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| (1510428) | |
oddball rail transit observations |
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Posted by ntrainride on Sat Apr 20 07:46:12 2019 1. the ride on the lirr brooklyn branch from east new york to flatbush avenue terminal (i don't speak atlantic terminal) is the best rail ride in the city. it's just so stubbornly cool. first of all, east new york is like, the entire history of the city of brooklyn and later brooklyn borough's transportion on rails has been left around.i mean, an elevated multi-line multi-level roller coaster from a railnut's fevered bhaat dreams-like transfer station? an underground four track local express transfer station? a two track "more or less" street-level "more or less" japanese style inner city heavy rail station with basically high speed direct 24/7/365 service in both directions? with ghostly signs showing where you connect to the ghost trains to the ocean shore? hell, the abandoned east new york station of the manhattan beach line to the resorts, hidden well but still there...? yeah, east new york all right... the branch is modern the way the 1930s knew modern was supposed to look like. futuristic and old school. street level-tunnel-elevated-tunnel. it's a brooklyn-loving invention of supreme improvement over what it supplanted. no other borough has a train line quite like it. the way it ends at flatbush avenue is also just very cool. brooklyn saying "well, yeah, okay, this is cool. flatbush avenue; last stop. all out. what? manhattan? sure. go that way..." again, what other borough...has the balls? or the actual reality of the location circumstances that have always (post-south ferry days, of course) supported having a commuter rail terminus like fba? none of course. and it is dang cool to for now anyway be able to take a direct train from cold spring harbor or babylon or bethpage to elevated nostrand avenue station deep in the heart of the brooklyn lands.. dang cool indeed. |
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| (1510437) | |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Sat Apr 20 08:57:45 2019, in response to oddball rail transit observations, posted by ntrainride on Sat Apr 20 07:46:12 2019. The biggest shame is that it isn't connected to Manhattan. For the same price as East Side Access, it probably could have been done, and it would be more useful. |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Sat Apr 20 09:04:35 2019, in response to oddball rail transit observations, posted by Andrew Saucci on Sat Apr 20 08:57:45 2019. If there was fare integration with the subway, it would be almost just as good, especially Manhattan-bound with the 2 and 3 trains right there next to the LIRR tracks. And that would be much cheaper than constructing an LIRR extension. But with LIRR and the subway being separate as they are, it's a shame indeed. |
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: oddball rail transit observations |
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Posted by K. Trout on Sat Apr 20 09:23:24 2019, in response to Re: oddball rail transit observations, posted by New Flyer #857 on Sat Apr 20 09:04:35 2019. With the LIRR as apparently hell-bent on killing Atlantic Terminal service as they are, why not convert it to subway operation? "IRT Atlantic Avenue Line" has a nice ring to it.Not quite sure how you physically tie it into the subway (the BMT is in the way of a flyunder at Flatbush/Atlantic) but you could build a nice super-express service stopping at Nostrand and ENY, reopen Woodhaven, maybe toss in a couple of local stops, and terminate with an across-the-platform transfer at Jamaica a la PATH at Newark. |
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Posted by Steamdriven on Sat Apr 20 09:58:33 2019, in response to oddball rail transit observations, posted by ntrainride on Sat Apr 20 07:46:12 2019. That's an uplifting post. I'm among the tiny minority here who thinks NYC needs commuter rail service -inside- the city boundaries. The distance from city center to edge is too much for subway service, especially at 30 mph. From edge to anything past center, fuggeddit.There needs to be a pay more-get more option to cover most of that distance, in-city commuter rail for 2x subway fare. How about extending MNR to Lower Manhattan, then sinking tunnel segments to Atlantic Ave LIRR (yeah, signals, 3rd rail--- those are solve-able physical plant issues). |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Apr 20 10:54:21 2019, in response to Re: oddball rail transit observations, posted by Steamdriven on Sat Apr 20 09:58:33 2019. The VHS v BETA signals issue will turn into CBTC/ATO before the money can be found. As to "commuter rail" within the 5 boroughs, I have no interest in extending zone or distance based fares anywhere--but the actual trains, at standard MTA fares/passes honored, yes! |
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Posted by AlM on Sat Apr 20 11:04:49 2019, in response to Re: oddball rail transit observations, posted by Steamdriven on Sat Apr 20 09:58:33 2019. I'm among the tiny minority here who thinks NYC needs commuter rail service -inside- the city boundaries.I haven't paid close attention to opinions here, but I've personally seen considerable usage at the Fordham to Woodlawn stations, Bayside, and Penn to Jamaica. I'm sure the West Bronx gets good usage, as will the East Bronx when completed. |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Sat Apr 20 11:15:19 2019, in response to Re: oddball rail transit observations, posted by K. Trout on Sat Apr 20 09:23:24 2019. . |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Sat Apr 20 11:30:39 2019, in response to Re: oddball rail transit observations, posted by AlM on Sat Apr 20 11:04:49 2019. Don't forget Forest Hills and Kew Gardens. Plenty of people to/from there willing to pay the premium for the railroad ride, even if it only goes to Penn Station (imagine if you could get to other places too). |
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Posted by Dan on Sat Apr 20 12:12:18 2019, in response to oddball rail transit observations, posted by ntrainride on Sat Apr 20 07:46:12 2019. Are there any visible remnants of the long-severed connection between the Atlantic Branch and the Manhattan Beach / Bay Ridge branch? |
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Posted by Euclid Avenue A Train on Sat Apr 20 12:16:31 2019, in response to Re: oddball rail transit observations, posted by K. Trout on Sat Apr 20 09:23:24 2019. There was once a Single Track connection from the IRT at Atlantic Avenue - Pacific Street Station to the LIRR Atlantic Avenue (Atlantic) Terminal Station so August Belmont can travel in his private subway car From Grand Central to Belmont Park. https://untappedcities.com/2016/06/07/tracking-down-august-belmont-jr-s-private-nyc-subway-car-the-mineola/ |
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Posted by Euclid Avenue A Train on Sat Apr 20 12:21:01 2019, in response to Re: oddball rail transit observations, posted by Dan on Sat Apr 20 12:12:18 2019. Never was a connection, I think you are confusing this with the connection from Atlantic Branch at Woodhaven to the Rockaway Branch |
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Posted by Dan on Sat Apr 20 12:38:15 2019, in response to Re: oddball rail transit observations, posted by Euclid Avenue A Train on Sat Apr 20 12:21:01 2019. There was a connection but it was eliminated ages ago. |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Apr 20 16:07:00 2019, in response to Re: oddball rail transit observations, posted by tunnelrat on Sat Apr 20 11:15:19 2019. he's speechless |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Sat Apr 20 16:08:51 2019, in response to Re: oddball rail transit observations, posted by Euclid Avenue A Train on Sat Apr 20 12:21:01 2019. the connection starts at apx.warwick st.where the two electric tracks branched off into a 4 track ROW,the two southern tracks were never electricried.they joined the Brooklyn manhattan beach/bay ridge tracks at atlantic ave-n- vansinderren ave where they ramped down to join them. |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Apr 20 16:14:18 2019, in response to Re: oddball rail transit observations, posted by Steamdriven on Sat Apr 20 09:58:33 2019. Been There Done That...Broadway LION's Myrtle-Fifth Avenue Subway. ROAR |
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Posted by K. Trout on Sat Apr 20 18:20:02 2019, in response to Re: oddball rail transit observations, posted by Euclid Avenue A Train on Sat Apr 20 12:16:31 2019. That was in an era when there running-through between rapid transit and rail often happened. Nowadays I feel there is little faith from the rail operator in the success of the branch, so why not try rapid transit instead? |
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Posted by K. Trout on Sat Apr 20 18:20:37 2019, in response to Re: oddball rail transit observations, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Apr 20 16:07:00 2019. I will take it to mean he is dazed by the brilliance of the plan. :) |
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Posted by K. Trout on Sat Apr 20 18:27:12 2019, in response to Re: oddball rail transit observations, posted by tunnelrat on Sat Apr 20 16:08:51 2019. Did this connection survive after the Atlantic branch was buried circa 1940? |
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Posted by K. Trout on Sat Apr 20 20:30:21 2019, in response to oddball rail transit observations, posted by ntrainride on Sat Apr 20 07:46:12 2019. The pre-WWII vision of rapid transit is very depressing when compared to modern visions. There was big-concept thinking (the entire IND Second System, if built, would have put the entire inhabited portion of the city at that time within 1/2 mile of subway service) without forgetting the little guy (the Atlantic Branch being put underground came in 1939 as a result of realizing that it was important to eliminate grade crossings in Richmond Hill - though the lower level of ENY station was actually built circa 1915, with the earlier Brooklyn Grade Crossing Elimination Commission!)I don't think we have that sort of big conceptual planning any more. Sure, there's noise about a Utica Ave subway every few years. And we might, eventually, finish the Second Ave subway sometime this century (it'll be 90 years this year since the first plan was published!). But nobody looks at the earlier plans and asks if there is anything that doesn't currently exist which could be incorporated into a master plan or capital program. Nobody wonders if there is an underserved commuting pattern, it's all about giving extra bandwidth to the existing ones. Even truly new ideas are difficult to advocate for. Triboro RX is a great example. Rapid transit along the Bay Ridge line is a fantastic idea - the crosstown bus options in those areas are slow and crowded, and trying to get from, say, Flatbush to Hunts Point is a long trek through Manhattan with the likely Lexington crowding and delays, or a slightly more direct trip but significantly more expensive via taxi. But, whenever it's proposed every 18 months or so, someone tries to shoot it down with the argument that it doesn't work for their very specific commute, or it doesn't offer a one-seat ride to Stamford, or not everyone will ride it from end to end. And once again the enthusiasm deflates because of the incredibly stupid idea that we must serve all people in all ways, instead of building multiple overlapping and intersecting solutions that enable even more types of travel patterns than what a single line or service can provide. A related problem is that as a society, we prefer short-term buzzword-heavy projects over long-term durable infrastructure. This is why a city councilmember's eyes light up at the phrase "light rail" which is nothing more a new incarnation what every town of moderate size had before 1950; why Elon Musk is invited to build car-size tunnels under Los Angeles just because he's Elon Musk; and why after 87 years we have three two-track subway stations under Second Avenue. Even worse, we get dumbass ideas like the BQX trolley, which serves areas which already have great rapid transit coverage. What happened to the idea of serving transit deserts first? It's well-understood in traffic engineering that expanding capacity on existing corridors will not resolve traffic jams in the long run, because drivers will instead take advantage of the new space and simply cause more traffic. After a while, the traffic jams return. Instead, we're better off trying to cover or even invent different travel patterns. Why can't we try that for public transit? Build more, and expect people to come? It's because of the immensely stupid car-centric culture we constructed after World War II. For 70 years we've labored under the idea that everyone must own their own vehicle. Are personal vehicles useful? Sure! But why are we deluding ourselves that everyone must have one? We got along just fine for thousands of years without them. But we insisted on having everything to ourselves and sprawling out further and further and now nobody can imagine a world where people walk on foot to destinations even 10 minutes away. Thinking big isn't even in our vocabulary any more when it comes to transit. It's seen as an expense, an afterthought, a supplemental service. (If anyone wants to call tolls or congestion pricing a "tax on working-class people", they should learn about bus fare!) Yet nobody thinks twice of approving a major highway project. Nobody thinks better transit solutions are possible. And we all suffer for it, and will continue to suffer until we can finally swing the conversation to not only pro-transit, but pro-moving-people-around instead of pro-flashy-things. |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Sun Apr 21 04:08:19 2019, in response to Re: oddball rail transit observations, posted by K. Trout on Sat Apr 20 18:20:37 2019. I recall through the haze of many, many years, the MTA had a potential plan to have a 75 ft. version of the 85 ft. M-1 car.This "Dreamer" car would be able to navigate the B Division where current 75 ft. cars now travel. Why not take 4, or even better 8 M-2's M-3's or M-4's and sacrifice ten feet of there center sections, and create these "Dreamer" cars for testing and connect the LIRR to the BMT at Flatbush Ave to the tunnel to Chambers Street and back out over the Manhattan bridge to Brooklyn and points East. Who's up for the Challenge? |
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Posted by Avid Reader on Sun Apr 21 04:17:31 2019, in response to Re: oddball rail transit observations, posted by Steamdriven on Sat Apr 20 09:58:33 2019. Yeah, use that westside tunnel and recapture the "HIGHLINE" from the yuppies and over the the bridge to grandma's house, we go.Most of the ROW is there. |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Sun Apr 21 05:44:45 2019, in response to Re: oddball rail transit observations, posted by K. Trout on Sat Apr 20 18:27:12 2019. no |
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Posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Sun Apr 21 06:13:06 2019, in response to Re: oddball rail transit observations, posted by Avid Reader on Sun Apr 21 04:08:19 2019. I recall through the haze of many, many years, the MTA had a potential plan to have a 75 ft. version of the 85 ft. It was not a haze. Some person or persons at the MTA put forward the idea that one type of electric railcar could run on both the subway and the commuter railroads. What we got were the R-44 and the M-1A. Neither of which was completely satisfactory. I cannot speak for the LIRR M-1's but I know that the M-1A's were a maintenance headache from day one. It is one reason that the were retired at the same time as the ACMU's which were several years older. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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Posted by 3-9 on Sun Apr 21 06:16:42 2019, in response to Re: oddball rail transit observations, posted by K. Trout on Sat Apr 20 20:30:21 2019. I don't think major projects for new highways are going to get done in NYC either. Further out is more likely, but that's also more car-oriented areas, where mass transit also becomes less feasible. |
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Posted by K. Trout on Sun Apr 21 06:33:32 2019, in response to Re: oddball rail transit observations, posted by tunnelrat on Sun Apr 21 05:44:45 2019. Thanks. |
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Posted by K. Trout on Sun Apr 21 06:36:09 2019, in response to Re: oddball rail transit observations, posted by IRTRedbirdR33 on Sun Apr 21 06:13:06 2019. Interesting - I was under the impression that the R44 and M1/M2 cars were only designed to have a cosmetic similarity, to show a unified MTA handling all of the region's transit. Didn't know they were meant to have similar engineering/construction as well. |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Apr 21 08:19:25 2019, in response to Re: oddball rail transit observations, posted by Avid Reader on Sun Apr 21 04:08:19 2019. When LIRR went to Chambers Street they used IRT size equipment, which is why the connection at Atlantic Avenue worked.HEY! Mind the GAP! ROAR |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Sun Apr 21 08:32:51 2019, in response to Re: oddball rail transit observations, posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Apr 21 08:19:25 2019. around 1937 their were serious talks about the IND taking over the lirr west of Jamaica and the atlantic division.thats why woodhaven blvd.was built to IND specs with subway type tiles on the wall and room to add turnstiles.this is from the long island press reports of the same era. |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Sun Apr 21 10:26:35 2019, in response to Re: oddball rail transit observations, posted by 3-9 on Sun Apr 21 06:16:42 2019. That's right-- the only project I know that is seriously being considered is tearing down the Sheridan Expressway. They'd love to tear down the BQE and the Cross-Bronx too if they could figure out what to do with the truck traffic. No one is really discussing anything even remotely sensible, such as finishing roads that were never finished and should have been, building new bridges and tunnels, or much of anything at all. They have even spent untold amounts of money reconstructing the Belt Parkway over the last 30 or 40 years, but not one iota of extra capacity has been added in the process (as it logically should have been). |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Apr 21 11:27:55 2019, in response to Re: oddball rail transit observations, posted by K. Trout on Sun Apr 21 06:36:09 2019. The R-44s and the M-1s had virtually the same braking system, RT-5 with the troublesome P wire control. While LIRR and M/N were able to get the bugs out of their cars, NYCT didn’t seem to have the same luck, possibly because of the underground environment of the subway so NYCT went back to the proven technology of the RT-2 (SMEE) braking system with the R-62s and 68s. |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Apr 21 11:31:07 2019, in response to Re: oddball rail transit observations, posted by tunnelrat on Sun Apr 21 08:32:51 2019. It seems that the LIRR was looking to divest itself of many of its lines that operated within the city of NY like the Rockaway Lines which were built to similar specs as the 9 St el structure when the grade Xings were eliminated on the Rockaway peninsula. |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Apr 21 11:38:47 2019, in response to Re: oddball rail transit observations, posted by Avid Reader on Sun Apr 21 04:17:31 2019. Definitely! |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sun Apr 21 11:54:26 2019, in response to oddball rail transit observations, posted by ntrainride on Sat Apr 20 07:46:12 2019. This line you speak of used to go to Fulton Ferry, did it not?Well, here's a view at its peak. Four tracks, almost. Hosting website appears to say 1939.  Or how about 1898, when there was street running?  |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Apr 21 12:12:13 2019, in response to Re: oddball rail transit observations, posted by Andrew Saucci on Sun Apr 21 10:26:35 2019. What do you want? You got more roads in that little county than we have in the whole state of North Dakota.The problem isn't the roads, it's the traffic. GET RID OF THE TRAFFIC! ROAR |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Sun Apr 21 12:22:12 2019, in response to Re: oddball rail transit observations, posted by Andrew Saucci on Sun Apr 21 10:26:35 2019. That's right-- the only project I know that is seriously being considered is tearing down the Sheridan ExpresswayThe Sheridan is a bit of an interesting case that it's basically being turned into a glorified boulevard with a 30-40 mph speed limit, a traffic light for pedestrian access to a park, and a direct ramp from the Sheridan to Hunts Point area to make access easier to the market from the Cross Bronx. Community groups have been pushing for this blaming the highways for the high asthma rates, while not realizing that much of the truck traffic continues toward eastern Bronx with out the same level of asthma. There aren't legions of kids with asthma in Bayside from I-295's traffic or Pelham with I-95's traffic. It's the terrible shape of the housing stock that's probably infested with mold, IMHO. |
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Posted by Joe V on Sun Apr 21 12:44:03 2019, in response to Re: oddball rail transit observations, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Apr 21 11:54:26 2019. Do you know the exact location of the upper photo ? |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Apr 21 12:49:15 2019, in response to Re: oddball rail transit observations, posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Apr 21 12:12:13 2019. The traffic is an essential part of the economic activity.Expensive projects can be undertaken that will reduce the traffic somewhat. You can't eliminate or drastically the traffic without eliminating lots of jobs. |
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Posted by Dan on Sun Apr 21 12:52:41 2019, in response to Re: oddball rail transit observations, posted by tunnelrat on Sun Apr 21 05:44:45 2019. The connection is shown in my 1949 Hagstrom Atlas but stuff stays on maps years after it is eliminated. |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Apr 21 12:52:43 2019, in response to Re: oddball rail transit observations, posted by AlM on Sun Apr 21 12:49:15 2019. And while you are at it you should adjust your sarcasm detector.ROAR |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Apr 21 12:57:33 2019, in response to Re: oddball rail transit observations, posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Apr 21 12:12:13 2019. We have almost TWICE as many cars (per capita) as New York!NY = 539/1000 ND = 1177/1000 ROARING |
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Posted by Dan on Sun Apr 21 12:59:35 2019, in response to Re: oddball rail transit observations, posted by Andrew Saucci on Sun Apr 21 10:26:35 2019. The Korean Vets Parkway (Richmond Parkway) should have been completed all the way to the Staten Island Expressway. |
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Posted by Bill Newkirk on Sun Apr 21 16:12:03 2019, in response to Re: oddball rail transit observations, posted by Euclid Avenue A Train on Sat Apr 20 12:16:31 2019. Terminal Station so August Belmont can travel in his private subway car From Grand Central to Belmont Park. Say, isn't that the redbird the R-22 storm door ? (October 14, 1992) 
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Posted by VictorM on Sun Apr 21 18:07:44 2019, in response to Re: oddball rail transit observations, posted by Joe V on Sun Apr 21 12:44:03 2019. It's looking east from the el structure at Snediker and Atlantic Aves. The building with the cone shaped turret is the old 26th Ward Bank at Georgia Av. The building in the far distance with the sign on the roof was the East NY Savings Bank Bldg at Pennsylvania Av. That single third track on the right was the connection to the LIRR Manhattan Beach Branch via the Bay Ridge line. You can still see the ramp where it descended to the Bay Ridge Branch under the Canarsie el south of Atlantic Av. |
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Posted by italianstallion on Sun Apr 21 18:23:12 2019, in response to Re: oddball rail transit observations, posted by K. Trout on Sat Apr 20 20:30:21 2019. Most excellent post. |
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Posted by italianstallion on Sun Apr 21 18:25:15 2019, in response to Re: oddball rail transit observations, posted by Andrew Saucci on Sun Apr 21 10:26:35 2019. Don't hold your breath. There will be no additional highway capacity built in NYC for the foreseeable future. |
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Posted by italianstallion on Sun Apr 21 18:26:01 2019, in response to Re: oddball rail transit observations, posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Apr 21 12:57:33 2019. How many subways per capita?MEWING. |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Apr 21 19:06:20 2019, in response to Re: oddball rail transit observations, posted by italianstallion on Sun Apr 21 18:25:15 2019. nor should there be. |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Apr 21 19:09:52 2019, in response to Re: oddball rail transit observations, posted by K. Trout on Sat Apr 20 20:30:21 2019. well said, sir. |
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Re: oddball rail transit observations |
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Posted by VictorM on Sun Apr 21 19:11:19 2019, in response to Re: oddball rail transit observations, posted by tunnelrat on Sat Apr 20 16:08:51 2019. You can still see the ramp under the Canarsie el. |
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