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| (1559037) | |
Tuscarora Almanac for October 3 |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Sat Oct 3 14:21:49 2020 Tuscarora Almanac - October 3, 1955 - The Book of First Runs Brooklyn, New York New York City Transit Authority BMT Division This is the first day of operation of Staten Island Railway motor cars (Class ME-1) on the BMT. They ran as a #5 Culver-Nassau Street Local and consisted of cars 2904, 2921, 2922. (original nos: 329, 350, 345) Source: ERA Headlights / November, 1955 Tuscarora Almanac - October 3 - 4, 1969 - The Book of Last Runs Brooklyn, New York New York City Transit Authority BMT Division This is the last night of operation of Q-Type wooden elevated cars. It was also the last night of operation for the Myrtle Avenue El south of Broadway. The final train ran as an “MJ” Myrtle Avenue Local (BMT Rt. 11) and left Metropolitan Avenue at 11:38 PM, October 3. It left from Bridge-Jays Streets at 12:13 AM, October 4 and arrived back at Metropolitan Avenue at 12:43 AM. The consist was (S) 1619ABC,1616CBA. It was followed by an empty backup train with cars (S) 1613CBA,1610CBA. During the last rush hour these trains and two others were in operation. The consists of the other two trains was 1602CBA,1611CBA and 1620CBA,1629ABC. There were two post abandonment fan-trips, one on October 4 for the Electric Railroaders Association and another on October 5 for the Trolley Museum of New York. The consists on both trips was 1629ABC and 1616CBA. Source: New York Division Bulletin / October, 1969 Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3 |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sat Oct 3 14:50:50 2020, in response to Tuscarora Almanac for October 3, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Sat Oct 3 14:21:49 2020. IINM Big Ed Davis was the motorman on that last run. |
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[PHOTOS] Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3 |
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Posted by Bill Newkirk on Sat Oct 3 15:58:36 2020, in response to Tuscarora Almanac for October 3, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Sat Oct 3 14:21:49 2020.  The Oct 5, 1969 Fan Trip 
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3 |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Oct 3 16:15:03 2020, in response to Tuscarora Almanac for October 3, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Sat Oct 3 14:21:49 2020. Bway/Myrtle to Bridge St is railroad NORTH, NORTH, NORTH!!!!!!! |
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| (1559066) | |
Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3 |
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Posted by Express Rider on Sun Oct 4 03:44:17 2020, in response to [PHOTOS] Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3, posted by Bill Newkirk on Sat Oct 3 15:58:36 2020. I was on this trip, as were probably many others who post here.Is that Don Harold in the foreground? |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3 |
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Posted by Bill Newkirk on Sun Oct 4 06:15:08 2020, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3, posted by Express Rider on Sun Oct 4 03:44:17 2020. Is that Don Harold in the foreground?No. Bill Newkirk |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3 |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Oct 4 08:11:47 2020, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3, posted by Express Rider on Sun Oct 4 03:44:17 2020. I remember that weekend, but never rode on the unrebuilt portion. The first-ever NLCS got underway on October 4 between the Mets and Braves. It was right about that time that Intercity Bus was on strike, which meant no Northeast Coach service, which we normally took from PABT to Pompton Plains ever Saturday. We took a Lakeland bus to Lincoln Park once and and a week later rode on PATH to Newark (the only time I've ever ridden on PATH) and took a bus. There was a bus service between Newark and Butler that went through Pompton Plains. |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3 |
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Posted by Express Rider on Sun Oct 4 17:03:14 2020, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3, posted by Bill Newkirk on Sun Oct 4 06:15:08 2020. THank you for clarifying. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3 |
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Posted by r33/r36 mainline on Sun Oct 4 18:04:32 2020, in response to Tuscarora Almanac for October 3, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Sat Oct 3 14:21:49 2020. Crazy that the R32s were in service for a few years while the Myrtle Ave EL south of Broadway was a thing. |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3 |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sun Oct 4 19:38:02 2020, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Oct 4 08:11:47 2020. I remember that weekend well! I turned 21 on Oct 4th, 1969. No PM classes on Fridays for me, so I got out of St John's Univ early that day. Luckily, I had an opportunity to ride the Myrtle Ave el for 2 round trips. Then I caught an "A" train at Jay St to go home via the Port Authority Bus Terminal. I had completely forgotten about the Intercity bus strike (I took the #35 to Paramus). So, for Plan B, I rode the Shortline to my hometown. |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3 |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Oct 4 20:18:00 2020, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3, posted by Elkeeper on Sun Oct 4 19:38:02 2020. I remember the #35 route. There was a route 41 to Ridgewood. I believe our route was 30, but buses almost never displayed that sign. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3 |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Oct 4 20:46:08 2020, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3, posted by r33/r36 mainline on Sun Oct 4 18:04:32 2020. Bway/Myrtle towards Bridge St was railroad NORTH,NORTH,NORTH!!!! |
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Myrtle Avenue EL |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Mon Oct 5 09:01:21 2020, in response to Tuscarora Almanac for October 3, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Sat Oct 3 14:21:49 2020. It was a shame what happened but I suspect the MTA didn't have the money to do the level of rebuild that would have been necessary to allow for bigger and heavier cars on the line:As said before, if it were rebuilt now, I'd be looking to do it where it would run the old route over two levels of single track (save for a few areas where the tracks become level to allow for crossovers) with a portal somewhere south/railroad north of Navy Street, most likely joining the Montague Street line either at Jay Street-Metrotech or railroad north of there at Court Street. This would likely have been done where ALL remaining existing stations on that line would be extended to allow for 600' trains while the stations along the old line would be consolidated considerably since these stations would handle 600' trains. Such a line can be a full-time (W) train that can run as it does now to Astoria on weekdays and in this case to Whitehall Street on weekends/overnights. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3 |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Mon Oct 5 09:12:06 2020, in response to Tuscarora Almanac for October 3, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Sat Oct 3 14:21:49 2020. Very unfortunate about the Myrtle. Today, it would be a valuable thing. It probably was then as well, but a lack of imagination was in play. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3 |
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Posted by Q4 on Mon Oct 5 12:53:37 2020, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3, posted by MainR3664 on Mon Oct 5 09:12:06 2020. Fortified for heavier trains for a service from Upper Broadway to a rebuilt terminal at Jay Street (in an enclosed style like CI/Stillwell Avenue or to fit Metro-Tech style) would have been nice to have and useful. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue EL |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Oct 5 14:09:48 2020, in response to Myrtle Avenue EL, posted by Wallyhorse on Mon Oct 5 09:01:21 2020. Wally, your Montague St elevated/subway connector had been proposed in the 1920's, so it's nothing new. Along with the Ashland Place subway portal for the Fulton St el, the hope had been to reduce or eliminate el trains to Sands St and Park Row. |
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Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3 |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Oct 5 14:15:31 2020, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Oct 4 20:18:00 2020. I also remember the #45 bus route, that ran during rush hours on East Ridgewood Ave, Paramus Rd and Passaic St. In Teaneck, it joined the #40 bus along Route 4 to the old 168 St Intercity terminal- later on to the GWB bus terminal. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue EL |
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Posted by Peter Rosa on Mon Oct 5 18:07:50 2020, in response to Myrtle Avenue EL, posted by Wallyhorse on Mon Oct 5 09:01:21 2020. It would be useful to have today. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue EL |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Oct 5 18:20:55 2020, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue EL, posted by Elkeeper on Mon Oct 5 14:09:48 2020. According the the PSC report that I often cite, there were never any plans to connect the Myrtle with the subway at all. What was planned was building a new stub terminal at Flatbush and Myrtle with a direct stair/escalator connection the the Myrtle Av (Gold St) station of the 4 Av Subway and remove Myrtle, Lex and 5th Av el service from the Bkln Br. Fulton St if rebuilt west (RR north) of Nostrand and south (RR east) of Hinsdale St would have a connection at Ashland Pl to the subway and the remaining structure on Fulton St at Boerum Pl relocated to Adams St to the Sands St terminal. The fate of Fulton service over the Bkln Br was unclear but at the time of the report, plans for the Centre St subway to run over the Bkln Br were still in place. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue EL |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Oct 5 18:39:39 2020, in response to Myrtle Avenue EL, posted by Wallyhorse on Mon Oct 5 09:01:21 2020. A dual level structure, would be more expensive than other modifications that could have been made to allow 10 ft wide cars to operate via Myrtle. As I have mentioned many time, I was told by a reliable source that the original Myrtle structure was capable of holding any cars the NYCTS had including the D types so possibly the only thing that might have been needed was a minor strengthening of the structure as was done on the Fulton St portion of the J Line. The trusswork by the station controls on the stations N/O Bway was the main problem with operating 10 ft wide cars on that part of the line. Two alternatives were possible neither of which was cheap. One would have been to raise the el structure a few feet at the points of the station controls so that supporting steelwork could be placed beneath the trackways eliminating the need for the trusswork which could then be removed. The other would have been to construct outside platforms at all the stations between Bway and Bridge St with new stairways directly to the street. The new stairways would no longer have to pass under the trackways, allowing new steelwork to be constructed under the trackways also allowing the old trusswork to be removed and eliminating the clearance problem. The only problem with separate platforms for each direction is that it would require additional sets of station controls to be built. That would mean that either additional station agents would be needed or one side would lack facilities to buy tokens. Of course with the more modern system of Metrocards, the lack of station personnel is less critical. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3 |
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Posted by Express Rider on Mon Oct 5 18:44:34 2020, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3, posted by Q4 on Mon Oct 5 12:53:37 2020. Was Jay St. wide enough at that point to have been rebuilt as a 3 track terminal, with an platform and new side platforms? |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3 |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Oct 6 00:50:40 2020, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3, posted by Express Rider on Mon Oct 5 18:44:34 2020. Probably not, but it wouldn’t have been needed. The 2 tk island platform station was enough. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue EL |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Oct 6 12:03:46 2020, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue EL, posted by randyo on Mon Oct 5 18:20:55 2020. The demise of the Chambers St-Brooklyn Bridge route was reported in the Brooklyn Eagle (11/17/1916, p.22). That would have been around the time of the Ashland Place portal to the Fulton el was proposed. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue EL |
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Posted by Dan on Tue Oct 6 13:33:22 2020, in response to Myrtle Avenue EL, posted by Wallyhorse on Mon Oct 5 09:01:21 2020. Also remember that by 1969 the neighborhoods along Myrtle Avenue had become ghetto areas, and the Myrtle's ridership reflected that unfortunate change. Today those areas are heavily gentrified and a modernized Myrtle could have served the area well. But in 1969 the future looked bleak. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue EL |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Oct 6 13:42:34 2020, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue EL, posted by Dan on Tue Oct 6 13:33:22 2020. You still have the Sumner, Tompkins, and Marcy Houses along Myrtle.They were a factor in the diminished ridership, along with the Walt Whitman and Ingersol Houses, also along Myrtle Ave. Haven't been in that area for a while, so I do not know how far gentrification as gone on Myrtle Ave, given those projects. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3 |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Tue Oct 6 14:33:36 2020, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3, posted by MainR3664 on Mon Oct 5 09:12:06 2020. It was a vital link between Ridgewood, Queens and "Downtown" Brooklyn.So many people went shopping or for entertainment via subway. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3 |
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Posted by zac on Wed Oct 7 00:02:33 2020, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3, posted by MainR3664 on Mon Oct 5 09:12:06 2020. Sometimes I think that one of the problems was the rolling stock. If the Q cars had been something newer maybe they wouldn't have thought it so expendable as it was an operating antique. Nevermind that the Q cars were a rebuild, they were still pretty old.If the line could bear the weight of heavier cars as stated elsewhere in this thread, maybe an IRT car could've run on it. They put the R12 on the 3rd Ave in The Bronx, why not in Brooklyn? I guess it didn't save the el in The Bronx either so maybe not. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3 |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Oct 7 02:58:22 2020, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3, posted by zac on Wed Oct 7 00:02:33 2020. At one point in the 1960s I heard there was a plan to transfer some Lo-Vs to Myrtle but nothing ever came of it. A contract, R-39 was prepared for a group of cars that were supposed to be split between Myrtle and 3rd but nothing ever came of it. I haven’t seen any plans for them but I believe they would have been an IRT sized R-38. By the time the contract was being prepared, the TA probably saw the handwriting on the wall and with ridership on both els down, declined to place the order. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3 |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Oct 7 02:58:36 2020, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3, posted by zac on Wed Oct 7 00:02:33 2020. At one point in the 1960s I heard there was a plan to transfer some Lo-Vs to Myrtle but nothing ever came of it. A contract, R-39 was prepared for a group of cars that were supposed to be split between Myrtle and 3rd but nothing ever came of it. I haven’t seen any plans for them but I believe they would have been an IRT sized R-38. By the time the contract was being prepared, the TA probably saw the handwriting on the wall and with ridership on both els down, declined to place the order. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue EL |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Wed Oct 7 11:04:44 2020, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue EL, posted by randyo on Mon Oct 5 18:39:39 2020. I was thinking more in terms of the narrow streets down there. That was specifically why I was thinking with limited exceptions single tracks on two levels. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3 |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Oct 7 12:23:48 2020, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3, posted by randyo on Wed Oct 7 02:58:36 2020. It seems to me that the Myrtle Ave el pillars were like sticks, compared to the structure north of Broadway- and on Broadway (Bklyn), itself. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3 |
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Posted by Q4 on Wed Oct 7 13:01:26 2020, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Oct 7 12:23:48 2020. They would have been needed to be replaced probably. I believe I read on here once that this was done on another El but I could be wrong. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3 |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Oct 7 13:15:24 2020, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3, posted by Q4 on Wed Oct 7 13:01:26 2020. I remember when living in Woodhaven in the early 80s, sometimes I'd ride the J train into Manhattan from the Woodhaven Blvd Sta. On that stretch between Crescent St & Alabama Ave over Fulton St, when my train of R16/ 27s would come to hard stop, the whole structure used to sway back & forth bigtime to the point of distraction, to say the least. I wonder if any support pillars were replaced there back then?IIRC, the Court House Sq sta on the Flushing line would sway almost as bad. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3 |
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Posted by zac on Wed Oct 7 15:23:55 2020, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Oct 7 12:23:48 2020. I was just on Myrtle Ave, underneath from Central Ave to Vanderbilt. The portion of the el that was not torn down on both sides of Broadway does look pretty rickety. Also, in response to the ridiculous suggestion that it be rebuilt as a 2 level structure because it is narrow, the street itself is actually plenty wide. Also the area is getting gentrified, especially around Pratt. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3 |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Oct 7 15:35:49 2020, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3, posted by zac on Wed Oct 7 15:23:55 2020. Those remaining el pillars could not support steel cars. They look like sticks, compared to the re-built pillars on the Broadway-Brooklyn line. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3 |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Oct 7 15:40:54 2020, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Oct 7 13:15:24 2020. Alabama Ave, farther west, had the worst sway, by far! Not only from trains, but also from any high winds. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3 |
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Posted by Q4 on Wed Oct 7 16:41:40 2020, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Oct 7 15:35:49 2020. They definitely would have had to replace those old pillars. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3 |
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Posted by zac on Wed Oct 7 18:37:21 2020, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3, posted by Q4 on Wed Oct 7 16:41:40 2020. I just happen to have some pics:  |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3 |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Oct 7 19:04:28 2020, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3, posted by Q4 on Wed Oct 7 13:01:26 2020. It was the Jamaica Line structure between Alabama and Cypress hills that was similarly constructed and eventually had the pillars replaced. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3 |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Oct 7 19:06:34 2020, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3, posted by Elkeeper on Wed Oct 7 15:35:49 2020. I was told by a reliable source that those pillars could support steel cars and since those pillars are similar if not identical to the original ones on the J Line over Fulton St I can believe it. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue EL |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Oct 7 19:11:50 2020, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue EL, posted by Wallyhorse on Wed Oct 7 11:04:44 2020. What narrow streets? Myrtle Av is wide enoufh for the 2 tk structure that ran there for many years and there was even space between the trackways for a middle track if it were ever decided to install one. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3 |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Wed Oct 7 19:53:43 2020, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3, posted by randyo on Wed Oct 7 19:06:34 2020. They should have put it to the test with a Triplex train. I read that the Fulton St. portion of the Jamaica el could not handle the axle load of the Triplexes. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3 |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Oct 8 02:13:48 2020, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Wed Oct 7 19:53:43 2020. There was at least one fan trip run on that line with the D types. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3 |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Oct 8 03:15:26 2020, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3, posted by zac on Wed Oct 7 18:37:21 2020. Yeah, those would definitely need to be replaced in a rebuild.As said, if it were re-built, you would see a lot of station consolidation and as I would do it, after Navy Street the line going underground and most likely joining the Montague Street line. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue EL |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Oct 8 03:23:04 2020, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue EL, posted by randyo on Wed Oct 7 19:11:50 2020. Ah!I had heard otherwise. If that is the case, then definitely. If you can do two side platforms (perhaps with a crossover above the tracks like is done on the Market-Frankford El in Philly where many stations you only have one manned entrance and have to cross over to the other side if you are going in the opposite direction (unless using a MetroCard/OMNYcard), then that might more easily allow for a re-build. Obviously, a lot of work on the upper level of Myrtle-Broadway would be needed to make that a usable station like it once was. As also noted, this would have stations consolidated considerably with most likely entrances at both ends (one most likely MetroCard/OMNY only) with the line as I would do it going underground after Navy Street and joining the Montague Street line. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue EL |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Oct 8 19:35:50 2020, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue EL, posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Oct 8 03:23:04 2020. I was a M/M on Myrtle and before that I spent quite a bit of my railfan time riding it and it definitely was wide enough for a third track between the 2 others. |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue EL |
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Posted by Express Rider on Fri Oct 9 08:21:30 2020, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue EL, posted by randyo on Thu Oct 8 19:35:50 2020. What were the Q's like to operate?Thank you in advance. I rode the Myrtle a few times during '67 and '68 and I'm glad I did. I took maybe about a dozen black and white photos of the Q's. |
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Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3 |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Oct 9 11:13:12 2020, in response to Re: Tuscarora Almanac for October 3, posted by Express Rider on Mon Oct 5 18:44:34 2020. Or they could have just purchased the R39s... |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue EL |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Oct 9 11:16:44 2020, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue EL, posted by randyo on Mon Oct 5 18:39:39 2020. What about ordering the R39s? That sounds to me like the most practical solution... |
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Re: Myrtle Avenue EL |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Oct 9 11:20:51 2020, in response to Re: Myrtle Avenue EL, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Oct 6 13:42:34 2020. Wouldn't the folks in those projects also need transit service? Relatedly, there's a very sad pic of the SIRT's Arlington Station on its last day of service, with the Mariner's Harbor houses being built adjacent to it? |
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