DMU, kick this dead horse, again

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DMU, kick this dead horse, again
Posted by Avid Reader on Wed Jul 10 04:40:58 2019 LIRR Evaluates Use of DMUs for Low-Ridership Branch Lines Yonah Freemark April 30th, 2010 \| » Service changes on Long Island would reduce the number of one-stop rides into Manhattan but lower operations and capital costs. Though the Long Island Rail Road (LIRR) is the busiest commuter rail operation in the United States, with more than 300,000 daily boardings, its 700 miles of track make frequent services to all parts of the island too expensive to be economically viable. The stations at the end of the system’s two longest branches — to Greenport and Montauk, at the eastern tips of the island — are out of convenient commuting distance to Manhattan, so the LIRR provides only a few trains a day. From Montauk, a more than three-hour commute, there are only five trains daily to Penn Station; from Greenport, there are only three. The Metropolitan Transportation Authority (MTA), which runs the LIRR as well as the New York City Subway and other regional services, is planning to buy new diesel multiple unit trains (DMUs) to serve these and other lightly used routes, with the aim of reducing operations costs. The very limited service to the system’s far extents results in suffering ridership; Greenport, for instance, had on average only five daily passengers in 2006. Yet as a result of the trains the LIRR currently has in its fleet, the system uses very heavy, diesel-guzzling vehicles for these routes. There is little room for more services to these far-off locales because of the high operating costs of these trains and the limited capacity along the LIRR’s routes approaching Manhattan. Though much of the LIRR system is electrified and use electric multiple unit trains, several major sections of the system remain reliant on diesel-powered vehicles, though all trains with direct service to Manhattan must be able to switch to third rail electric propulsion as they enter the city. With 45 diesel dual-mode locomotives and 134 bilevel railcars, the LIRR serves the less-populated portions of the island, including unelectrified tracks east of Ronkonkoma and Babylon along the Ronkonkoma and Montauk branches, as well as along much of the Port Jefferson and Oyster Bay branches. Those latter routes have more service than do Montauk or Greenport, but their offerings are still constrained to about one train per hour. The dual-mode locomotives and C3 railcars that are attached to them are relatively new, having been bought in the late 1990s. Yet they’ve been prone to maintenance problems because of the complications resulting from their dual-mode power systems. Suffering from limited funds to maintain service levels as a result of the recession, the MTA is looking for ways to cut operating costs. It may have an answer in its decision to consider replacing the locomotive-hauled trains with DMUs along its least-used routes. If the organization determines that the new trains would save substantial operating funds, an $81 million order of about a dozen trains could come online in 2014 at the earliest. The plans are included in the MTA’s recently released proposed capital program for 2010 to 2014. Unlike the existing locomotives, which are very gas-consuming since they’re designed to pull ten or more railcars at a time — certainly not necessary along the LIRR’s longest routes — DMUs, with only one or two cars, are much lighter and designed for lines with fewer riders. By providing “scoot” services along unelectrified routes to the terminals of tracks with electric operations, DMUs could allow the LIRR to both increase services and reduce operations costs. New Jersey’s River Line, the Sprinter service north of San Diego, and Portland’s WES route use variations of DMU technology today. So does Austin’s brand-new Red Line. The most obvious route candidates for these new trains are the Ronkonkoma branch from Ronkonkoma to Greenport and the Montauk branch from Babylon to Montauk. Though these sections of the line would have their direct services into Manhattan eliminated and riders would be forced to transfer to get to the rest of the island, DMUs would make possible all-day operations since the trains would not have to be competing with the more heavily used vehicles from other branches trying to get into the city. The savings the MTA would accrue from using less fuel per passenger would likely pay for the cost of more daily services, increasing ridership. If transfers were timed, the connection between the diesel-operated lines and those that are electrified could be simple enough to keep all of the system’s current riders. For the LIRR, the use of DMUs along these far-off branch lines seems appropriate, since the diesel locomotives the system currently uses are designed for far busier routes and fundamentally inappropriate for places like Greenport or Montauk. Indeed, the decision to consider a conversion to these new technologies should inspire other commuter rail operators to switch to more efficient DMUs; Nashville’s infrequently used Music City Star line comes to mind as an obvious candidate. Lighter, more efficient trains could play an important role in reducing the operations costs of transit agencies across the country, all of which need to find savings to survive.
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Re: DMU, kick this dead horse, again
Posted by Avid Reader* on Wed Jul 10 04:41:31 2019, in response to DMU, kick this dead horse, again, posted by Avid Reader on Wed Jul 10 04:40:58 2019.* The length of each individual car of the VLocity 160 is 25,255mm. The rail car has a width of 2,920mm and runs on a 1,600mm track gauge. It features Bombardier’s MITRAC control system. Each train set consists of two cars which are coupled permanently. The inter-car connection is completely water-proofed and can be coupled to form an eight car train set. A two car train unit has a capacity to accommodate 144 passengers and a three car unit can accommodate 214 passengers.
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Re: DMU, kick this dead horse, again
Posted by Avid Reader* on Wed Jul 10 04:43:06 2019, in response to DMU, kick this dead horse, again, posted by Avid Reader on Wed Jul 10 04:40:58 2019.* Sorry for the double post. The length of each individual car of the VLocity 160 is 25,255mm. The rail car has a width of 2,920mm and runs on a 1,600mm track gauge. It features Bombardier’s MITRAC control system. Each train set consists of two cars which are coupled permanently. The inter-car connection is completely water-proofed and can be coupled to form an eight car train set. A two car train unit has a capacity to accommodate 144 passengers and a three car unit can accommodate 214 passengers.
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Re: DMU, kick this dead horse, again
Posted by MorningsideHeightsM100* on Wed Jul 10 04:47:09 2019, in response to DMU, kick this dead horse, again, posted by Avid Reader on Wed Jul 10 04:40:58 2019.* This is still a pipe dream, Avid. There's also the consideration that anything the MTA buys has to be at least partially built in NY (which is really total BS to be honest.) And given the MTA's track record with Bombardier.......yeah....it's still a pipe dream.
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Re: DMU, kick this dead horse, again
Posted by Jersey Mike* on Wed Jul 10 05:20:28 2019, in response to DMU, kick this dead horse, again, posted by Avid Reader on Wed Jul 10 04:40:58 2019.* Greenport should definitely go that way. I wouldn't try to eliminate the direct services in the peak however.
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Re: DMU, kick this dead horse, again?
Posted by Olog-hai* on Wed Jul 10 05:51:08 2019, in response to DMU, kick this dead horse, again, posted by Avid Reader on Wed Jul 10 04:40:58 2019.* This is not current. Nine years old.
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Re: DMU, kick this dead horse, again
Posted by sloth* on Wed Jul 10 05:59:42 2019, in response to Re: DMU, kick this dead horse, again, posted by Jersey Mike on Wed Jul 10 05:20:28 2019.* There is currently no one seat ride to either location, other than the Cannonball and its return trip. So there is nothing to eliminate.
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Re: DMU, kick this dead horse, again
Posted by Dyre Dan* on Wed Jul 10 06:21:19 2019, in response to Re: DMU, kick this dead horse, again, posted by Avid Reader on Wed Jul 10 04:43:06 2019.* 1,600mm track gauge? Huh?
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Re: DMU, kick this dead horse, again
Posted by AlM* on Wed Jul 10 06:26:26 2019, in response to Re: DMU, kick this dead horse, again, posted by Dyre Dan on Wed Jul 10 06:21:19 2019.* 62.99 inches, not 56.5 inches. Hmm. Probably just a mistake.
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Re: DMU, kick this dead horse, again
Posted by Olog-hai* on Wed Jul 10 06:46:50 2019, in response to Re: DMU, kick this dead horse, again, posted by Jersey Mike on Wed Jul 10 05:20:28 2019.* No, nothing should "go that way". Would bus service broken into two-seat rides like that survive?
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Re: DMU, kick this dead horse, again
Posted by MorningsideHeightsM100* on Wed Jul 10 07:24:09 2019, in response to Re: DMU, kick this dead horse, again, posted by AlM on Wed Jul 10 06:26:26 2019.* Is that broader than broad/wide gauge?
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Re: DMU, kick this dead horse, again
Posted by AlM* on Wed Jul 10 07:29:36 2019, in response to Re: DMU, kick this dead horse, again, posted by MorningsideHeightsM100 on Wed Jul 10 07:24:09 2019.* Looks like. Wikipedia says Russia uses 1520 mm, which is just about 5 feet.
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Re: DMU, kick this dead horse, again
Posted by orange blossom special* on Wed Jul 10 07:42:53 2019, in response to DMU, kick this dead horse, again, posted by Avid Reader on Wed Jul 10 04:40:58 2019.* I want to blame Yonah for forgetting the five questions in reporting in this vague and unreadable article. But then I forget people get news on the internet today. And you can't read more then 5 sentences on the thing. So we'll never understand what the heck is going on here.
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Re: DMU, kick this dead horse, again
Posted by Chris R16/R2730* on Wed Jul 10 09:07:32 2019, in response to DMU, kick this dead horse, again, posted by Avid Reader on Wed Jul 10 04:40:58 2019.* There are exactly zero direct trains from Greenport to NYP. 😩
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Re: DMU, kick this dead horse, again
Posted by SLRT* on Wed Jul 10 15:44:19 2019, in response to Re: DMU, kick this dead horse, again, posted by Olog-hai on Wed Jul 10 06:46:50 2019.* Two-seat rides are experienced by hundreds (thousands?) Of LIRR commuters every day. "Change at Jamaica"; "Change at Babylon"; Or Hicksville. Or Huntington.
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Re: DMU, kick this dead horse, again
Posted by SLRT* on Wed Jul 10 15:49:30 2019, in response to DMU, kick this dead horse, again, posted by Avid Reader on Wed Jul 10 04:40:58 2019.* The RDCs were a hit.
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Re: DMU, kick this dead horse, again
Posted by Dutchrailnut* on Wed Jul 10 15:57:35 2019, in response to Re: DMU, kick this dead horse, again, posted by SLRT on Wed Jul 10 15:49:30 2019.* only once at crossing but we regress ...
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Re: DMU, kick this dead horse, again
Posted by Jackson Park B Train* on Wed Jul 10 16:40:58 2019, in response to Re: DMU, kick this dead horse, again, posted by SLRT on Wed Jul 10 15:44:19 2019.* so if you survey transit riders, the preference for a single seat over even a supposedly "guaranteed" transfer is overwhelming. Having lived for years where half of the trains at my nearest BART station require me to transfer if headed to SF (more often than not), I take whatever comes first--a habit from decades agoin NYC.
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Re: DMU, kick this dead horse, again
Posted by gp38/r42 chris* on Wed Jul 10 16:58:56 2019, in response to Re: DMU, kick this dead horse, again, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Jul 10 09:07:32 2019.* The North fork is booming with winery and tourist activity, and they still run that line like it's 1953.
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Re: DMU, kick this dead horse, again
Posted by Olog-hai* on Wed Jul 10 17:14:12 2019, in response to Re: DMU, kick this dead horse, again, posted by SLRT on Wed Jul 10 15:44:19 2019.* That's my point. When distances go towards the 100-mile mark, that gets very uncompetitive with one-seat rides of other modes of travel.
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Re: DMU, kick this dead horse, again
Posted by Andrew Saucci* on Wed Jul 10 17:19:53 2019, in response to Re: DMU, kick this dead horse, again, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Jul 10 16:40:58 2019.* I don't mind transferring as long as I don't have to lose a seat on the first train to stand on the second.
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Re: DMU, kick this dead horse, again
Posted by lirr42* on Wed Jul 10 18:57:42 2019, in response to Re: DMU, kick this dead horse, again, posted by orange blossom special on Wed Jul 10 07:42:53 2019.* This particular proposal to buy "alternative diesel equipment" for the East End is over and done with...the LIRR diverted the funding allocated to DMU's to purchase work locomotives instead, after they abandoned the idea of using DMU's on the East End after they deemed it too expensive to run a limited quantity procurement (and they didn't bother to make their interest known during the design of the Nippon-Sharyo DMU's, which then allegedly would not clear LIRR's third rail). There's no funding in the current 2015-2019 capital program to finance a DMU purchase, or any diesel equipment, for that matter. Of course, the landscape now is very different. New FRA passenger equipment safety standards mean they could make minor adaptations to off-the-shelf European DMU designs (which are much more common than they are in the US). There are now even BEMU's (battery powered) and HMU's (hydrogen powered) that can offer new alternatives. But LIRR is stuck in the last century, so I wouldn't bet on these ideas being given their due consideration anytime soon...!
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Re: DMU, kick this dead horse, again
Posted by TransitChuckG* on Thu Jul 11 03:26:15 2019, in response to Re: DMU, kick this dead horse, again, posted by Dutchrailnut on Wed Jul 10 15:57:35 2019.* Oh, the oil tanker crash on the Newtown line?
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Re: DMU, kick this dead horse, again
Posted by TransitChuckG* on Thu Jul 11 03:37:40 2019, in response to Re: DMU, kick this dead horse, again, posted by TransitChuckG on Thu Jul 11 03:26:15 2019.* THE STORY: On Saturday, January 2, 1982, a single RDC collided with an ARCO gasoline tanker truck at the Second Street Pike crossing as it was approaching Southampton Station. SEPTA motorman Donald Williams was severely burned in the accident and died several days later. The accident caused flames to shoot fifty feet in the air and created a plume of black smoke visible for several miles. Photographs from the fire indicate the crossing signal equipment was working properly, with lights flashing as flames shot into the air. The Federal Railroad Administration (FRA) later determined that SEPTA did not follow proper safety standards by running single RDCs that were not intended to operate as single units. Members of Conrail unions who had protested in October 1981 commented that SEPTA was not experienced in operating commuter trains and predicted that an accident would occur. The unions also advised that all but two RDCs had to be run in sets of two in order for the crossing signal equipment to activate properly in anticipation of an oncoming train (Conrail had used four-person crews to operate RDCs). The two RDCs that could operate as one-car trains were car numbers 9151 and 9152, which were specially equipped with "excitation", an electronic device which assured shunting of track circuits when operated as a one-car train. Car number 9164, which was not equipped with excitation, was involved in the fiery crash and did not activate the crossing circuits at the proper time. The flashing lights did, however, eventually activate by the time the train entered the Second Street Pike crossing. The National Transportation Safety Board (NTSB) determined that the accident was caused by the failure of RDC 9164 to maintain shunt with the track and constantly activate the warning signal. Additionally, RDC 9164 did not have an excitation device that would have allowed it to maintain constant shunt despite a momentary loss of contact. As a result of the accident, the NTSB recommended that SEPTA modify its grade crossing protection systems to ensure that a momentary loss of shunt would not cause warning devices to fail to function. Additionally, the NTSB recommended that SEPTA modify the passenger doors in their RDCs to make them open outward, not inward, to allow passengers easy evacuation in an emergency situation. SEPTA general manager David L. Gunn ordered more stringent safety precautions along the Fox Chase-Newtown commuter rail line, and state investigators joined federal officials in the investigation of the collision. Gunn ordered that only two-car trains be run on the 15.2-mile single-track line. The order came after officials of unions representing railroad workers said that SEPTA was not following proper safety standards by running single-car trains on the line. SEPTA took over operation of the line from Conrail on an experimental basis in September in an effort to reduce the amount of money spent to run commuter trains. Conrail had used four-person crews to run two-car diesel trains between Newtown and Reading Terminal. SEPTA, however, cut the number of cars and operators in half and terminated the route at Fox Chase Station in the Northeast. At the time of the takeover, angry members of Conrail unions warned that SEPTA was not equipped to run commuter trains and predicted that an accident would occur.
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Re: DMU, kick this dead horse, again
Posted by Q4 on Thu Jul 11 05:43:16 2019, in response to Re: DMU, kick this dead horse, again, posted by TransitChuckG on Thu Jul 11 03:37:40 2019. I thought he was referring to the LIRR RDC one that hit a truck in the late 60's. The Engineer was killed.
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Re: DMU, kick this dead horse, again?
Posted by Avid Reader* on Thu Jul 11 06:28:40 2019, in response to Re: DMU, kick this dead horse, again?, posted by Olog-hai on Wed Jul 10 05:51:08 2019.* But, until something better comes along why not pursuit a pipe dream that can be modified.
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Re: DMU, kick this dead horse, again
Posted by TransitChuckG* on Thu Jul 11 06:34:12 2019, in response to Re: DMU, kick this dead horse, again, posted by Q4 on Thu Jul 11 05:43:16 2019.* Ah, OK, my bad. Anyway that's an interesting story about Philadelphia I posted and it involved an RDC.
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Re: DMU, kick this dead horse, again
Posted by orange blossom special* on Thu Jul 11 13:59:20 2019, in response to Re: DMU, kick this dead horse, again, posted by lirr42 on Wed Jul 10 18:57:42 2019.* I've ridden on a DMU in Texas. Was okay. I just don't understand if this is goign to run on most of the line, or are we talking about a transfer to a lesser used stub and this is all that is going on. And why would a fossil fuel engine be cheaper than electric? Article doesn't say. maybe on here we know, but this article was vague.
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Re: DMU, kick this dead horse, again
Posted by Olog-hai* on Thu Jul 11 16:37:07 2019, in response to Re: DMU, kick this dead horse, again, posted by orange blossom special on Thu Jul 11 13:59:20 2019.* And why would a fossil fuel engine be cheaper than electric? Article doesn't say Has to do with infrastructure, and frequency to justify the expense of infrastructure.
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