated.
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Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network
Posted by Jackson Park B Train* on Wed Dec 2 00:50:38 2020, in response to Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network, posted by JAzumah on Wed Dec 2 00:20:58 2020.* as wasBaltimore LR when Conrail stillserveda few customers onthe former PRR (Northern Central) ROW whichthe tookover.
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Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network
Posted by George Foelschow* on Wed Dec 2 01:06:23 2020, in response to FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network, posted by NIMBYkiller on Tue Dec 1 19:51:13 2020.* I wonder if the Alaska Railroad is under FRA jurisdiction. It is wholly within Alaska, not connected to any rail in Canada, nor obviously the national U.S. network.
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Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network
Posted by randyo* on Wed Dec 2 02:12:46 2020, in response to Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Dec 1 21:13:11 2020.* There was no FRA as such but there was a railroad division in the ICC which had the same jurisdiction and powers.
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Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network
Posted by Jackson Park B Train* on Wed Dec 2 02:31:59 2020, in response to Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network, posted by randyo on Wed Dec 2 02:12:46 2020.* yes, but clearly the mainline RR freight cars were allowed on CRT/CTA tracks. Isolation came muchlater Have we not seen pix of NYCTA subway cars on their own wheels being delivered via NH or NYC in the Bronx?
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Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network
Posted by Joe V* on Wed Dec 2 06:52:08 2020, in response to Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Dec 2 02:31:59 2020.* Yes, but we never saw regular freight cars on revenue rapid transit trackage. This is beyond physical track connections, which we always had. Even WMATA has 2 of them.
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Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network
Posted by Dave* on Wed Dec 2 07:00:16 2020, in response to Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network, posted by NIMBYkiller on Tue Dec 1 21:58:21 2020.* Yup.
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Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network
Posted by DieselBusFan* on Wed Dec 2 07:53:24 2020, in response to FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network, posted by NIMBYkiller on Tue Dec 1 19:51:13 2020.* The River Line between Camden and Trenton in NJ is an example of "time separation" where diesel light rail trains can run while freight operations take place at night.
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Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network
Posted by Sand Box John* on Wed Dec 2 08:28:16 2020, in response to Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network, posted by Joe V on Wed Dec 2 06:52:08 2020.* Yes, but we never saw regular freight cars on revenue rapid transit trackage. This is beyond physical track connections, which we always had. Even WMATA has 2 of them. Technically speaking WMATA has none. The one at Greenbelt has its rails disconnected. When connected it was primarily used for taking delivery of welded rail. It was used in 2012 to take delivery of the track geometry vehicle. WMATA had 3 during its history, The one at Berentwood was severed when the Chessie System decommissioned and removed the rail from Eckington Yard, the one in Alexandria was severed when the Southern Railway closed their Alexandria facility and sold the land. John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore.
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Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network
Posted by NIMBYkiller* on Wed Dec 2 14:10:06 2020, in response to Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network, posted by Dave on Wed Dec 2 07:00:16 2020.* Where did you read that?
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Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network
Posted by randyo* on Wed Dec 2 16:20:55 2020, in response to Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network, posted by Joe V on Wed Dec 2 06:52:08 2020.* Actually, regular freight cars did use revenue rapid transit trackage her in NY. On the BMT, So Bk RR freight cars used and AFAIK still use the short section of West End Line tk in the 38 St cut between SBK trackage west of 3 Ave and the SBK trackage beneath the former Culver shuttle el structure.
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Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network
Posted by Joe V* on Wed Dec 2 16:22:04 2020, in response to Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network, posted by randyo on Wed Dec 2 16:20:55 2020.* Did revenue subway trains run on those tracks as well ?
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Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network
Posted by randyo* on Wed Dec 2 16:38:57 2020, in response to Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network, posted by DieselBusFan on Wed Dec 2 07:53:24 2020.* I believe the Newark Light rail has a similar agreement on the portion of the line between Franklin and Belleville.
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Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network
Posted by italianstallion* on Wed Dec 2 17:33:51 2020, in response to FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network, posted by NIMBYkiller on Tue Dec 1 19:51:13 2020.* There is no definition of "general railroad system of transportation" in the law. The FRA passenger safety rules apply to both passenger services in the "general railroad system of transportation", as well as commuter service provided on Class 1, 2 or 3 railroads. They do not apply to "Rapid transit operations in an urban area that are not connected to the general railroad system of transportation." I cannot tell how this all applies to Puerto Rico.
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Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network
Posted by Dutchrailnut* on Wed Dec 2 17:46:18 2020, in response to Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network, posted by italianstallion on Wed Dec 2 17:33:51 2020.* as for puerto rico , FRA compliant does not mean its under FRA regulations , only that they apply those rules as if the were .
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Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network
Posted by randyo* on Wed Dec 2 19:19:24 2020, in response to Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network, posted by Joe V on Wed Dec 2 16:22:04 2020.* I said West End which means regular revenue service trackage.
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Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network
Posted by NIMBYkiller* on Thu Dec 3 16:42:39 2020, in response to Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network, posted by Dutchrailnut on Wed Dec 2 17:46:18 2020.* So what you're saying is that there is no requirement to be FRA compliant in PR? Or just that they've chosen to follow the rules but we still don't know whether they actually need to?
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Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network
Posted by Dutchrailnut* on Thu Dec 3 17:07:36 2020, in response to Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network, posted by NIMBYkiller on Thu Dec 3 16:42:39 2020.* correct FRA compliant does not mean they are under FRA rules. its kind of legal safeguard that they comply within rules without the need too.
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Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network
Posted by NIMBYkiller* on Mon Dec 7 22:13:48 2020, in response to Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network, posted by Dutchrailnut on Thu Dec 3 17:07:36 2020.* But it still leaves my question unanswered. Are they doing it because they have to, or are they doing it because they just want to?
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Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network
Posted by Dutchrailnut* on Tue Dec 8 07:53:39 2020, in response to Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network, posted by NIMBYkiller on Mon Dec 7 22:13:48 2020.* by not doing it they would set themselves up for potential lawsuits after accidents, any court would question , why not live up to set standards.
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Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network
Posted by NIMBYkiller* on Fri Dec 11 23:07:52 2020, in response to Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network, posted by Dutchrailnut on Tue Dec 8 07:53:39 2020.* Fair enough. The actual answer I'm looking for has yet to be answered though. Is PR under FRA jurisdiction or no? I'm leaning towards no because no national network connection, but I'd love to know for sure.
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Re: FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network
Posted by northshore* on Sat Dec 12 13:25:12 2020, in response to FRA Jurisdiction outside of National Network, posted by NIMBYkiller on Tue Dec 1 19:51:13 2020.* The SIRT came under FRA regulations since it was part of the Baltimore & Ohio interstate network, When SIRTOA was sent up under the MTA, it was an Operating Authority, providing passenger service over the B & O-owned trackage. Therefore SITOA cars needed to conform to FRA Standards. When the new R-44 cars were built, they were built with modification the comply to the FRA standards. Since the B&O no longer owns the ROW, FRA requirements no longer apply.
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