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| Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years (1522228) | |
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Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Aug 26 16:54:07 2019, in response to Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years, posted by William A. Padron on Mon Aug 26 08:16:40 2019. That photo didn’t even have any actual R-9s in it since the last of the conventional IND prewar cars the R-9 contract didn’t come in till 1940. If any color photos are available of those, it would be interesting to see what they looked like when brand new |
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Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Aug 26 17:00:53 2019, in response to Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Mon Aug 26 09:15:43 2019. According to photos I have seen, the track connection was between the N/B lcl tk of the BMT’s Culver Line at the N/E of Ditmas and the IND. |
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Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years |
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Posted by Express Rider on Mon Aug 26 17:04:37 2019, in response to Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years, posted by Edwards! on Mon Aug 26 03:46:05 2019. You put this so very well!And thanks as well for sharing your memories! |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years |
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Posted by Express Rider on Mon Aug 26 17:20:56 2019, in response to Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Mon Aug 26 09:15:43 2019. Thank you.So one can assume that the connection from just outside the IND portal to the South Brooklyn Railway was at street level? Also, I have found a couple of emails for Hentry Raudenbush on-line. What is the most current way to contact him? I would like to ask him a question. Thanks. |
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Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Mon Aug 26 19:39:22 2019, in response to Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years, posted by randyo on Mon Aug 26 17:00:53 2019. Supposedly that connection was used so infrequently that a tree sprouted between the rails! |
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Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Mon Aug 26 19:41:37 2019, in response to Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years, posted by randyo on Sun Aug 25 20:47:53 2019. Yep, the same ones the R-11s had. |
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Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Mon Aug 26 19:42:07 2019, in response to Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years, posted by SLRT on Mon Aug 26 09:01:09 2019. Kev, may he rest in peace, might have. He loved those cars. |
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Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years |
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Posted by W.B. on Mon Aug 26 20:12:37 2019, in response to Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years, posted by randyo on Sun Aug 25 20:47:53 2019. Yeah, that's the thing. If a photo of an 'Arnine' has '2 4th Avenue' or '4 Sea Beach' on the front, the roll sign was definitely of 1948 make. It was also a miracle to see the one shot where 'CITY OF NEW YORK' was still shown at the lower center below the passenger windows. |
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Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Aug 26 20:21:25 2019, in response to Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Mon Aug 26 19:42:07 2019. Ah yes.Moo! |
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Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years |
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Posted by italianguyinsi on Mon Aug 26 22:23:18 2019, in response to Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years, posted by Express Rider on Sat Aug 24 15:34:52 2019. I always thought the IND MUs =tested= on the BMT only prior to 8th Avenue IND opening in 9.1932, but in this thread, it stated that the R units were also on loan to the BMT in the 1940s prior to Fulton IND opening to Euclid.Was this the same time as the BoT had to obtain MUs from SIRT for Culver service as there was a general shortage of steel cars in the BMT or some other reason? |
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Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years |
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Posted by italianguyinsi on Mon Aug 26 22:23:56 2019, in response to Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years, posted by Express Rider on Sat Aug 24 15:34:52 2019. I always thought the IND MUs =tested= on the BMT only prior to 8th Avenue IND opening in 9.1932, but in this thread, it stated that the R units were also on loan to the BMT in the 1940s prior to Fulton IND opening to Euclid.Was this the same time as the BoT had to obtain MUs from SIRT for Culver service as there was a general shortage of steel cars in the BMT or some other reason? |
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Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years |
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Posted by italianguyinsi on Mon Aug 26 22:43:31 2019, in response to Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years, posted by Express Rider on Sat Aug 24 15:34:52 2019. In addition, the first image of R-1 #103 purports a time frame of 1930-1931, prior to IND 8th Avenue opening in 1932 - however if you look closely at the roof of the platform, you will see fluorescent lamps - these didn't exist on the Sea Beach in 1931 (or any other IND or BMT line at that period in time).Earliest -subway- installation was 1948 with Euclid's IND station, and the Southern Division (els and open cuts) didn't get them installed until the early 1980s on surface and elevated lines. |
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Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years |
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Posted by K. Trout on Mon Aug 26 23:01:19 2019, in response to Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Mon Aug 26 09:15:43 2019. Photo from nycsubway.org: No date on the photo, but judging by the cars under the Culver line, I'm going to guess about 1950. 1937 for the opening feels about right - I had always thought that the masonry and brickwork of the portal itself looked rather like phase 1 IND (compare power substations, yard entrances, etc). |
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Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Tue Aug 27 06:15:28 2019, in response to Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years, posted by Express Rider on Mon Aug 26 17:20:56 2019. So one can assume that the connection from just outside the IND portal to the South Brooklyn Railway was at street level? I would have to assume so. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years |
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Posted by murray1575 on Tue Aug 27 10:38:38 2019, in response to Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years, posted by italianguyinsi on Mon Aug 26 22:23:56 2019. The purchase of the ME-1 cars from SIRT took place in the 1950s after the South Beach and North Shore SIRT lines were abandoned. Even with those cars there was still a car shortage as some R-10 cars ran on the BMT for some time. Also after new SMEE cars arrived on the IRT some Lo-V cars were adapted with extension plates and used on the BMT Franklin and Culver shuttles until new R-27 cars arrived. |
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Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Aug 27 11:11:00 2019, in response to Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years, posted by italianguyinsi on Mon Aug 26 22:43:31 2019. That this was likely a 70s fantrip is also referenced elsewhere in the thread.Another bit of evidence that this wasn't 1931 is the man standing behind the reverse railfan window. He isn't dressed like someone would be dressed in 1931. |
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Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Aug 27 12:08:05 2019, in response to Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years, posted by murray1575 on Tue Aug 27 10:38:38 2019. And lo and behold when the Staten Island ME-1 cars arrived, they wouldn't MU with the Standards, as was expected. Sounds like someone from the Board of Transportation (or the TA) didn't do their homework. |
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Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years |
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Posted by italianguyinsi on Tue Aug 27 14:24:04 2019, in response to Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Aug 27 12:08:05 2019. Yes; so that's why there were no lash ups with R stock or BMT stock. |
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Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years |
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Posted by https://salaamallah.com/ on Tue Aug 27 14:56:18 2019, in response to Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years, posted by Express Rider on Sun Aug 25 02:33:14 2019. they are beautiful |
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Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years |
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Posted by Edwards! on Tue Aug 27 17:09:16 2019, in response to Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years, posted by Express Rider on Mon Aug 26 17:04:37 2019. You are very welcome.Thank YOU for reading. |
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Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years |
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Posted by Edwards! on Tue Aug 27 17:20:19 2019, in response to Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years, posted by Q Brightliner Harry on Mon Aug 26 04:24:01 2019. 😁.Yeah,so would I,but being a little kid at the time...really didn't have much of a choice. Plus Pops had the 'Old train'. Not to mention the goofy eyes thing that was going on between my parents 😍😍. We just came back from the South after 2 weeks and they pretty much missed each other very much (and boy,did it show!yuck!)😄 |
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Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Aug 27 17:24:57 2019, in response to Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years, posted by italianguyinsi on Mon Aug 26 22:23:18 2019. I think the purchase of the SIRT cars was post 1950. |
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Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Aug 27 17:26:34 2019, in response to Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years, posted by murray1575 on Tue Aug 27 10:38:38 2019. I think that the main reason for the R-10s going to the BMT was to familiarize M/M with SMEE equipment prior to the arrival of the R-16s. |
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Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Aug 27 17:42:46 2019, in response to Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years, posted by italianguyinsi on Tue Aug 27 14:24:04 2019. As originally built, the electric portions on the BMT steels drawheads were actually a slide that had to be advanced from one car to the next by a position on the uncoupling valve in the M/M's cab in order to establish electrical connections which is why many old time BMT crews used to refer to all electric potions generically as “slides.” By the time of the D types and SIRT cars a automatic electric portion had been developed in which upon coupling, both electric potions advanced and met each other face to face. The original slide on one end of the 2390-91-92 unit has been replaced by a regular electric portion that allows it to couple to either an R-9 or a D type. Since there may have been a few BMT style drawheads left over from the steels that were unitized into B units it’s remotely possible that the TA could have installed them on the SIRT cars to make them compatible with the steels but either there may not have been enough parts to do it or the TA might have felt that it wasn't worth the effort for such a small fleet. There were other mini=or differences between the SIRT cars and the steels that would also have presented some difficulties. The MU door controls were not wired into the slides in the steels which is why an additional 9 point door jumper had to be added when they were retrofitted with MUDC in the 1920s. Also, the steels had tripcocks that could be reset from the M/M’s cab since they were electric in nature whereas the SIRT cars had to be retrofitted with a straight mechanical tripcock that had to be manually reset under the car in the event of a tripping. To retrofit the SIRT cars with such a device would require installing a completely new circuit which was probably not worth the expense. |
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Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Aug 27 17:50:39 2019, in response to Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years, posted by K. Trout on Mon Aug 26 23:01:19 2019. From the look of the buildings in the area, it would also appear that some of the buildings on the west side of Mcdonald Av in the area were demolished to make room for the 4 tk wide portal that connected to the el. You will see that north of the portal, Mcdonald Av is not as wide as it is in the immediate area of the portal. The city did similar things in other areas of the city to allow for the construction of some of the IND’s subway lines. Some buildings on the west side of Church St S/O Canal St were razed to allow the 4 tk IND subway to be built by cut and cover and buildings on the south side of Houston St were also demolished to make room for the Houston St subway. |
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Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Tue Aug 27 18:29:48 2019, in response to Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years, posted by randyo on Tue Aug 27 17:26:34 2019. Trigger boxes notwithstanding.:) |
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Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Tue Aug 27 21:41:02 2019, in response to Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years, posted by Edwards! on Tue Aug 27 17:09:16 2019. It was a nice post you deserve accolades. |
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Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years |
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Posted by Q Brightliner Harry on Wed Aug 28 04:22:34 2019, in response to Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years, posted by Edwards! on Tue Aug 27 17:20:19 2019. Love it 😍 !!Haha. Thanks, again! |
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Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years |
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Posted by italianguyinsi on Wed Aug 28 09:15:57 2019, in response to Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years, posted by randyo on Tue Aug 27 17:42:46 2019. Thank you for the detailed explanation. Makes sense not to go through the time, money and effort to incorporate MU to the existing fleet for such a few number of cars. |
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Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years |
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Posted by Edwards! on Wed Aug 28 11:47:14 2019, in response to Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years, posted by Catfish 44 on Tue Aug 27 21:41:02 2019. I spent a great deal of time with him either Talking about trains, or riding with him. I remember at one point in time,The entire Jamaica Line service was provided by R7/9 cars...while M service used anything that C.I tossed on it. The L became the hole the R16s were dropped in. The R16 replaced the old IND cars...the wheels kept turning...until they too,were replaced. |
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Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Wed Aug 28 12:30:22 2019, in response to Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years, posted by Edwards! on Wed Aug 28 11:47:14 2019. I don't get it.CI tossed trains on the M? Did you like R 16s? |
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Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years |
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Posted by Edwards! on Wed Aug 28 12:49:14 2019, in response to Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years, posted by LuchAAA on Wed Aug 28 12:30:22 2019. Hard to say anything nice about the 16s.They were as Spartan as spartan can be...rocked side to side like a disco tech...and were particularly slow. The good things about them were the seating arrangements. C.I.Y and ENY had a piece of the M line as you well know. The East didn't have any R32/40m/40 or 38s assigned there. These were the cars that showed up on the M line through out the week just to make service. The 27/30/30a and 42s were ENY cars that saw 'regular service' within that division,serving ALMOST all routes. |
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Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years |
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Posted by murray1575 on Wed Aug 28 14:00:07 2019, in response to Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years, posted by Edwards! on Wed Aug 28 12:49:14 2019. It's true that the R16s were the last cars built with longitudinal and transverse seating much like the R10. All the newer 60' cars have longitudinal seating IRT style. The TA said that it made the cars easier to clean(if they ever actually cleaned them). However the R16 was slow and unreliable (especially the GE equipped 6400 series cars). |
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Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Wed Aug 28 14:02:15 2019, in response to Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years, posted by Edwards! on Tue Aug 27 17:20:19 2019. Very nice stories Edwards :) |
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Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Aug 28 16:45:57 2019, in response to Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Tue Aug 27 18:29:48 2019. That would be the only wrinkle, but I suspect that C/R qualification could have taken place bys sending C/Rs to CIY to break in on the R-15s which had identical door controls to the R-16s. The M/M probably received similar school car training but in the case of the M/M they needed to be able to familiarize themselves with actual road operation of SMEE equipment which was a little more necessary than training C/Rs who merely had to learn where the indication boards for R types would be located. |
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Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Aug 28 16:50:04 2019, in response to Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years, posted by murray1575 on Wed Aug 28 14:00:07 2019. I haven’t heard anything about it but were the GE R-17s through 22s which had the identical propulsion equipment to the R-16s as trouble prone? |
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Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Wed Aug 28 18:55:29 2019, in response to Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years, posted by Edwards! on Wed Aug 28 12:49:14 2019. The late Karl B, who remembered when the R-16s were new, said that when they first appeared, people loved them. And the good folks at ENY shops knew how to take care of them. They might have fared better had they never left the Three Stooges Division. |
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Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Wed Aug 28 20:24:24 2019, in response to Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years, posted by randyo on Tue Aug 27 17:42:46 2019. The door controls on the museum BMT standards still won't trainline with those of the IND old timers, correct? |
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Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years |
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Posted by Express Rider on Wed Aug 28 22:49:05 2019, in response to Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years, posted by italianguyinsi on Wed Aug 28 09:15:57 2019. I agree with your post! Thank you as well for this detailed information - as I've posted a number of times before, your posts explaining these unique details of early - mid 20th Ct. NY transit operations technology are !invaluable!PTB (powers that be) don't seem to care about saving details of rolling stock technology and operations for NYC rapid transit history - and I'm sure too many details have been lost already, due to no hard copy being saved, or knowledgeable individuals not being given the attention and/or opportunity, and aske to write these details down or be interviewed about them. Transport for London (formerly London Transport) has always seemed to have a sense of pride and importance in preserving as much as possible of their history, down to the brass tacks of technology and operations. |
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Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years |
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Posted by Express Rider on Wed Aug 28 23:12:06 2019, in response to Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years, posted by randyo on Tue Aug 27 17:42:46 2019. I remember reading that important tech. advances on the Standards were features that could be set for an entire train, from the M/M's cab. re: what you wrote below:--- the electric portions on the BMT steels drawheads were actually a slide ... advanced ... in the M/M's cab in order to establish electrical connections --- the steels had tripcocks that could be reset from the M/M’s cab wasn't there also a door indication light for the entire train that was in the M/M's cab? I don't remember whether there was or not. were there any other operational indicators or features for an entire train of Standards, that were also present in the M/M's cab? |
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Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years |
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Posted by Express Rider on Wed Aug 28 23:29:43 2019, in response to Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years, posted by randyo on Tue Aug 27 17:42:46 2019. re: By the time of the D types and SIRT cars a automatic electric portion had been developed in which upon coupling, both electric potions advanced and met each other face to face.Possibly (hopefully probably) articles might have been written in Street Railway Journal or Electric Railway Journal at that time in which this development might have been written about & explained in detail, as well as comparing and contrasting it to the earlier slide technology*? *and some ten years or so earlier, when the slide technology was SOA maybe there were articles written about it as well ca. 1914 give or take a couple of years? The R1-9's must have had this automatic electric portion improvement as well? And finally, for early St. Rwy. J. & El.Rwy.J. articles on line sources are given as university libraries. Has anyone found whether there are indidivual specific indexes of articles on-line for each of these journals? or would there be another way on-line to search them - through their specific university library search systems, or yet another way? Thanks. |
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Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years |
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Posted by K. Trout on Thu Aug 29 01:34:42 2019, in response to Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years, posted by randyo on Tue Aug 27 17:50:39 2019. Yep, that is most definitely the case. Note the long, narrow building on the west side of McDonald Av: On the 1924 historic aerial, it looks like those blocks were sparsely built, I can't imagine it was hugely built up by 1937, so probably easy for the city to buy up:  |
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Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Thu Aug 29 15:54:28 2019, in response to Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years, posted by Express Rider on Wed Aug 28 23:12:06 2019. On the Standards the m/m's indication light was right under the controller. In other words, the controller would slightly light up from underneath as the bulb was a very dim one. I think the D-Types were the same.Nothing would stop any m/m from taking power with the doors open or w/o indication. The first cars with an interlocking that prevented the m/m from taking power w/o indication were the R10's. They, and subsequent cars, have an indication by-pass button. |
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Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Aug 29 17:50:17 2019, in response to Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Wed Aug 28 20:24:24 2019. No. That is because the MUDC circuits on the steels are carried through a separate jumper and not the slide. The same applies to coupling the steels with the D types. |
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Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Aug 29 18:08:40 2019, in response to Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Thu Aug 29 15:54:28 2019. Slight correction. The indication light on the steels was on the controller top just forward of the controller handle and on the right hand side of the controller were buttons and switches for control cutout, reset and marker lights. There was also a hole for an additional button called “trip” but AFAIK, it had nothing to do with the tripcocks but was intended to open the line breakers prior to resetting. 6 of the first 12 Steinways which were WH equipped, known as the Boilers had identical controllers but had no buttons or M/M’s indication light in the places provide for them. Why the IRT chose a slightly different controller for the rest of the WH Lo-Vs and Steinways, I don’t know, but if you notice on the museum Lo-Vs which although have GE controllers utilize the IRT positioning which is about 45 degrees off from most conventional controllers. Rather than use the places provided, the IRT chose to install its own control/reset switches and indication boxes. |
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Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Aug 29 18:13:21 2019, in response to Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years, posted by Express Rider on Wed Aug 28 23:29:43 2019. I have a copy of an “Electric Railway Journal” from circa 1910 which has photos and descriptions of various street, rapid transit and other electric railway vehicles and various component parts. Check to see if your local library might have a copy. |
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Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Aug 29 18:22:17 2019, in response to Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years, posted by K. Trout on Thu Aug 29 01:34:42 2019. From what I understand, the area along Schermerhorn St near Hoyt in downtown Bkln either had buildings that were in a bad state of disrepair or else vacant lots that had nothing on them at all making both easy to condemn making construction of the Hoyt/Schermerhorn complex easy to build. |
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Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years |
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Posted by Express Rider on Fri Aug 30 04:52:54 2019, in response to Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years, posted by randyo on Thu Aug 29 18:13:21 2019. Thank you for the info.I will definately check this out. |
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Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Aug 30 20:00:54 2019, in response to Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years, posted by Express Rider on Wed Aug 28 23:29:43 2019. The couplers on the R-1/9s and Triplexes look very much alike. H2-A, IINM. |
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Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Aug 30 20:01:32 2019, in response to Re: Arnines on the BMT - photos - early years, posted by Express Rider on Wed Aug 28 23:29:43 2019. The couplers on the R-1/9s and Triplexes look very much alike. H2-A, IINM. |
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