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Unrest

Posted by TransitChuckG on Sun Oct 20 18:58:45 2019

Unrest

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Re: Unrest

Posted by Bill Newkirk on Sun Oct 20 19:09:38 2019, in response to Unrest, posted by TransitChuckG on Sun Oct 20 18:58:45 2019.

"Earlier this month, the government increased fares to $1.17 (£0.90) for a journey during peak hours, blaming higher energy costs and a weaker peso".

Wow, $1.17 for riots ?

Bill Newkirk



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Re: Unrest

Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Oct 20 19:32:02 2019, in response to Re: Unrest, posted by Bill Newkirk on Sun Oct 20 19:09:38 2019.

That actually seems pretty high. For comparison, Mexico City subway is $0.26 USD for one ride with unlimited transfers. The rates for distanced-based Singapore MRT start at around around $0.50 USD.

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Re: Unrest

Posted by AlM on Sun Oct 20 19:39:38 2019, in response to Re: Unrest, posted by Bill Newkirk on Sun Oct 20 19:09:38 2019.

Probably a lot greater percentage of the average working class hourly wage there than $2.75 is here.



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Re: Unrest

Posted by Peter Rosa on Sun Oct 20 20:16:33 2019, in response to Unrest, posted by TransitChuckG on Sun Oct 20 18:58:45 2019.

Destroying a station to protest a fare increase doesn't make much sense to me.

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Re: Unrest

Posted by TUNNELRAT on Sun Oct 20 20:18:39 2019, in response to Re: Unrest, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Oct 20 19:32:02 2019.

-

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Re: Unrest

Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Oct 20 20:24:43 2019, in response to Re: Unrest, posted by Peter Rosa on Sun Oct 20 20:16:33 2019.

They've also set the cars on fire:



This video makes me think: man, someone should uncouple the rest of that train and get it tf out of there...

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Re: Unrest

Posted by Peter Rosa on Sun Oct 20 21:36:51 2019, in response to Unrest, posted by TransitChuckG on Sun Oct 20 18:58:45 2019.

Subway fare hikes are not the sole reason for the riots. People also are angry about the high cost of education and health care ... which sounds like a reason for riots in the US!

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(1527437)

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Re: Unrest

Posted by BILLBKLYN on Sun Oct 20 22:24:47 2019, in response to Unrest, posted by TransitChuckG on Sun Oct 20 18:58:45 2019.

Taking public transportation is a privilege, not a right. You can't pay, beat feet!

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Re: Unrest

Posted by Alan Follett on Mon Oct 21 00:15:47 2019, in response to Re: Unrest, posted by Bill Newkirk on Sun Oct 20 19:09:38 2019.

Oh, I believe there were a number of foofraws in the early 20th century over transit companies proposing to raise the base fare from five to seven cents.

Alan Follett
South San Francisco, CA

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Re: Unrest

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Oct 21 01:12:05 2019, in response to Re: Unrest, posted by Alan Follett on Mon Oct 21 00:15:47 2019.

correct. The real issue is not the nominal price in USD, but rather, the % of an average worker's wages spent on commuting to work. At least one outlet (BBC IIRC) said transit costs were 20% of monthly wages. That is a high price for the privilege of getting to a low wage job.
As a corrollary, we have often spoken of therelation of tokens in NYCtoa single pizza slice. When one worked for 2.50/hr (before deductions) a 20c token and 25c pizza slice were fairly cheap;if you lived in a two fare enclave OTOH transit was double--and given rents in single fare areas, you not only paid double but had a much longer ride.

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Re: Unrest

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Oct 21 01:31:21 2019, in response to Re: Unrest, posted by Peter Rosa on Sun Oct 20 20:16:33 2019.

while not defending the behavior, I suspect the level of anger at s#$%@^ standard of living runs deeper than subway fares. We in the US have a huge "soma" program designed to keep us from going after the oligarchs/kleptocrats.

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(1527470)

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Re: Unrest

Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Oct 21 10:27:21 2019, in response to Re: Unrest, posted by Peter Rosa on Sun Oct 20 21:36:51 2019.

Well education and health care do cost a lot of money. Before I "retired" I was paying $650.00 a month for health care Insurance.

I always went to school part-time, lived at home, ate at home. Went to a community college, where in those days the tuition was $35.00 per credit.

Costs are higher, but that can still be done today, I was commuting to work on the LIRR paying room and board to my parents and renting a spare car from dad.

IT can be done and you will be left with ZERO in debt.

Health 'insurance' is not insurance at all. It is a finance scheme, and there is nothing wrong with that, but lets call a spade a spade, and take it out from under the insurance industry and regulation.

REAL health insurance might be:

20-30 years... Trauma Emergency coverage only
30-40 years... Trauma and Emergency Medical only (as seen in the ER)
40-50 years... Unexpected Health care (ER or Dr. Office)
50-65 years... Full Service Health Care
65-99 years... Medicare

A person could by into any package (except Medicare) at ;any age. Each group has its own premiums, But in the case of the first three it is real insurance and you do not expect to collect anything back from them ... unless.

The insurance companies will set whatever premiums are necessary to make their policies work. The ages are suggested,: a 20 something need only worry about Emergency Trauma. a 30 something begins to worry about his heart. 40 somethings begin to worry about Diabetes, Cancer and stroke.

You buy what you thinnk you need.

THE CHEAPEST HEALTH CARE is ala Rush Limbaugh or Donald Trump : PAY AS YOU GO.

When you pay as you go you are only paying for the care that you get in the institution that you attend. (Of course you are paying for the building, the janitor, all of the nurses, cooks, and etc.) But when you buy 'insurance' you also have to buy the insurance company's buildings employees and janitors. Why buy two buildings if one will do.

The answer lies in the fact that most people cannot afford that big a hit out of their pockets. BUT YOU KNOW that these expenses are right there, you *COULD* save up for them on your own. Instead of paying BC/BS $650 a month, you could save that, you very quickly will be able to pay out of your pocket for health care.

LIKE I SAY: It is a finance scheme, and it should come under the laws and regulations of finance, ergo the principal is yours not the insurance companies. ou CAN take it with you to a different provider.

MUCH SAFER THAT WAY: and a finance company does not have all of the overhead of an insurance company.

ROAR

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Re: Unrest

Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Oct 21 10:30:40 2019, in response to Re: Unrest, posted by BILLBKLYN on Sun Oct 20 22:24:47 2019.

Let them ride a HORSE!

ROAR

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Re: Unrest

Posted by George Foelschow on Mon Oct 21 11:48:14 2019, in response to Re: Unrest, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Oct 21 10:27:21 2019.

And if a child was so unlucky as to get cancer, I suppose you would have them sent into the factories or mines to pay for their medical bills if they don't die first.

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Re: Unrest

Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Oct 21 12:15:08 2019, in response to Re: Unrest, posted by George Foelschow on Mon Oct 21 11:48:14 2019.

No, I am speaking of insurance schemes vs finance schemes.

A child would be covered under their parent's policy.
That is why I started at age 20. But nobody has to buy insurance.

If you do not buy insurance, the hospital would likely enough work out a finance plan with you.
Is cancer the big bug a boo...it is a condition, many people have conditions, and they will have to buy the insurance that is right for them.

If someone wanted to buy 'all contingency' insurance for their family, I'm sure the insurance companies would provide quotes



Now then, Who is going to cover that child today?


ROAR


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(1527493)

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Re: Unrest

Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Oct 21 12:33:03 2019, in response to Re: Unrest, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Oct 21 10:27:21 2019.

This is fucking ridiculous. People in their 20s have medical expenses too. And thatís the best age to be paying into medical insurance because most people will not be using a lot of it.

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Re: Unrest

Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Oct 21 12:34:34 2019, in response to Re: Unrest, posted by George Foelschow on Mon Oct 21 11:48:14 2019.

TrumpCare.

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Re: Unrest

Posted by Steamdriven on Mon Oct 21 12:40:39 2019, in response to Re: Unrest, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Oct 20 20:24:43 2019.

That is a serious fire, what is fueling it? What inside of a subway car is combustible in enough quantity to do that??
If it's the same here, a terrorist or 3 could incinerate hundreds of people in one go. How many people know how to use emergency exits in a subway car? Not me, I dunno how to escape one with the end doors locked or blocked.

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Re: Unrest

Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Oct 21 12:43:17 2019, in response to Re: Unrest, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Oct 21 12:33:03 2019.

It is a free world, I require NOBODY to buy insurance and anybody can buy whatever insurance they wanted.

My suggestions were built on the fact that 20s cannot afford as much as the 30s &tc.

You are looking at insurance as a leftist, building a ponzi scheme to let the young pay for the old like social security.

SAVE UP and pay for your own retirement and health care. THAT is how it is supposed to be done.

If you want to join up with others to share and spread the expenses, then that is ok too.

I toss out ideas and you think that I am excluding someone.

I am pointing out the facts of life: These things cost money, and who is going to pay? Everybody has the same expenses/

Do you want the government to pay for everything?

Try Cuba.

ROAR

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(1527498)

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Re: Unrest

Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Oct 21 12:46:45 2019, in response to Re: Unrest, posted by Steamdriven on Mon Oct 21 12:40:39 2019.

The seating and other plastic materials are made of hyrrocarbons, they let off toxic and flamible gas when they burn.

I have been following some OOTUB channels esp FDNY fire scenes, and then went on to look at some firefighting instructional videos, Did you know that smoke is flammable.

It was all very interesting.

ROQAR

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Re: Unrest

Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Oct 21 12:57:31 2019, in response to Re: Unrest, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Oct 21 12:43:17 2019.

It is a free world, I require NOBODY to buy insurance and anybody can buy whatever insurance they wanted.

What a childish, Randian, view of freedom. In the real world, we all pay taxes. Medical care should be covered by taxes.

My suggestions were built on the fact that 20s cannot afford as much as the 30s &tc.

Which isnít universally true and in any case is what we have progressive taxes for.

You are looking at insurance as a leftist, building a ponzi scheme to let the young pay for the old like social security.

How is that a Ponzi scheme? Everyone who is old was once young.

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Re: Unrest

Posted by Orange Blossom Special on Mon Oct 21 13:06:11 2019, in response to Unrest, posted by TransitChuckG on Sun Oct 20 18:58:45 2019.

I don't see anyone protesting or rioting over fare increases. I see pictures of professional protesters.

Look like the democrats....er...antifa of the underside of the Earth.

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Re: Unrest

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Oct 21 13:08:58 2019, in response to Re: Unrest, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Oct 21 12:15:08 2019.

speaking as a victim of a genetic link eye deficiency thus blackballed from ANY health insurance until I aged into Medicare, your faith in the generosity of insurance co's is misplaced IMHO. The whole point of Medicare for all/all medical providers must participate,is to spread costs across the entire population.
We have our beloved subway because the private sector subway systems throughout the US went bankrupt and we as a nation figured out we needed transit to maintain our urban economy.

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Re: Unrest

Posted by AlM on Mon Oct 21 13:52:19 2019, in response to Re: Unrest, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Oct 21 12:43:17 2019.


SAVE UP and pay for your own retirement and health care.


Have you heard of the concept of insurance (paying a moderate amount of money so that you remain financially secure if catastrophe strikes)?

Or do you also suggest saving up so that, if your house burns down, you can pay to replace it?




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Re: Unrest

Posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Oct 21 14:03:11 2019, in response to Re: Unrest, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Oct 21 13:08:58 2019.

Private transit companies went bankrupt because of government subsidizing the competition. Thatís different than medical care, which is an absolute necessity.

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Re: Unrest

Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Oct 21 15:23:18 2019, in response to Re: Unrest, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Oct 21 12:57:31 2019.

Medical care *can* be covered by taxes, but you are now in the 50 to 60% tax bracket if not higher.

Everyone who is old was young once....


Now THAT is quaint. But there are now more Baby Boomers drawing socsec than there are young whippersnappers to pay for it. YOU have been aborting them all.

ROAR



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Re: Unrest

Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Oct 21 15:27:53 2019, in response to Re: Unrest, posted by AlM on Mon Oct 21 13:52:19 2019.

No. Fire insurance on your house or auto insurance on your car *IS* Insurance as you expect it to be.

HEALTH CARE IS NOT! Everybody IS going to need the same healthcare and that is not insurance.

What I suggested about Trauma insurance or Emergency Medical insurance was real insurance, but anything beyond that is simply FINANCE!

Yes we need finance policies of some sort, but that is not insurance.

You hope you NEVER need to collect on your insurance policy, but everybody expects to collect on Health Insurance.

That is why it is not insurance. It is Finance.

ROAR

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Re: Unrest

Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Oct 21 15:32:17 2019, in response to Re: Unrest, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Oct 21 13:08:58 2019.

Yes, well how can you buy fire insurance after your house has burned down. The condition you speak of ie exactly the same. OK, you were born with a condition, my sympathies, but no insurance company would touch you and that is that. It is a house that has already burned down.

Should there be some sort of a government safety net. Perhaps so, but that is not universal health care.

ROAR

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Re: Unrest

Posted by AlM on Mon Oct 21 15:41:24 2019, in response to Re: Unrest, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Oct 21 15:27:53 2019.

Everybody IS going to need the same healthcare

Totally false.



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Re: Unrest

Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Mon Oct 21 15:48:04 2019, in response to Re: Unrest, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Oct 21 15:27:53 2019.

"Everybody IS going to need the same healthcare..."

How could that possibly be? An Example: How could someone who is genetically predisposed (family history) to say breast or colon cancer have the same longterm healthcare needs as someone who is not ?

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Re: Unrest

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Oct 21 16:07:38 2019, in response to Re: Unrest, posted by Spider-Pig on Mon Oct 21 14:03:11 2019.

Chicago Rapid Transit and C Surface Lines went belly because of the Depression. Meanwhile the City of Chicago built the State St Subway Tunnel for CRT--not exactly competition.

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Re: Unrest

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Oct 21 16:20:54 2019, in response to Re: Unrest, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Oct 21 15:23:18 2019.


Imagine that your subway fare as a cash customer were 3 or 4 times higher than mine because I pay some insurance co. which tries to deny me service when I show up at the turnstiles. That is what we have in health care.

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Re: Unrest

Posted by Edwards! on Mon Oct 21 16:27:44 2019, in response to Re: Unrest, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Oct 21 01:12:05 2019.

Exactly.
Commuters traveling to/through the outer portions of the city are Still paying two fare zone prices.
Case in point. To visit my uncle by public transport,I have to catch a bus to the Subway,then Another bus to reach his home.
That's 5.50 each way, making it eleven dollars round trip.

Brooklyn to Queens.
Now, compared to driving.. dealing traffic..Belt Parkway Etc..mass transit is the less nerve wracking option.
But cost wise.. Id rather drive and put that $11 bucks in the tank.

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Re: Unrest

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Oct 21 16:34:30 2019, in response to Re: Unrest, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Oct 21 15:32:17 2019.

clearly you are channeling Crassus.
If you are not willing to have universal healthcare, fire suppression, etc perhaps a rereading of John Donne or ssome Holy Scripture is in order. "Do unto others..."

While I have zero interest in dictating your belief system, I do have some desire to enforce basic human rights throughout our polity.

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Re: Unrest

Posted by TransitChuckG on Mon Oct 21 16:35:03 2019, in response to Re: Unrest, posted by Edwards! on Mon Oct 21 16:27:44 2019.

Like!

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Re: Unrest

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Oct 21 16:38:22 2019, in response to Re: Unrest, posted by Edwards! on Mon Oct 21 16:27:44 2019.

which, of course, is why when I visit NYC I buy multi-day passes. Chicago, the same.


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Re: Unrest

Posted by Peter Rosa on Mon Oct 21 16:42:50 2019, in response to Re: Unrest, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Oct 21 13:08:58 2019.

We have our beloved subway because the private sector subway systems throughout the US went bankrupt and we as a nation figured out we needed transit to maintain our urban economy.


Exactly. It would be wonderful if the private sector could build and operate mass transit systems while keeping fares affordable, but that's simply not going to happen. Sometimes there's no way around government ownership.

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Re: Unrest

Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Oct 21 17:15:23 2019, in response to Re: Unrest, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Mon Oct 21 15:48:04 2019.

They will likely enough have other issues, perhaps Parkinson or Alzheimer. Or maybe there are a few that live to a ripe old age without much in the way of health care.

This much is true,: We use far more health care than we really need. I mean do you really need to go to the doctor for every little sniffle or bruise?

And doctors now practice "defensive medicine" and order more tests than what otherwise be indicated.

OK, so you broke you leg, here let me put a cast on it. o now they get a CAT SCAN of it and send you to the specialist.

ROARING

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Re: Unrest

Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Oct 21 17:16:29 2019, in response to Re: Unrest, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Oct 21 16:07:38 2019.

Well they learned well from Mayors Tweed and Hylan.

ROAR

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Re: Unrest

Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Oct 21 17:19:28 2019, in response to Re: Unrest, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Oct 21 16:20:54 2019.

Insurance companies collect money from you while you are health so that they can help you when you are not.

If you go to the with a preexisting condition they are well within theirs rights to refuse you, or else give you a sky high premium.

THAT is business.

If I wand a special subway car with soft seats and an attendant, you are damn right they will charge me extra. A lot extra.
ROAR

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(1527543)

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Re: Unrest

Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Oct 21 17:21:06 2019, in response to Re: Unrest, posted by Edwards! on Mon Oct 21 16:27:44 2019.

Just remember that the car costs you 53c / mile, not including tolls and parking.

ROAR

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Re: Unrest

Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Oct 21 17:24:56 2019, in response to Re: Unrest, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Oct 21 16:34:30 2019.

What human rights?

And do others have to pay for you?

Those who do not work shall not eat.

You can find any scripture text you like.

Yes I agree that everyone should be taken care of. This happens when you apply for social services. They will meet your needs, and for that, yes I am willing to pay.

But not for universal coverage, unless you are willing to accept 60% as your lowest tax rate.

ROAR

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(1527546)

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Re: Unrest

Posted by Edwards! on Mon Oct 21 17:25:31 2019, in response to Re: Unrest, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Oct 21 17:21:06 2019.

And That still works out better..since no tolls are involved..and I park in a car port.

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(1527547)

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Re: Unrest

Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Oct 21 17:26:31 2019, in response to Re: Unrest, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Oct 21 16:38:22 2019.

ditto LION. As a matter of fact, staying in New Jersey, it was cheaper to ride NJT than PATH. I get a senior discount there, and the CR frequently has no chance to collect a ticket.

ROARING

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Re: Unrest

Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Oct 21 17:28:14 2019, in response to Re: Unrest, posted by Edwards! on Mon Oct 21 17:25:31 2019.

You park in a car poirt at both ends of your ride.

Well it is still 53c a mile. Now if you split that between two, three or four riders, then you have yourself a deal, as long as you do not have to pay for parking in the city.

ROAR

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(1527549)

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Re: Unrest

Posted by Edwards! on Mon Oct 21 17:32:06 2019, in response to Re: Unrest, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Oct 21 17:26:31 2019.

Too much of a headache trying to get a discount pass for PATH trains.
NJT is simple and easy.
You just need to have ID if questioned by the CR.

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Re: Unrest

Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Oct 21 17:32:20 2019, in response to Re: Unrest, posted by Peter Rosa on Mon Oct 21 16:42:50 2019.

True, but it still must be paid for, either at the fare box, or from thtax payer.

I think the present system is a fare mix, and only crybabies think they need a lower fare.

ROAR

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Re: Unrest

Posted by Edwards! on Mon Oct 21 17:35:42 2019, in response to Re: Unrest, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Oct 21 17:28:14 2019.

Outer boroughs only.
I Never drive into Manhattan unless it's dire need.
Or if it's passing through to Jersey etc.
Narrows Bridge is the Worst offender dealing with the toll system.

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Re: Unrest

Posted by TransitChuckG on Mon Oct 21 17:49:21 2019, in response to Re: Unrest, posted by Edwards! on Mon Oct 21 17:32:06 2019.

I ride SEPTA with my Senior Key Card.All surface vehicles are FREE, as are both the BSL, & MFSE. Also, Regional Rail trains are FREE, except if you are traveling to/from New Jersey, either way, you pay the extra fee.

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