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| Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind (1535694) | |
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| (1535694) | |
Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind |
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Posted by TransitChuckG on Fri Jan 17 08:31:45 2020 Penn Station south in cuomo's mind |
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| (1535762) | |
Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Jan 17 18:29:23 2020, in response to Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind, posted by TransitChuckG on Fri Jan 17 08:31:45 2020. He is not entirely correct about LIRR not cutting much of any service to NYPS. Far more trains will be diverted to ESA than are diverted from Brooklyn and the pair of Hunterspoint electrics to NYPS. Most of the difference will be taken up by MN Bronx service. LIRR is not planning huge service increases. There is no justification. Ronkonkoma might get 2 more trains. The operating budget is not going to magically grow. Peak commuter ridership has not grown much in 20 years. |
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Re: Penn Station South: Only in Cuomo's mind |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jan 17 18:32:06 2020, in response to Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind, posted by TransitChuckG on Fri Jan 17 08:31:45 2020. Cuomo has a mind?? |
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Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Jan 17 19:19:52 2020, in response to Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind, posted by Joe V on Fri Jan 17 18:29:23 2020. Not only that, the idea of running MN trains into NYP via the Empire Amtrak west side line would require installation (and maybe a 2nd track) of 3d rail from CP 12 on the Hudson line to NYP with necessary substations to supply the juice. Wheres' that $$$ to do that going to come from? |
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Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Jan 17 19:36:24 2020, in response to Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Jan 17 19:19:52 2020. Amtrak runs diesel until they get close the Box tunnel. Why can't MN ? |
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| (1535778) | |
Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Jan 17 19:41:01 2020, in response to Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Jan 17 19:19:52 2020. The empire connection is almost entirely two tracks now, except for the very ends.As for 3rd rail: a decent number of runs that are entirely between Croton Harmon and GCT (especially off peak/weekend) use 6 car Bombardier sets, so the need to electrify would be strongly based on whether Amtrak lets them run cab-forward into NYP. |
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Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind |
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Posted by AlM on Fri Jan 17 19:56:46 2020, in response to Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind, posted by Joe V on Fri Jan 17 19:36:24 2020. Running Croton Harmon locals, with their many stops, with diesel equipment? |
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| (1535783) | |
Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind |
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Posted by AlM on Fri Jan 17 20:01:52 2020, in response to Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Jan 17 19:41:01 2020. You're saying there are more than a negligible number of Croton Harmon locals that run with diesel equipment? I can't be sure you're wrong but that would be quite bizarre. Certainly on the Harlem and New Haven lines I have only rarely seen a diesel train that didn't go past electric territory. (I know there are a few.) I hardly ride the Hudson Line but I would be amazed. |
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| (1535784) | |
Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Jan 17 20:02:08 2020, in response to Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind, posted by AlM on Fri Jan 17 19:56:46 2020. They already do that (not local, but their semi-express trains). I'm not sure what their weekday runs are, but on weekends the trains which leave at :32 from Croton-Harmon and :49 from Grand Central are almost always diesel, making stops at:Marble Hill Spuyten Duyvil Riverdale Yonkers Hastings Dobbs Ferry Irvington Tarrytown Ossining Redirect those to NYP and the only stop losing service is Marble Hill. |
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| (1535785) | |
Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Jan 17 20:03:24 2020, in response to Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind, posted by AlM on Fri Jan 17 20:01:52 2020. Yup, 1 TPH in both directions every weekend day (again I don't ride weekdays so I can't speak for that), see my other post. |
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Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind |
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Posted by AlM on Fri Jan 17 20:09:46 2020, in response to Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Jan 17 20:03:24 2020. I am astounded.But it's the local expresses. If they did that with the real locals, service would be miserable, with all the slow accelerations out of stops. |
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| (1535796) | |
Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Jan 17 21:04:15 2020, in response to Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Jan 17 19:41:01 2020. Do those trains running between Croton-Harmon & GCT with 6 car Bombardier's you speak of run with Gennies on straight diesel or electric? |
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| (1535851) | |
Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Jan 18 10:41:33 2020, in response to Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind, posted by AlM on Fri Jan 17 20:09:46 2020. Well if they were to bring MN into NYP via the river, then the entire line will have to be electrified to overrunning standards and equipment will have to be fitted with dual shoes. |
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Re: Penn Station South: Only in Cuomo's mind |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Jan 18 10:42:15 2020, in response to Re: Penn Station South: Only in Cuomo's mind, posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jan 17 18:32:06 2020. IATP |
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| (1535856) | |
Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Jan 18 10:47:39 2020, in response to Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Jan 18 10:41:33 2020. They'll run it just as Amtrak does- on diesel and flip up shoes for over-sliding. This would come after the Gennies get replaced with Siemens. |
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Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind |
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Posted by italianstallion on Sat Jan 18 12:01:16 2020, in response to Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Jan 17 20:02:08 2020. Spuyten would also lose service. |
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| (1535862) | |
Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind |
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Posted by italianstallion on Sat Jan 18 12:03:18 2020, in response to Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind, posted by Joe V on Sat Jan 18 10:47:39 2020. How are they handling similar issues with the Hell Gate approach to Penn Station that is in planning? |
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| (1535863) | |
Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Jan 18 12:10:48 2020, in response to Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind, posted by italianstallion on Sat Jan 18 12:03:18 2020. Extend over-sliding 3rd rail to GATE in northern Queens, which is where catenary goes between 25 and 60 cycles, then use M-8's with flippable shoes, because they cannot encounter 25 cycle catenary into NYPS. |
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| (1535867) | |
Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind |
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Posted by AlM on Sat Jan 18 14:22:26 2020, in response to Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind, posted by italianstallion on Sat Jan 18 12:01:16 2020. The devil is in the details. |
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| (1535927) | |
Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Jan 19 10:07:14 2020, in response to Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind, posted by Joe V on Sat Jan 18 10:47:39 2020. No, this would require a locomotive at each end.It has to be MU equipment |
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| (1535947) | |
Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Jan 19 17:49:09 2020, in response to Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind, posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Jan 19 10:07:14 2020. Then they'll put loco at each end. I have seen Amtrak trains that are 2 5-car sets back-to-back. |
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| (1535948) | |
Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sun Jan 19 17:59:27 2020, in response to Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind, posted by Joe V on Sun Jan 19 17:49:09 2020. Metro-North dosen't have enough locos for that. |
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| (1535960) | |
Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Jan 19 18:49:38 2020, in response to Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sun Jan 19 17:59:27 2020. Cab cars? |
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| (1535963) | |
Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Jan 19 18:57:08 2020, in response to Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind, posted by randyo on Sun Jan 19 18:49:38 2020. Amtrak would not allow cab cars, they require a diesel on each end in NYP for gap protection. |
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| (1535965) | |
Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sun Jan 19 18:58:01 2020, in response to Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind, posted by randyo on Sun Jan 19 18:49:38 2020. If I understood Joe's post, he mentioned locos at each end for MN service into NYP and not cab cars. AFAIK Amtrak does not allow cab car operated trains into NYP, thus the need for locos at each end. |
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Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind |
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Posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Jan 19 19:02:03 2020, in response to Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sun Jan 19 18:58:01 2020. cab cars on catenary powered trains is ok .but cab cars on third rail powered trains is no no. |
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| (1536014) | |
Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 20 07:46:19 2020, in response to Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sun Jan 19 17:59:27 2020. They're getting new locos, sooner or later. One thing is for sure, they're not going to electrify the West Side Line, and Amtrak will not allow an operation with a 3rd railshoe-less vehicles in the lead in Penn Station. |
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| (1536016) | |
Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind |
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Posted by pragmatist on Mon Jan 20 07:52:30 2020, in response to Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind, posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 20 07:46:19 2020. Not exactly, loco with pants for cat can lead....not 100% sure, but the Empire Connection may have catenary to the end of the box. |
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| (1536018) | |
Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Jan 20 08:11:46 2020, in response to Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind, posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 20 07:46:19 2020. One thing is for sure, they're not going to electrify the West Side LineWhy is that for sure? They're planning to spend a lot of money to serve the East Bronx. |
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| (1536021) | |
Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 20 09:04:11 2020, in response to Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind, posted by AlM on Mon Jan 20 08:11:46 2020. One mile of 3rd rail to avoid 25 cycle catenary. The rest are trackwork and stations. There is no reason to electrify the west side line. |
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| (1536025) | |
Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Jan 20 09:26:25 2020, in response to Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind, posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 20 09:04:11 2020. There is no reason to electrify the west side line.Except that the alternative to electrifying it (two locomotives) is very costly too. Of course, the cheapest, and possibly most reasonable, alternative is not to offer the service at all. |
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Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind |
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Posted by pragmatist on Mon Jan 20 09:38:05 2020, in response to Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind, posted by AlM on Mon Jan 20 09:26:25 2020. The West Side line is different than the East River Tunnels. Amtrak operates single P32-DM all day long up the West Side. Not sure if they would allow MN to do it, but as an alternative I'm pretty sure there is catenary in the connection tunnel section.... |
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| (1536028) | |
Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Mon Jan 20 09:56:04 2020, in response to Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind, posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Jan 19 19:02:03 2020. How do LIRR M3 and M7 trains operate in NYP? |
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Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Jan 20 09:58:42 2020, in response to Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind, posted by Avid Reader on Mon Jan 20 09:56:04 2020. Those are MUs. Every car is a locomotive. |
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Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Mon Jan 20 10:13:37 2020, in response to Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind, posted by pragmatist on Mon Jan 20 09:38:05 2020. tunnel views. Would LIRR C-3's and NJT's Multilevels clear the west side tunnel?   
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Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 20 10:46:08 2020, in response to Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind, posted by AlM on Mon Jan 20 09:26:25 2020. "Very costly". So you think electrification is cheap. Having 2 locos was never an excuse for LIRR electrifying to Port Jeff, Speonk, or Oyster Bay, or MN to Poughkeepsie. MN will simply top and tail the trains.There is also a non-electrified track on the 4-track Hudson line. I haven't heard of any plans to do anything about that. MN is going to buy replacement locos, likely Siemens Charger dual-modes, so they'll have fleet expansion for the added service and to top and tail these trains as well. |
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Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 20 10:47:35 2020, in response to Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind, posted by pragmatist on Mon Jan 20 09:38:05 2020. The box tunnel has catenary for when the third rail loses power. It happens. |
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| (1536037) | |
Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Jan 20 11:00:51 2020, in response to Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind, posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 20 10:46:08 2020. Having 2 locos was never an excuse for LIRR electrifying to Port Jeff, Speonk, or Oyster Bay, or MN to Poughkeepsie.I thought the LIRR only uses a single locomotive for nearly all its diesel trains, but maybe I am wrong. However, I know 100% for sure that most if not all Pgh trains use only a single locomotive, located at the north end of the train. Inbound, the engineer operates the train from a cab car. Why would the 4th track on the Hudson Line need to be electrified? There are at most a few occasions on which an express electric train passes a local electric train, and they all occur during rush hour in the rush hour direction. Whatever number of locomotives MNRR chooses to buy, they would need a whole bunch more to provide 15 minute service to Penn, even if it just runs from Yonkers. Remember, all I asked was why you were sure they would not electrify. I don't deny that 15 minute rush hour service from Yonkers, using locomotives at both ends, is feasible. |
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Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Mon Jan 20 11:17:00 2020, in response to Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind, posted by AlM on Mon Jan 20 11:00:51 2020. LIRR rush hour trains to/from non-electrified territory have an additional DE (500 series engine) on the west end because Amtrak rules require it no matter how many bi-levels are in the consist. |
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| (1536045) | |
Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind |
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Posted by pragmatist on Mon Jan 20 11:19:46 2020, in response to Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind, posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 20 10:47:35 2020. Thanks for the confirmation, that's what I thought, but as often as I go through it, all I see out the windows are the walls.... |
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| (1536048) | |
Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 20 11:38:03 2020, in response to Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind, posted by AlM on Mon Jan 20 11:00:51 2020. All LIRR diesel trains to NYPS are topped-and-tailed, regardless of length.Any LIRR diesel train in excess of 6 cars requires 2 locomotives. MN plans to run some Poughkeepsie trains to NYPS. I never heard anyone say they plan to run to NYPS every 15 minutes. |
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Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind |
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Posted by pragmatist on Mon Jan 20 14:42:52 2020, in response to Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind, posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 20 11:38:03 2020. They have a bunch of cab cars for push pull non dual mode diesels that do not go into NYPS. Maybe that is what the earlier poster has seen. |
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| (1536080) | |
Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Jan 20 15:52:05 2020, in response to Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Mon Jan 20 11:17:00 2020. You mean even if they just go to HPA? I didn't know that. |
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Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Jan 20 15:53:25 2020, in response to Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind, posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 20 11:38:03 2020. OK, they could run Pgh trains to NYP by adding another engine to the one they usually use. That works. And maybe then they'd make them longer too. |
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Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Mon Jan 20 16:02:20 2020, in response to Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind, posted by AlM on Mon Jan 20 15:52:05 2020. That restriction does not apply to trains terminating at Hunters Point, just to NYP.Plus, the maximum # of bi-levels a DM handles is 6 cars. That is an LIRR rule. |
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Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 20 16:24:39 2020, in response to Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Mon Jan 20 16:02:20 2020. DM or DE max is 6 cars. It may be 5 cars on the Port Jeff branch because of the grades, but not sure. |
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Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind |
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Posted by italianstallion on Mon Jan 20 16:30:11 2020, in response to Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind, posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 20 10:46:08 2020. Where is the non-electrified track on the Hudson line? Certainly south of Yonkers all 4 tracks are electrified. |
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Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Mon Jan 20 17:56:00 2020, in response to Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind, posted by italianstallion on Mon Jan 20 16:30:11 2020. Sections of tk 1 have had the 3d rail removed shortly after the cab signals were put into service IIRC. 3d rail was ripped up on tk 1 from just south of Riverdale, left in service around the Greystone interlock, then removed again until Phillipse Manor. Its been awhile so my locations may be a little off.But the point being is that there is not continous 3d rail on the Hudson line, Tk 1 from around Riverdale to Croton-Harmon. Its been that way for about 30 years. |
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Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind |
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Posted by VictorM on Mon Jan 20 19:14:58 2020, in response to Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind, posted by italianstallion on Mon Jan 20 16:30:11 2020. According to a MN track map Richard Green posted here in 2007, the 3rd rail gaps are all on track 1 (the northbound express track), from around Mile Post 19 south of Hastings to MP 24 south of Tarrytown and from MP 26.5 at Philipse Manor to MP 32 at the Croton River.I read somewhere that MN wanted to remove all 3rd rail from track 1, but the PSC wouldn't let them. |
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Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind |
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Posted by sloth on Mon Jan 20 20:30:28 2020, in response to Re: Penn Station south-only in Cuomo's mind, posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 20 16:24:39 2020. 6 and 1 engine routinely go to Port Jeff. They sent 7 and 1 engine to Oyster Bay awhile back. It made it. Acceleration must have been piss poor. Also a cab car has made it to West Side and there are pictures to prove it. |
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