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Airtrain to LGA

Posted by Train Dude on Fri Nov 8 09:35:06 2019

Once again, a political solution to a real problem has been proposed. Air train from the current Airtrain terminal to LGA ? Nope. That would actually provide a useful connection from JFK to LGA. Instead why not an Airtrain from Willets PT. LIRR and #7 to LGA is what is being proposed. Political solution, spend money on something.

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Re: Airtrain to LGA

Posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Nov 8 10:38:01 2019, in response to Airtrain to LGA, posted by Train Dude on Fri Nov 8 09:35:06 2019.

Better question: Why not extend the N train to LGA instead. I know that's been studied, and unlike JFK, there are no physical obstacles to access the airport grounds (i.e. the terminal is close to the street). Seriously, I do defer to your knowledge of transit. Why wasn't this plan adopted?

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Re: Airtrain to LGA

Posted by Q4 on Fri Nov 8 12:27:10 2019, in response to Re: Airtrain to LGA, posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Nov 8 10:38:01 2019.

Astoria residents and politicians are against if if you run the service past Ditmars, even if you run it over the street down to the Con Ed plant.

Running a connection that goes down Grand Central is a problem due to the Hell Gate Structure that crosses over the Grand Central

When the JFK Airtrain was first proposed, there was talk of including service to LGA. There was even a model mock-up that showed a turn-off just west of the Jamaica Airtrain Station, heading the opposite way of JFK. I believe this should be revisited with running the service over the Van Wyck or a combination of the Van Wyck to the Grand Central.

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Re: Airtrain to LGA

Posted by Train Dude on Fri Nov 8 13:29:21 2019, in response to Re: Airtrain to LGA, posted by Q4 on Fri Nov 8 12:27:10 2019.

An Airtrain extension from the existing Jamaica Terminal could run north along the Van Wyck Expressway, and then along the Grand Central parkway to LGA using the same construction that the existing Airtrain uses.

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Re: Airtrain to LGA

Posted by Train Dude on Fri Nov 8 13:32:28 2019, in response to Re: Airtrain to LGA, posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Nov 8 10:38:01 2019.

Excellent Question -

Originally there was talk of a spur from Howard Beach - A train into JFK, It failed because the MTA owns the subway while the Airport is operated by PANYNJ and they wanted sole ownership of the transportation into the airport. I presume that would be the same excuse for an extension to LGA - not to mention NIMBY opposition

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Re: Airtrain to LGA

Posted by Q4 on Fri Nov 8 13:40:49 2019, in response to Re: Airtrain to LGA, posted by Train Dude on Fri Nov 8 13:29:21 2019.

IAWTP

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Re: Airtrain to LGA

Posted by Q4 on Fri Nov 8 13:59:03 2019, in response to Re: Airtrain to LGA, posted by Train Dude on Fri Nov 8 13:32:28 2019.

Most of the funding for the JFK Airtrain was from a Passenger Facility Charge which could only be used for the betterment of the Airport and its "passengers". The use of these funds strictly prohibited making the new airport service an extension an existing service like the LIRR or NYCT to JFK.

I don't know where the funding for the LGA Airtrain is coming from but agree with your point in your earlier post about connecting it to the existing JFK Airtrain service.

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Re: Airtrain to LGA

Posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Nov 8 14:05:17 2019, in response to Re: Airtrain to LGA, posted by Q4 on Fri Nov 8 13:59:03 2019.

In other words, the separate-seat, extra-fare arrangement was already a foregone conclusion before construction began. I'm wondering how an NYCT or LIRR extension doesn't qualify as "for the betterment of the airport and its passengers", though...

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Re: Airtrain to LGA

Posted by italianstallion on Fri Nov 8 15:23:03 2019, in response to Re: Airtrain to LGA, posted by Q4 on Fri Nov 8 12:27:10 2019.

So those who think the LGA Airtrain connection to Willets Point goes the wrong way are now proposing a LGA Airtrain to Jamaica? LOL.

BTW, if the idea is to facilitate flight connections between LGA and JFK, hardly anyone makes such connections, certainly not enough to spend the money for such a connection.

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Re: Airtrain to LGA

Posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Nov 8 16:05:57 2019, in response to Re: Airtrain to LGA, posted by Train Dude on Fri Nov 8 13:32:28 2019.

That's a shame. I think at least an N extension or, as you suggest, an integration with the existing Airtrain at Jamaica (at least) would bring NYC in step with other cities that have direct or near-direct rail between their airports and CBD.

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Re: Airtrain to LGA

Posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Nov 8 16:09:55 2019, in response to Re: Airtrain to LGA, posted by italianstallion on Fri Nov 8 15:23:03 2019.

I wonder. There are quite a few passengers who change between JFK and LGA, particularly regional passengers from international flights like, say, FRA-SYR. The buses and vans between those two airports are doing a brisk business.

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Re: Airtrain to LGA

Posted by randyo on Fri Nov 8 18:25:01 2019, in response to Re: Airtrain to LGA, posted by Train Dude on Fri Nov 8 13:32:28 2019.

But wasnít the bus connection from the JFK Express an MTA operation?

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Re: Airtrain to LGA

Posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Nov 8 18:30:19 2019, in response to Re: Airtrain to LGA, posted by randyo on Fri Nov 8 18:25:01 2019.

Yes, it was.

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Re: Airtrain to LGA

Posted by FYBklyn1959 on Fri Nov 8 20:32:41 2019, in response to Re: Airtrain to LGA, posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Nov 8 16:09:55 2019.

Not exactly the same thing, but my first ever flight, at 9 years of age was JFK-CLT on an Eastern 727-25 "Whisperjet". Return flight was CLT-LGA. My mother had parked at JFK long term outbound, so we had to get the bus (not sure if it was Carey back then) back to JFK. Not sure why that itinerary, but it was kinda a last minute thing. The trip was for my mother and grandmother to attend the funeral of the man who was the president of the undergraduate college my mother graduated from. This same man was a classmate of my grandmother when she attended that same college decades earlier. Since both my mother and grandmother was going, so did I. I did not attend the services, but stayed with my grandmother's older sister who lived in the same city as the college.

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Re: Airtrain to LGA

Posted by Dave on Fri Nov 8 22:54:30 2019, in response to Re: Airtrain to LGA, posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Nov 8 16:09:55 2019.

Do you really think it's enough business to warrant the billions of dollars it would cost to build it?

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Re: Airtrain to LGA

Posted by Train Dude on Fri Nov 8 23:27:13 2019, in response to Re: Airtrain to LGA, posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Nov 8 16:09:55 2019.

When I drove a cab during my college days, one could make a fair living running the short hauls between JFK &LGA. When it got really busy, the hack inspectors didn't care if you doubled up.

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Re: Airtrain to LGA

Posted by Train Dude on Fri Nov 8 23:31:49 2019, in response to Re: Airtrain to LGA, posted by randyo on Fri Nov 8 18:25:01 2019.

Wasn't the original bus service owned by Green Bus lines until they were swallowed up? Before airtrain, Carey Bus ran shuttles from Jamaica to both airports. It seems that the Port Authority is concerned only with controlling rail service

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Re: Airtrain to LGA

Posted by TransitChuckG on Sat Nov 9 02:55:34 2019, in response to Airtrain to LGA, posted by Train Dude on Fri Nov 8 09:35:06 2019.

AirTrain to LGA

Passenger Facility Charge

Even if the NIMBYs wanted the Astoria line extension, federal law prohibits use of Airport money for direct subway/commuter rail to a airport property using PFC money (Passenger Facility Charge)

Existing services were grandfathered (such as Atlanta. When MARTA was planned, the Airport station space was included for future build .) The EWR and JFK air trains do not have a direct track connection to existing rail services .PATH's proposed extension will only go to the EWR rail station where customers must transfer to the EWR Airtrain at an extra fare .In NYC there is an extra fare for Airtrain JFK from the subway/LIRR. The fare Is doubled If you Use Airtrain JFK to go from Jamaica to Howard Beach (pay to enter at either station and pay again to exit at the other station . ) The proposed LGA airtrain at Willets Point meets requirements for use of PFCs since it will not enter LGA property.

PFCs were instituted when security was tightened at airports and can only be used for passenger space such as customs,l screening or rail service to but not entering airport property, etc. Boston and Reagan Airports are adjacent to the airport and Dulles will be adjacent to the airport. I believe Philly's line is adjacent to the Airport. MTA Maryland does not enter airport property.

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Re: Airtrain to LGA

Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sat Nov 9 03:58:45 2019, in response to Re: Airtrain to LGA, posted by TransitChuckG on Sat Nov 9 02:55:34 2019.

*PFCs were instituted when security was tightened at airports and can only be used for passenger space such as customs,l screening or rail service to but not entering airport property*

You can use federal funding to run rail service regardless of light rail, metro, or mainline into an airport terminal. The real problem is that the PFC charge can only be used for on-airport ground transportation (read airport people movers). So in a local case, PFC money can't be used to pay for an extension of the A train onto airport grounds. You can use state funding, FTA federal funds, or municipal money for that extension.

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Re: Airtrain to LGA

Posted by JayZeeBMT on Sat Nov 9 05:27:12 2019, in response to Re: Airtrain to LGA, posted by TransitChuckG on Sat Nov 9 02:55:34 2019.

SEPTA's Airport Line be runs directly to the terminals, and all the stations are integrated with the surrounding airport structures. In fact, the tracks are between the terminals and baggage claim/arrivals pick-up, and the parking garages. It's part of, rather than "adjacent to" the airport.

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Re: Airtrain to LGA

Posted by TransitChuckG on Sat Nov 9 07:52:16 2019, in response to Re: Airtrain to LGA, posted by JayZeeBMT on Sat Nov 9 05:27:12 2019.

Thank you! PHL

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Re: Airtrain to LGA

Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Nov 9 11:13:57 2019, in response to Re: Airtrain to LGA, posted by Train Dude on Fri Nov 8 13:32:28 2019.

Th PA has nothing to dew with it...
The FEDERAL funding used to accomplish this REQUIRED that it not be part of the city transit system.

EXCLUSIVE for those who are going to the haiport.


RRAOR

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(1529511)

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Re: Airtrain to LGA

Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Nov 9 11:15:36 2019, in response to Re: Airtrain to LGA, posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Nov 8 14:05:17 2019.

Because it serves people who did not ride on the airplane

Air Passengers do not want to be mixed in with plebeian passengers.

ROAR

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Re: Airtrain to LGA

Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Nov 9 11:16:41 2019, in response to Re: Airtrain to LGA, posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Nov 8 16:05:57 2019.

A subway (or railroad) extension to the airpot would be wonderful, but it will not be funded under this mechanism.

ROPAR

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Re: Airtrain to LGA

Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Nov 9 11:17:45 2019, in response to Re: Airtrain to LGA, posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Nov 8 18:30:19 2019.

Yes, but they were never funded by the airline passenger sur-charge.

ROAR

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(1529514)

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Re: Airtrain to LGA

Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Nov 9 11:25:28 2019, in response to Re: Airtrain to LGA, posted by Train Dude on Fri Nov 8 13:32:28 2019.

Th PA has nothing to dew with it...
The FEDERAL funding used to accomplish this REQUIRED that it not be part of the city transit system.

EXCLUSIVE for those who are going to the haiport.


RRAOR

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(1529515)

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Re: Airtrain to LGA

Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Nov 9 11:30:43 2019, in response to Re: Airtrain to LGA, posted by italianstallion on Fri Nov 8 15:23:03 2019.

There is no longer much of a knead to transfer from LGA to JFK because you can fly into either one from almost anywhere.

Sure you will give me examples, but they do not rate a new transit system.

From NYC using Newark airport is far easier, you can buy an NJT ticket from NYP to the airpot with just one change.

Problem is boarding trains at NYP, it is a messy knot of people until the track is announced and then the whole scrum moves at once.

Far better to enter NJT from the 8th Avenue side.

Besides. PATH may be extendxed to the airport, and with this new funding, it might well happen. This is not an expensive extension.

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Re: Airtrain to LGA

Posted by K. Trout on Sat Nov 9 12:16:43 2019, in response to Re: Airtrain to LGA, posted by italianstallion on Fri Nov 8 15:23:03 2019.

LGA to Jamaica makes more sense than Willets Point because at least Jamaica is a well-connected hub. More backtracking from much of the city, yes, but there's more options to get there from both west and east.

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Re: Airtrain to LGA

Posted by K. Trout on Sat Nov 9 12:22:10 2019, in response to Re: Airtrain to LGA, posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Nov 8 10:38:01 2019.

I wonder if the LGA Airtrain could be built to subway specifications, such that it could be turned over to or purchased by the MTA once it's paid off with the passenger facility charge? Then the Astoria line could be extended to connect to it and create a new northern Queens subway route.

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Re: Airtrain to LGA

Posted by Edwards! on Sat Nov 9 14:03:06 2019, in response to Re: Airtrain to LGA, posted by K. Trout on Sat Nov 9 12:16:43 2019.

The simple,easy plans were knock down for complex options.
The more complicated,the more expensive the project.
SAS and the LIRR ESA projects are prime examples of this thinking.

This "milking" is nothing but a ploy for job longevity.
It should Never take a subway project 20 year's to complete, unless it's a major expansion project consisting of several miles, several stations,on a vast scale like the DC Metro...or even the 8th Ave subway.

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Re: Airtrain to LGA

Posted by Edwards! on Sat Nov 9 14:08:58 2019, in response to Re: Airtrain to LGA, posted by K. Trout on Sat Nov 9 12:22:10 2019.

The MTA did have plans for a route to circumvent the Astoria issue, but chose not to build.
A LRT could have been built using current rows and roadways to Manhattan via the Triboro Bridge.

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Re: Airtrain to LGA

Posted by Edwards! on Sat Nov 9 14:12:07 2019, in response to Re: Airtrain to LGA, posted by K. Trout on Sat Nov 9 12:22:10 2019.

The MTA did have plans for a route to circumvent the Astoria issue, but chose not to build.
A LRT could have been built using current rows and roadways to Manhattan via the Triboro Bridge.
Stiffening the bridge,or even building a new span for rail only since the crossing at Hell Gate is narrow.

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Re: Airtrain to LGA

Posted by Edwards! on Sat Nov 9 14:18:16 2019, in response to Re: Airtrain to LGA, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Nov 9 11:30:43 2019.

NJT is a messy operation, especially at Pennsylvania Station.
The tight quarters, the intermingled passengers of Three rail operations...all in cramp spaces.

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Re: Airtrain to LGA

Posted by Edwards! on Sat Nov 9 14:19:05 2019, in response to Re: Airtrain to LGA, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Nov 9 11:30:43 2019.

NJT is a messy operation, especially at Pennsylvania Station.
The tight quarters, the intermingled passengers of Three rail operations...all in cramp spaces.
Too much.

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Re: Airtrain to LGA

Posted by K. Trout on Sat Nov 9 16:06:53 2019, in response to Re: Airtrain to LGA, posted by Edwards! on Sat Nov 9 14:12:07 2019.

Interesting, when was this planned?

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Re: Airtrain to LGA

Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Nov 9 16:08:19 2019, in response to Re: Airtrain to LGA, posted by Edwards! on Sat Nov 9 14:03:06 2019.

Even then there is no reason for it to take more than two years


The can put in 15 miles of interstate in a summer, why not a train?

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Re: Airtrain to LGA

Posted by pragmatist on Sat Nov 9 16:34:17 2019, in response to Re: Airtrain to LGA, posted by JayZeeBMT on Fri Nov 8 10:38:01 2019.

opposition by the Astoria community

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Re: Airtrain to LGA

Posted by randyo on Sat Nov 9 16:59:01 2019, in response to Re: Airtrain to LGA, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Nov 9 11:17:45 2019.

That isnít really pertinent to the issue. the poster mentioned that the PA wanted control of all public transportation within the airport and the was simply not the case.

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Re: Airtrain to LGA

Posted by randyo on Sat Nov 9 17:00:36 2019, in response to Re: Airtrain to LGA, posted by Train Dude on Fri Nov 8 23:31:49 2019.

That aspect of it could be the case but if Prince Andrew wanted it, he could pull enough strings to get it done despite the bi state aspect of the PA.

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Re: Airtrain to LGA

Posted by pragmatist on Sat Nov 9 17:15:26 2019, in response to Re: Airtrain to LGA, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Nov 9 11:15:36 2019.

Not totally true. A very large part of the Airtrain ridership are airport employees commuting to work. But they are connected to the airport business.

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Re: Airtrain to LGA

Posted by Joe V on Sat Nov 9 17:16:09 2019, in response to Re: Airtrain to LGA, posted by Train Dude on Fri Nov 8 23:31:49 2019.

Jet Blue had a Jamaica Station - JFK shuttle bus at one time too.

Carey went out of business on its own. Greyhound owned them in later years and fucked them up like they do to everything else they buy up (Continental Trailways, Vermont Transit, TNM&O).

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Re: Airtrain to LGA

Posted by Joe V on Sat Nov 9 17:19:08 2019, in response to Re: Airtrain to LGA, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Nov 9 11:30:43 2019.

PATH is only getting a redundant extension to the Newark Airport Rail station, which itself is to be moved further west with the monorail replacement. IMHO, that too is a stupid project.

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Re: Airtrain to LGA

Posted by Joe V on Sat Nov 9 17:24:10 2019, in response to Re: Airtrain to LGA, posted by K. Trout on Sat Nov 9 12:22:10 2019.

I don't think there is such a thing as "paid off" with the Port Authority. You can bet they will make it incompatible with the NYCT, if nothing else, go wit the linear induction bullshit.

Prince Andrew is a chicken shit when it comes to confronting NIMBY's. So we get this, not a BMT Astoria extension, and we get the LIRR 3rd track with serious and permanent design flaws at Mineola, all to avoid NIMBY's and condemnations.

Remember also a former Nassau County executive Suozzi (sp?)was a 3rd track NIMBY, now a Congressman, likely with more political clout.

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Re: Airtrain to LGA

Posted by pragmatist on Sat Nov 9 17:39:19 2019, in response to Re: Airtrain to LGA, posted by Joe V on Sat Nov 9 17:24:10 2019.

The Astoria failure goes back way before the current administrations, either state or city.

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Re: Airtrain to LGA

Posted by Joe V on Sat Nov 9 17:47:30 2019, in response to Re: Airtrain to LGA, posted by pragmatist on Sat Nov 9 17:39:19 2019.

Andrew could have brought to the front burner but chose not to.

LIRR Main Line 3rd track and/or grade crossing elimination concepts have been around since the 1960's, but kept getting shot down by NIMBY's, and not wanting a copy of the more urban-looking Babylon line. When Andrew wants something, like this and the Tappan Zee, he gets it.

Larkfield Road in East Northport was proposed for grade elimination in the 1950's and 1960's. It would have been rebuilt like NY Ave in Huntington Station. 10 local business owners shot it down. That and Laurel Road have gridlock every time a Port Jeff train rolls by, and even worse when there is a scheduled passing meet. If LIRR were proactive, they could reschedule trains and use the abandoned Greenlawn siding and platform instead where there is less traffic.

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Re: Airtrain to LGA

Posted by pragmatist on Sat Nov 9 18:00:56 2019, in response to Re: Airtrain to LGA, posted by Joe V on Sat Nov 9 17:47:30 2019.

Bringing it to the forefront would still not get it done. Long term, to really improve things, you need to add runway capacity to LGA, and that could involve space on Rikers. Bringing the train in on that side from Astoria, and connecting to an airport people mover would be optimum, but it might not be a winnable fight,

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Re: Airtrain to LGA

Posted by Joe V on Sat Nov 9 18:51:59 2019, in response to Re: Airtrain to LGA, posted by pragmatist on Sat Nov 9 18:00:56 2019.

There is sufficient demand for rail service to LGA without runway expansion.

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Re: Airtrain to LGA

Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sat Nov 9 18:57:27 2019, in response to Re: Airtrain to LGA, posted by pragmatist on Sat Nov 9 16:34:17 2019.

NIMBY opposition can be overcome. There are many examples of this happening, a few come to mind here. This one that goes back to 1917. Along Jamaica Ave. many residents & businesses screamed like hell against BMT (BRT?) El extention along Jamaica Ave. from Cypress Hills to 168th St. Reason given was that the $$$ just wasn't there to build a subway. Long story short...the El was built.

Another was opposition to the Airtrain. I remember seeing local residents living along the Van Wyck Exp demonstrating with sandwich boards reading "No Van Wyck El". They caved, somewhat,when they were promised a local station along the line.
When the final plans materialized, no local station. Area residents bitched again when they realized that they were on the receiving end of bullshit.
This time protests fell on deaf ears. Another shortened story, the Airtrain was built.
Point being, NIMBYs should not be the brick wall standing in the way of progress & the long term benefit of many.

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Re: Airtrain to LGA

Posted by pragmatist on Sat Nov 9 19:20:41 2019, in response to Re: Airtrain to LGA, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Sat Nov 9 18:57:27 2019.

Of course it can be overcome. It has been in the past and I'm sure it will be in some cases in the future. But that doesn't change what has happened in this case. Making LGA a better airport, more convenient to the CBD, and able to handle its traffic (both human and airplane) more effectively would be a long term benefit to the economy of the city. But you know that the opposition to airplane noise from added traffic woild be a huge fight that most politicians won't have the stomachto take on.

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Re: Airtrain to LGA

Posted by pragmatist on Sat Nov 9 19:23:09 2019, in response to Re: Airtrain to LGA, posted by Joe V on Sat Nov 9 18:51:59 2019.

Yes, but that doesn't change the need for it. They aren't tied together. You have 2 7000 foot runways that cross at one end and that creates too many traffic delay scenarios.

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