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| Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. (1547940) | |
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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Tue May 26 21:02:43 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by randyo on Tue May 26 15:14:14 2020. I couldn't help but notice that the 1948 Hagstrom's BMT map made no mention whatsoever about the Culver line. Nada. Zilzh. El Zippo. |
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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Tue May 26 21:32:12 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Elkeeper on Tue May 26 15:19:33 2020. I often wonder what will happen to SubChat, after all of us old-schoolers are gone! You and I might be gone but the Tunnelrat will always be here. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue May 26 22:07:00 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Tue May 26 21:32:12 2020. Look at some of the old "Subtalk" posts that surface here from time to time. Most of those contributors you don't see anymore. They have been replaced by the current crop. When the "current crop" moves on, they'll be replaced by a new breed of know-it alls, anal nitpickers, trolls and interesting & informed posters with quality links & great pictures. All of the above & then some (what makes this place interesting)...unless Larry pulls the plug and this all goes away. |
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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by randyo on Wed May 27 01:05:51 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Tue May 26 21:02:43 2020. Was there such a thing as a Hagstrom “BMT” map by 1948? The large fiberboard maps displayed in some of the subway stations showed the Culver as an IND line, but the small stick on at the lower left corner of the map which had some service changes listed mentioned that the Culver was under “temporary BMT operation” S/O Ditmas. |
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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by SLRT on Wed May 27 09:09:37 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Elkeeper on Tue May 26 15:19:33 2020. I'm worried that there will be fewer younger people as interested in pre-NYCTA history.I know Spider-Pig has that kind of interest, but who else? |
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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by SLRT on Wed May 27 09:11:32 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Union Tpke on Tue May 26 19:51:18 2020. I second the motion. |
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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by SLRT on Wed May 27 09:24:02 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue May 26 17:34:41 2020. My dad was a (low-foaming) railfan.My wife made me swear not to try to turn our children into foamers. |
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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Wed May 27 09:25:20 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by SLRT on Wed May 27 09:09:37 2020. I think as long as there are "before and after" pictures, there's always a chance of someone getting interested in the history of, for example, the elevateds of Brooklyn. When I first heard as a child that 5th Ave Brooklyn had an elevated, I immediately asked my grandparents, etc., who said they rode on it, everything they could tell me. It was totally natural curiosity to want to know where the tracks went once 5th Ave ended (near Flatbush) and why it was torn down.Still, other than those momentary questions, history wasn't even close to being my favorite subject in school. Yet only a few years after finishing with my schooling it's become much more fascinating for me. I think history itself is always going to be biased toward an older crowd because I think the older you get, the more aptly you see yourself as part of something bigger (as opposed to as a child when it's all about you). (Note: I speak in very, very general terms). |
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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by SLRT on Wed May 27 09:42:17 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by randyo on Tue May 26 18:16:23 2020. Well, they need the interest too.We had an old-timer at the ERA New York Division back in 1958 (a time when many railfans were running around trying to catch closing lines for the last time) who talked about how there were rail buffs in his era who mourned the end of horsecars and argued against trolleys (New York's last line went in 1917). And in Brooklyn we had a gardener who remembered steam on the surface on the Brighton! Physical things also got me interested. Why did the retaining walls change south of Church Avenue on the Brighton? Where did the ramps south of Neck Road go? If these things create a spark of interest you have a potential rail historian. It was discussions like that helped pique my interest in things that happened "before my time." |
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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by SLRT on Wed May 27 09:55:32 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by New Flyer #857 on Wed May 27 09:25:20 2020. General History wasn't my favorite in public school because it seemed to boil down to remembering dates of wars and things that led to wars. And canned ideas: "Lincoln Freed the Slaves," "Manifest Destiny," and of course, "The Shot Heard Round the World." Context was poor.And public school history (in NYC, at least) adhered pretty closely to the "50-year rule"; i.e., we didn't get much formal history newer than WWI; we knew all about Wilson and Teddy Roosevelt and Sarajevo, but the Depression and World II were considered too recent to teach a firm history. After all, we could hear all about the Depression and WWII from our parents. When my Kids went to High School I looked at their history books and found them much more comprehensive. And more interesting. |
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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by Edwards! on Wed May 27 10:01:43 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by randyo on Tue May 26 18:16:23 2020. Well, it's fellows Like you that keep the interest fresh.You ALWAYS find a new way to enhance a story. I'm sure that if my Dad were alive today, you and he would doing the same flashbacks. |
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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed May 27 10:08:30 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by randyo on Wed May 20 02:34:42 2020. No way they run a train like that, even in the 50s. |
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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by Express Rider on Wed May 27 10:32:31 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by SLRT on Wed May 27 09:11:32 2020. so do I |
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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by Express Rider on Wed May 27 10:36:19 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Union Tpke on Tue May 26 19:52:24 2020. The MTA and predecessors have never had the committment to serious znd extensive preservation of transport history like TfL and London Transport in prior years.Any preservation of NY transit history has primarliy been initiated by "old-timers" - shop floor employees who had pride in their jobs and the history behind them. |
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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by Express Rider on Wed May 27 10:40:07 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by SLRT on Wed May 27 09:55:32 2020. We've heard so much discussion (?)* about how text books are being dumbed down - it is good to hear otherwise about your kids' textbooks.*(and now I can't remember the word - hah,hah! - "CWA" I guess - comes with age) |
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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by Express Rider on Wed May 27 10:42:10 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by SLRT on Wed May 27 09:55:32 2020. Any original teaching of history seemed to be soley dependent on the individual teacher back then. I remember my eleventh grade history teacher asking us how many slaves were freed by emancipation proclamation - he told us none and we were all agahst - then he explained why. |
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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Wed May 27 12:17:58 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by SLRT on Wed May 27 09:09:37 2020. I'm worried that there will be fewer younger people as interested in pre-NYCTA history.Every generation has its own interests and challenges. I started going to ERA meeting in the early sixties. It seemed that all the older hands there were intimately familiar with the Manhattan Els. They could tell you which els stopped at which streets off the top of their head. They recalled when there were three separate rapid transit systems in New York and they knew the different operating practices of each one. To hear the guys from Brooklyn talk you would think that there were over a million trolley cars in that borough and half of them were PCC’s. Some of the grandfathers were only 12 or 14 when the “First Subway” opened in 1904. They remembered a time when there were no subways and the els ruled supreme over the Manhattan landscape. There was no internet back in those days and unfortunately many of those old-timers took their knowledge to the grave. Many lived solitary lives and had no one to pass on their papers or photos too. We were lucky that some of them wrote articles for the Bulletin and passed on their photographs to other railfans. The defining event for my generation was the opening of the Chrystie Street Subway. That was over fifty years ago. Grown men in their thirties weren’t even alive when it happened. Now at least we can put our thoughts down on paper or post them to the internet. It’s is a lot easier to get information now then it was although sometimes it may not be correct. So you have to check several sources. (You had to do this in the 50’s and 60’s as well. The older folks back then didn’t always get it right, despite what they said.) The kids today go to school and have to worry about being shot. In my day you had to go all the way to Viet-Nam to have that worry. The generation before mine had to worry about getting polio. Now we worry about getting Covid-19. Many more people read sub-chat then actually post there. We don’t know what young person will find something of interest,do research on it and become an expert. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by Mark S. Feinman on Wed May 27 14:04:54 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Wed May 27 12:17:58 2020. I have been contacted in the past by several high school and college students to be interviewed about the subway back in the 70s and 80s as a direct result of my written contributions to nycsubway.org. So there is interest by younger folk and I'm sure we'll start to see new posters here and new photographer names on railroad subjects that we haven't heard about before. (And personally, I started re-reading ERA Bulletins of the '90s to get reacquainted on topics to write about for a new edition of "the NYCTA in the 90s".) To me, the '90s seem like yesterday but 1990 was THIRTY years ago! Yipe!! I'm becoming an old timer :)--Mark |
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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Wed May 27 14:46:16 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Mark S. Feinman on Wed May 27 14:04:54 2020. I have been contacted in the past by several high school and college students to be interviewed about the subway back in the 70s and 80s as a direct result of my written contributions to nycsubway.org. So there is interest by younger folk and I'm sure we'll start to see new posters here and new photographer names on railroad subjects that we haven't heard about before. (And personally, I started re-reading ERA Bulletins of the '90s to get reacquainted on topics to write about for a new edition of "the NYCTA in the 90s".) To me, the '90s seem like yesterday but 1990 was THIRTY years ago! Yipe!! I'm becoming an old timer :) --Mark Mark: I think that you and I became acquainted on the old sub-talk board back around 2000. There were many young guys back then in their teens. Dante was on them. That was twenty years ago. All those young guys are now in their thirties. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by SLRT on Wed May 27 15:19:54 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Edwards! on Wed May 27 10:01:43 2020. Flashbacks? Yikes, that reminds me of LSD. |
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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by SLRT on Wed May 27 15:25:15 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Express Rider on Wed May 27 10:42:10 2020. You're quite right. We only heard the interesting stuff from teachers who cared.One dunce so annoyed the history teacher that he was made to write an essay on a topic that everyone thought was so obscure that we didn't know how he was he going to manage. It was "the Arab Refugee Problem in the Middle East." That teacher was about a decade ahead of his time. |
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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by SLRT on Wed May 27 15:31:35 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Wed May 27 12:17:58 2020. So you have to check several sources.For any particular fact that's going to be published I always look for at least two independent verifiable sources. By "independent" I mean sources that couldn't have simply copied from each others. |
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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed May 27 17:48:52 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Wed May 27 12:17:58 2020. and now I will recite the history of our nation (whichever) begining with the lives of the prophets and continuing down to our time. (basically the intro to most "chronicles" written up until the "enlightenment"As a historian in general, I treasure both the epigraphic data (documents, maps, posters, brochures,etc), and the accounts personal and general of what happened and how. "Thucydides began his hisory..." Researching, documenting and composing a coherent history of the subway is a noble effort. |
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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed May 27 17:56:49 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Mark S. Feinman on Wed May 27 14:04:54 2020. I will note that a grad student at Cal Berkeley that I met in classes on Later Rome was fascinated by the NY Subway. There is hope. |
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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Wed May 27 20:02:32 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by randyo on Wed May 27 01:05:51 2020. My map shows the Culver line as being BMT, with a broken red line leading from Ditmas to Church Ave. |
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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by randyo on Wed May 27 21:21:54 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Wed May 27 20:02:32 2020. Some did show that and others showed the Culver as a completely IND line. |
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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by Express Rider on Thu May 28 01:32:40 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Wed May 27 20:02:32 2020. I have a Hagstrom map (1948?)* that shows the same thing.*I don't have it readily available. |
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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by Express Rider on Thu May 28 01:43:22 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by randyo on Wed May 27 21:21:54 2020. As long as different Hagstron maps, showing variable configurations of the BMT/IND at Culver/Ditmas, have that numerical and letter coding - map date should be able to be ID'd.However, the map date vs. actual ongoing constructions or plans would only be an approximate guide, since the actual construction work continued going forward concurrently with specific map being published |
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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by Express Rider on Thu May 28 03:05:19 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by randyo on Tue May 26 18:16:23 2020. "Even among current MTA employees there seems to be a total lack of knowledge of the history behind how and why things got that way"- I've had this experience too when I used to ask transit employees about operations/history. If it is just a job to someone, then they've no interest in learning about the system's past history of operaations, ROWs, rolling stock, infrastructure, etc. sad, and tragic for transit history preservation. |
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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu May 28 07:04:09 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by randyo on Tue May 26 18:16:23 2020. among current MTA employees there seems to be a total lack of knowledge of the history behind how and why things got that wayThis is true of management and especially senior management with an emphasis on "why". I believe the reason for this collective amnesia is job protection. There should be hell to pay, if current management's resource utilization were compared to that of their predecessors. |
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Re: Another BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu May 28 08:27:08 2020, in response to Re: Another BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by randyo on Fri May 22 16:32:53 2020. The 39th Street end of the line was right at the shore where the 39th Street Ferry was, south of the "First Avenue" on the roll sign.If it were me I would be hesitant to try to leave my car there for an hour plus while riding the trolley. |
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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu May 28 08:46:18 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by SLRT on Wed May 27 09:55:32 2020. Was it that the textbook(s) in use just ended 50 years before present, or was it that there was material / information that the teacher chose not to address, or was it like in my case where they either started too early in history or covered early history too in-depth that they ran out of time and June came and you were still in WW 1? |
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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu May 28 10:32:01 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by New Flyer #857 on Thu May 28 08:46:18 2020. It was policy. or so we were told. We did talk some about FDR and individual memories and events in some classes, but it was considered more like "current events": i.e., how some things happening now were affected by the near past.Think of it this way: decisions are made about how to present history, because at least political history is controversial, so it is harder to teach in the "this is what happened, period" modality. Fifty years ago from today would be 1970. You could probably teach through Nixon and Ford, but there is a lot you could say about every more recent president (Jimmy, Reagan, Bush, Bubba, Bush, Obama, Orange Man) that could be challenged,no matter which way you lean. If you're taking a political science course, that's different, but you rarely see those in the public school system. |
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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by randyo on Thu May 28 14:16:13 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Express Rider on Thu May 28 01:43:22 2020. There is supposedly a circa 1940 Hagstrom map that shows the IND subway continuing a bit into Richmond Hill past Aqueduct and it includes the much talked about 76 St station although it is shown on the map as 75 St. There is a note that reads”open 1943." |
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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by randyo on Thu May 28 14:25:41 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu May 28 07:04:09 2020. It reminds me of something I read about the comic strip ”Dilbert” with which I imagine many of you are familiar. The creator’s premise is that when you have someone in an organization who is totally incompetent and clueless, he needs to put in a place where he can do the least amount of harm, management. That seems to be the case with many transit agencies today especially the MTA here in NY. Relevant to that is one of Murphy’s laws which says that “In every organization there is someone fully capable and aware of everything that is going on. This person must be fired.” Bothe of those seem to be indicative of what is going on today. |
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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu May 28 14:28:25 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by randyo on Thu May 28 14:16:13 2020. Until maybe the end of the '60s the Hagstrom Map Company was very aggressive in depicting "extensions to come," sometimes with dates and often depicted by a dashed line.When I first moved to Long Island I bought a Suffolk County and a Nassau County Hagstrom atlas. It shows future Bethpage Parkway going way north of the traffic circle where it still ends; the LIE bypassing Riverhead out to the North Fork; NY 135 going toward the proposed bridge and connecting to Wantagh Parkway to Jones Beach and Long Beach. So Hagstron Maps (of an era) are not the most dependable notwithstanding the intentional errors. |
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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by Mark S. Feinman on Thu May 28 14:30:40 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Wed May 27 14:46:16 2020. You are correct sir!--Mark |
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Re: Another BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by randyo on Thu May 28 14:31:46 2020, in response to Re: Another BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by SLRT on Thu May 28 08:27:08 2020. The area around the Bristol St Loop wasn’t any better and at the time was probably worse. |
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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Thu May 28 14:54:03 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by SLRT on Thu May 28 10:32:01 2020. My perception when inschoolwas that they moved too slowly through time. I will say we had a "problems of democracy" elective at my HS which did deal with then current issues--I did a paper on the Bay of Pigs 3 weeks after it occurred.In US history, we did cover the long haul short haul tariff abuses which were part of the fights leading to the formation of the ICC and the various state analogs. We did not cover the National City Lines history although my senior year was when DC Transit ended streetcar service. |
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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu May 28 15:03:57 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by randyo on Thu May 28 14:25:41 2020. There's something called the Peter Principle. I've maintained that NYCT is the result of 65+ years of it running amok. |
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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by Bill Newkirk on Thu May 28 16:56:44 2020, in response to BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Dan on Tue May 19 14:02:41 2020. When did the line cease el car service and became trolleys ? 
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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu May 28 17:12:33 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Bill Newkirk on Thu May 28 16:56:44 2020. 1920. |
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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by randyo on Thu May 28 17:45:39 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu May 28 15:03:57 2020. Each person rises to his/her level of incompetence. |
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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by Bill Newkirk on Thu May 28 18:49:41 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Spider-Pig on Thu May 28 17:12:33 2020. 1920.Thanks, I guess that work train was returning from track maintenance . Bill Newkirk |
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Re: Another BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by SLRT on Fri May 29 08:39:14 2020, in response to Re: Another BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by randyo on Thu May 28 14:31:46 2020. But Bristol Street wasn't in the middle of nowhere. The 39th Street ferry landing was. At Bristol Street you were less likely to find your car jacked up with the wheels gone. Or maybe the whole car.Just my memory. |
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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by SLRT on Fri May 29 08:49:50 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Bill Newkirk on Thu May 28 16:56:44 2020. Great photo."Canarsie elevated trains terminated at Rockaway Parkway and shuttle service operated between Canarsie Shore and Rockaway Parkway with trolley cars, October 26, 1917." |
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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by TUNNELRAT on Fri May 29 09:42:09 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by SLRT on Wed May 27 09:42:17 2020. the ramps at neck road went a race track just to the east of the ROW.it crossed the lirr AT GRADE.the lirr had a terminal at the race track to the right of the BRT terminal. this was the scene of an accident when an lirr steam train T-boned A set of BRT electric gate cars and turned at least 1 of them over. |
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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by Bill Newkirk on Fri May 29 10:59:04 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by SLRT on Fri May 29 08:49:50 2020. Great photo."Canarsie elevated trains terminated at Rockaway Parkway and shuttle service operated between Canarsie Shore and Rockaway Parkway with trolley cars, October 26, 1917." I was told from a informed source that the work train pictured was returning from the sand pits since sand was needed on outdoor platforms. Makes sense, since the photo date was in February. Bill Newkirk |
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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by SLRT on Fri May 29 11:02:37 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Bill Newkirk on Fri May 29 10:59:04 2020. That really does looks like sand in that hopper. |
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Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question. |
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Posted by TUNNELRAT on Fri May 29 11:11:23 2020, in response to Re: BMT Canarsie Line history question., posted by Bill Newkirk on Thu May 28 16:56:44 2020. ERA HAS DOCUMENTATION SHOWING THAT EL SERVICE TO CARNARSIE PIER CONTINUED TO 1924.I,M GUESSING ON SPECIAL,OCCASIONS LIKE OVERFLOW CROWDS, |
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