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Times Square Shuttle Station Track 4 Platform

Posted by Mitch45 on Sat Nov 16 18:46:18 2019

After many years of looking at this small, dimly lit platform from across the tracks and wondering if it was abandoned or not, I finally used it on Friday when taking the shuttle to Grand Central and back. Amazing to think that on the IRTís first day of operation over 115 years ago, this was the uptown platform for the Times Square local stop. Some of the walls seem to be boarded over. I wonder where the stairway was to get to the underpass between the platforms and how much of that underpass exists today.

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Re: Times Square Shuttle Station Track 4 Platform

Posted by G1Ravage on Sat Nov 16 19:00:30 2019, in response to Times Square Shuttle Station Track 4 Platform, posted by Mitch45 on Sat Nov 16 18:46:18 2019.

The underpass is still there. The stairs are behind one of the locked doors. It's used for storage.

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Re: Times Square Shuttle Station Track 4 Platform

Posted by zac on Sat Nov 16 19:09:14 2019, in response to Times Square Shuttle Station Track 4 Platform, posted by Mitch45 on Sat Nov 16 18:46:18 2019.

There was at one time the Times Square plaque on that wall too, but I believe it was moved upstairs to the street level entrance on the south side of 42nd betw Bway and 7th.

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[PHOTOS] Re: Times Square Shuttle Station Track 4 Platform

Posted by Bill Newkirk on Sat Nov 16 19:20:02 2019, in response to Times Square Shuttle Station Track 4 Platform, posted by Mitch45 on Sat Nov 16 18:46:18 2019.

After many years of looking at this small, dimly lit platform from across the tracks and wondering if it was abandoned or not, I finally used it on Friday when taking the shuttle to Grand Central and back. Amazing to think that on the IRTís first day of operation over 115 years ago, this was the uptown platform for the Times Square local stop. Some of the walls seem to be boarded over. I wonder where the stairway was to get to the underpass between the platforms and how much of that underpass exists today.

This is what the underpass stairway looked like before it was walled in. (Dec. 1999)
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These are the translucent "vault lights" over the underpass near Track 1. (Dec. 1999)
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Re: Times Square Shuttle Station Track 4 Platform

Posted by Bill Newkirk on Sat Nov 16 19:28:50 2019, in response to Re: Times Square Shuttle Station Track 4 Platform, posted by zac on Sat Nov 16 19:09:14 2019.

There was at one time the Times Square plaque on that wall too,
but I believe it was moved upstairs to the street level entrance on the south side of 42nd betw Bway and 7th.


That plaque was by Track 1 by the mysterious "Knickerbocker" door.
Notice the new tiled wall installed after the plaque & wall were relocated. (Aug. 1998)

image host




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Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Times Square Shuttle Station Track 4 Platform

Posted by Mitch45 on Sat Nov 16 20:05:40 2019, in response to [PHOTOS] Re: Times Square Shuttle Station Track 4 Platform, posted by Bill Newkirk on Sat Nov 16 19:20:02 2019.

When was the underpass closed?

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Re: Times Square Shuttle Station Track 4 Platform

Posted by gbs on Sat Nov 16 21:08:06 2019, in response to Re: Times Square Shuttle Station Track 4 Platform, posted by Bill Newkirk on Sat Nov 16 19:28:50 2019.


That "Knickerbocker" door is not mysterious at all. It led directly to the original Knickerbocker Hotel on the south-east corner of Broadway & 42 St. Construction began in 1903 and the hotel opened in 1906. The building is still there. After years of serving as an office building and garment company showrooms it's back as a hotel.

The Wikipedia article about the hotel is here. It has photos of the building and that door.


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Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Times Square Shuttle Station Track 4 Platform

Posted by Express Rider on Sat Nov 16 21:09:35 2019, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Times Square Shuttle Station Track 4 Platform, posted by Mitch45 on Sat Nov 16 20:05:40 2019.

Thank you for these pictures!

Closed to passengers? I don't know exactly but it was many years ago. Perhaps someone has the answer?
The underpass was, of course, part of the original Times Sq. station, so when the BMT was built underneath, the tracks just north of its station separated* to go around the underpass structure.

*I don't remember whether it was passageway was betweenn the express track, or an exp. or local track.


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Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Times Square Shuttle Station Track 4 Platform

Posted by The silence on Sat Nov 16 21:10:56 2019, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Times Square Shuttle Station Track 4 Platform, posted by Express Rider on Sat Nov 16 21:09:35 2019.

Downtown BMT local has to swing around it, moving away from the other three tracks.

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Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Times Square Shuttle Station Track 4 Platform

Posted by Express Rider on Sat Nov 16 21:24:10 2019, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Times Square Shuttle Station Track 4 Platform, posted by The silence on Sat Nov 16 21:10:56 2019.

Thank you! :)

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Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Times Square Shuttle Station Track 4 Platform

Posted by gbs on Sat Nov 16 21:58:11 2019, in response to Re: [PHOTOS] Re: Times Square Shuttle Station Track 4 Platform, posted by The silence on Sat Nov 16 21:10:56 2019.


No, the downtown BMT local dips down to get under the uptown IRT local track, but it doesn't separate from the other three. The separation to get around the IRT staircase at Times Sq is between the two express tracks, and the separation can be seen from the mezzanine above the tracks at the north end of the BMT station.

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Re: Times Square Shuttle Station Track 4 Platform

Posted by Bill Newkirk on Sun Nov 17 09:11:44 2019, in response to Re: Times Square Shuttle Station Track 4 Platform, posted by gbs on Sat Nov 16 21:08:06 2019.

Thanks for the interesting Wikipedia link.

To the casual subway rider, the Knickerbocker sign is a mystery. I wonder what's on the other side of the door.

Bill Newkirk

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Re: Times Square Shuttle Station Track 4 Platform

Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Sun Nov 17 10:55:57 2019, in response to Re: Times Square Shuttle Station Track 4 Platform, posted by Bill Newkirk on Sun Nov 17 09:11:44 2019.



To the casual subway rider, the Knickerbocker sign is a mystery. I wonder what's on the other side of the door?

It's probably the secret back entrance to the 76th Street Station. Where is the Tunnelrat when we need him?

Larry, RedbirdR33



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Re: Times Square Shuttle Station Track 4 Platform

Posted by Express Rider on Sun Nov 17 16:20:47 2019, in response to Re: Times Square Shuttle Station Track 4 Platform, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Sun Nov 17 10:55:57 2019.

An old Forgotten NY post, explored what was behind the door. IIRC some kind of storage area for the building that was formerly the hotel and now has become one once again.

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Re: Times Square Shuttle Station Track 4 Platform

Posted by 3-9 on Sun Nov 17 21:10:43 2019, in response to Re: Times Square Shuttle Station Track 4 Platform, posted by Express Rider on Sun Nov 17 16:20:47 2019.

The NY Times wrote about it several years ago, complete with a couple of pictures. Apparently, there are no plans to reopen the door.

Link


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Re: Times Square Shuttle Station Track 4 Platform

Posted by gbs on Mon Nov 18 01:22:17 2019, in response to Re: Times Square Shuttle Station Track 4 Platform, posted by Bill Newkirk on Sun Nov 17 09:11:44 2019.


I just wonder where the fare control was. The door is right off the platform, which is within the fare control area, so where did people pay to enter the subway?

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Re: Times Square Shuttle Station Track 4 Platform

Posted by Express Rider on Mon Nov 18 02:29:39 2019, in response to Re: Times Square Shuttle Station Track 4 Platform, posted by 3-9 on Sun Nov 17 21:10:43 2019.

Thanks. I will look that up. Forgotten NY had pictures of what was behind the door also. IIRC, a huge room used as a storage area.

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Re: Times Square Shuttle Station Track 4 Platform

Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Mon Nov 18 06:10:52 2019, in response to Re: Times Square Shuttle Station Track 4 Platform, posted by G1Ravage on Sat Nov 16 19:00:30 2019.

That underpass is right in between the express tracks of the BMT Broadway line. Look into the tunnel at the northern end of the Times Square station and you can see where the express tracks spread apart. That's where the underpass is.

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Re: Times Square Shuttle Station Track 4 Platform

Posted by 3-9 on Tue Nov 19 04:58:31 2019, in response to Re: Times Square Shuttle Station Track 4 Platform, posted by gbs on Mon Nov 18 01:22:17 2019.

Per the NY Times article, it was a guy at the door!

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Re: Times Square Shuttle Station Track 4 Platform

Posted by Allan on Tue Nov 19 14:22:38 2019, in response to Re: Times Square Shuttle Station Track 4 Platform, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Mon Nov 18 06:10:52 2019.

Actually, the BMT Broadway express tracks (and the uptown local track) are to the east of the underpass. The BMT southbound local track ramps downward and goes under the underpass and then ramps up to the Times Square station. This can be seen when the southbound local leaves 49th St

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Re: Times Square Shuttle Station Track 4 Platform

Posted by randyo on Tue Nov 19 18:32:30 2019, in response to Re: Times Square Shuttle Station Track 4 Platform, posted by 3-9 on Tue Nov 19 04:58:31 2019.

There might possibly have had a portable change counter similar to ones Iíve seen at heavy stations where additional station agents who canít fit in the booth are needed. And back in the day, there was also a ďticket chopperĒ where passengers deposited tickets they purchased from the agents prior to the installation of turnstiles.

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Re: Times Square Shuttle Station Track 4 Platform

Posted by VictorM on Tue Nov 19 18:33:36 2019, in response to Re: Times Square Shuttle Station Track 4 Platform, posted by Allan on Tue Nov 19 14:22:38 2019.

Check this video starting at 9:50 at 49th St:

You can see the S/B BMT local track beginning to descend just off the south end of the station at 47th St. That track rises to the same level as the other tracks at the scissors crossover between the express tracks at about 44th St, much too far north to have anything to do with shuttle crossunder just north of 42nd St. That dip was probably to clear the N/B IRT local track at the narrowest point in Times Square at 45th St.

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Re: Times Square Shuttle Station Track 4 Platform

Posted by 3-9 on Tue Nov 19 22:18:04 2019, in response to Re: Times Square Shuttle Station Track 4 Platform, posted by randyo on Tue Nov 19 18:32:30 2019.

Perfectly reasonable scenarios there.

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Re: Times Square Shuttle Station Track 4 Platform

Posted by gbs on Wed Nov 20 00:21:11 2019, in response to Re: Times Square Shuttle Station Track 4 Platform, posted by Allan on Tue Nov 19 14:22:38 2019.


The BMT southbound local track dips down to go under the uptown IRT local track. The underpass is between the two express tracks just north of the station. The split is visible from the mezzanine above the tracks.

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I stand corrected (Re: Times Square Shuttle Station Track 4 Platform)

Posted by Allan on Wed Nov 20 13:47:37 2019, in response to Re: Times Square Shuttle Station Track 4 Platform, posted by Allan on Tue Nov 19 14:22:38 2019.

I stand corrected.

I decided to do an 'onsite' inspection (at least what I can see from a Q train and public areas at 42-TS) and I saw the two express tracks separate just north of the Times Square station.



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Re: Times Square Shuttle Station Track 4 Platform

Posted by G1Ravage on Thu Nov 21 13:10:41 2019, in response to Re: Times Square Shuttle Station Track 4 Platform, posted by VictorM on Tue Nov 19 18:33:36 2019.

It took me a little while to process your explanation of why the southbound BMT local track dips down, but now it's clear. The easternmost part of the IRT tunnel south of 50 Street on the (1) line reaches Seventh Avenue and starts encroaching into the BMT's space.

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