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| (1506690) | |
MTA removes or increases more speed limits |
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Posted by italianstallion on Mon Mar 11 17:05:37 2019 Subway Speed Limits Have Been Increased at More Than 50 Locations; More Than 100 Speed-Regulating Signals Have Also Been Recalibrated as Part of Save Safe Seconds Campaign |
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| (1506702) | |
Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Mar 11 20:57:04 2019, in response to MTA removes or increases more speed limits, posted by italianstallion on Mon Mar 11 17:05:37 2019. There was a recent Daily News article on this subject.One item in this article: Agency leadership also has issued several bulletins to train operators in recent weeks directing them to enter stations at higher speeds — a move they call “assertive stops” — and avoid creeping along platforms before coming to a full stop. The directive is a bit concerning to some train operators who worry that they’ll be disciplined if they overshoot the platform by a few feet. “If they want us to be more assertive and come into the stations faster, then they have to be a lot more forgiving and not write us up when the inevitable miscalculation or error occurs,” said Eric Loegel, head of trains at Transport Workers Union Local 100. “They can’t have it both ways.” |
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| (1506708) | |
Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits |
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Posted by N6 Limited on Mon Mar 11 23:06:38 2019, in response to Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Mar 11 20:57:04 2019. Fair enough |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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| (1506713) | |
Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits |
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Posted by FormerVanWyckBlvdUser on Tue Mar 12 05:15:54 2019, in response to Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits, posted by N6 Limited on Mon Mar 11 23:06:38 2019. None in Queens listed. Why? |
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| (1506716) | |
Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Tue Mar 12 06:38:25 2019, in response to Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Mar 11 20:57:04 2019. Don't miscalculate?But in all seriousness just make T/O's accountable for a sustained level of on time performance and make a platform overrun easy to recover from. On many system the T/O just backs up a few feet without fuss. |
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| (1506719) | |
Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Tue Mar 12 08:14:58 2019, in response to Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Mar 11 20:57:04 2019. I think train operators will trust their employer a little more on things like this, when Labor Relations stops handing out so many brooms in the Trial Room. I've heard horror stories from people knowledgeable about this. |
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| (1506734) | |
Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Mar 12 10:54:23 2019, in response to Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits, posted by Jersey Mike on Tue Mar 12 06:38:25 2019. How do you know there's no fuss? |
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| (1506739) | |
Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits |
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Posted by Allan on Tue Mar 12 11:27:06 2019, in response to Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits, posted by Jersey Mike on Tue Mar 12 06:38:25 2019. On the NYC Subway, the T/O is not allowed to back up if they overshoot the platform (unless there a TSS or other Supervision on board and even then it would have to be a serious reason to do so). |
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| (1506741) | |
Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits |
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Posted by italianstallion on Tue Mar 12 11:28:59 2019, in response to Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits, posted by N6 Limited on Mon Mar 11 23:06:38 2019. Why? For decades, coming into stations at a fast clip was the norm. |
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| (1506742) | |
Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits |
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Posted by italianstallion on Tue Mar 12 11:28:59 2019, in response to Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits, posted by N6 Limited on Mon Mar 11 23:06:38 2019. Why? For decades, coming into stations at a fast clip was the norm. |
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| (1506743) | |
Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits |
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Posted by Allan on Tue Mar 12 11:30:37 2019, in response to Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits, posted by Allan on Tue Mar 12 11:27:06 2019. I forgot to add - If it is necessary to reverse to the platform, the T/O will be instructed to go to the other end of the train to pull the train back to platform. |
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| (1506745) | |
Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Tue Mar 12 11:47:38 2019, in response to Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits, posted by italianstallion on Tue Mar 12 11:28:59 2019. For decades NYCT did not give people days in the street for putting a door panel outside a station. |
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| (1506746) | |
Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Tue Mar 12 11:49:32 2019, in response to Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits, posted by Allan on Tue Mar 12 11:30:37 2019. Change ends twice? How long do you think that will take? Wouldn't that severely delay the railroad? |
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| (1506748) | |
Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits |
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Posted by Allan on Tue Mar 12 12:41:00 2019, in response to Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Tue Mar 12 11:49:32 2019. Yes, that is why things like overshoots and re-platforming very rarely occur. |
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| (1506752) | |
Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Mar 12 12:56:34 2019, in response to Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits, posted by Jersey Mike on Tue Mar 12 06:38:25 2019. On many system the T/O just backs up a few feet without fuss.That may no longer be permitted with PTC. There's no protection from a leader backing up into its follower. |
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| (1506753) | |
Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Tue Mar 12 13:10:00 2019, in response to Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits, posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Mar 12 12:56:34 2019. There is no PTC on the subway. |
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| (1506754) | |
Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Mar 12 13:29:34 2019, in response to Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits, posted by Union Tpke on Tue Mar 12 13:10:00 2019. There is no PTC on the subway.The trippers and signal system provide PTC functionality. It will stop the train, if the operator passes a stop signal. It will stop a train, if the operator exceeds a maximum safe speed in a timed track section. One exception is that it does not prevent a leader from backing into its follower. |
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| (1506760) | |
Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Tue Mar 12 14:18:55 2019, in response to MTA removes or increases more speed limits, posted by italianstallion on Mon Mar 11 17:05:37 2019. Thank you. This really opens up the question as to whether CBTC or similar systems are really the answer. Maybe better management of the existing signal system would achieve almost as much benefit for a small fraction of the cost of CBTC (or anything similar to it? |
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| (1506763) | |
Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits |
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Posted by italianstallion on Tue Mar 12 14:26:07 2019, in response to Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits, posted by MainR3664 on Tue Mar 12 14:18:55 2019. You may be right. |
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| (1506764) | |
Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits |
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Posted by Kevin from Midwood on Tue Mar 12 14:33:04 2019, in response to Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits, posted by italianstallion on Tue Mar 12 11:28:59 2019. I’ve been commuting on the Brighton Line for 20 years and don’t recall any overshoots until July 2017. Since then, I’ve experienced three of them, each time on the express. The last such incident was two months ago, during the late AM rush, northbound at Church. That consumed 20 minutes, complete with announcements about waiting for permission to leave. Because the doors never opened, there was no opportunity to transfer to one of the locals that ended up ahead of us.I’m not saying that T/Os deserve harsh punishment—for all I know, equipment issues could be more to blame—but I do know that overrunning a platform is an effective way to waste a lot of people’s time. |
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| (1506765) | |
Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Tue Mar 12 14:33:07 2019, in response to Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits, posted by Allan on Tue Mar 12 11:30:37 2019. That's insane. Sounds like another TA self-inflicted wound. |
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| (1506767) | |
Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Tue Mar 12 14:36:18 2019, in response to Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits, posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Mar 12 13:29:34 2019. To prevent the train from self-tripping, the block ahead of the signal must be clear for the stop to deploy. That's why an NYC Subway train must be protected by at least two signals. |
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| (1506768) | |
Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Tue Mar 12 14:39:15 2019, in response to Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits, posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Mar 12 12:56:34 2019. Under ABS, a train can reverse safely within any block it is occupying. The rule can simply allow a train that overshoops less than one carlength to reverse to the point where the cab is even with the stop point. |
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| (1506770) | |
Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Tue Mar 12 14:40:10 2019, in response to Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits, posted by Union Tpke on Tue Mar 12 13:10:00 2019. Also shoving moves are explicitly not covered by the railroad applicable legislation. |
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| (1506771) | |
Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Tue Mar 12 14:41:46 2019, in response to Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits, posted by italianstallion on Tue Mar 12 14:26:07 2019. He is exactly right. Even the MTA has confirmed that CBTC only offers a 2 tph improvement over existing headways. |
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| (1506791) | |
Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Mar 12 16:53:49 2019, in response to Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Mar 12 10:54:23 2019. Although at the moment it is a violation of NYCTA rules to back up a train any where I don’t suspect there would be any fuss if it were to be allowed. I was riding a Red Line train in Boston that overran a station by one door. All the M/M did was to blow the prescribed signal which was 3 blasts of the horn (Which on NYCTA is a call for a car inspector) back up the short distance into the station where the C/R could open up. No commotion about it whatsoever. |
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| (1506796) | |
Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Mar 12 17:33:13 2019, in response to Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits, posted by Stephen Bauman on Mon Mar 11 20:57:04 2019. I can’t understand any speed restriction lvg 95/4 except a train departing tk F1 and using the Xover. Trains coming straight iron out of F2 shouldn't have any restriction at all. Some of the speed restrictions had nothing to do with road conditions but with nearby NIMBYs who don’t like the sound of passing trains. The restriction on the #1 between 215 St and 207 St was due to complaints from the teachers at a nearby school complained that the trains going by at speed disturbed the students. |
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| (1506806) | |
Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Mar 12 18:33:04 2019, in response to Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits, posted by randyo on Tue Mar 12 17:33:13 2019. There are many noise reduction techniques that the MTA does not employ. If the desired noise reduction is directed to a single listener, the techniques are much easier. |
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| (1506808) | |
Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Mar 12 19:10:28 2019, in response to Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits, posted by Allan on Tue Mar 12 12:41:00 2019. But they sometimes do. On the #7 Manhattan bound local, I was on a train (R33-36s) that overshot 33d Rawson by one complete door set (appx 1/3d carlength on wet rail). The T/O was lucky enough to have an off duty employee riding in the first car. The doors were opened after the conductor was given the OK over the PA from the T/O with the off duty employee protecting the open doors that opened into thin air appx 30 feet over Queens Blvd. If the T/O got away with that, score one for the working class.Back then, locals used to fly downhill into 33d Rawson & slam on the brakes & either stopped too short or just made the 11 mark. Haven't been there in awhile. I wonder if timers were ever installed on that stretch? |
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| (1506818) | |
Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Tue Mar 12 21:01:35 2019, in response to Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Mar 12 19:10:28 2019. Procedures for a station over run are very different today. In fact they were different when I retired in Jan., 2014. I am sure they are at least as restrictive today as then.#1 Call Control Center to inform them of station over run. This could in itself take some time. C/R is to ascertain that T/O called it in. Then C/R to pull cord. Then section of train with all doors in station c/r can open. Section of train that has doors out (naturally the front) crew to key open one door in each car. Then the whole process gets reversed. This process will cause close to a 10 minute delay (Control is usually slow to answer radio and give you permission to start above procedure). C/R resets the cord, t/o recharges, and off they go. TSS will pick up the train enroute to ascertain "crew is fit for duty" (interview). Even a simple thing such as, for example, an M train stopping at the 10 car marker instead of the 8, the crew is to call control of the violation. If you don't call control and if a TSS or supt is riding the train it's your ass. If a customer calls it in, or a station overrun not called in, it's also your ass because they are going to believe the customer. Finally if you are operating a new tech with a black box, car equipment will be asked to check that in the yard. |
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| (1506820) | |
Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits |
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Posted by Steamdriven on Tue Mar 12 22:16:28 2019, in response to Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits, posted by Allan on Tue Mar 12 11:30:37 2019. Why? Just to make the T/O miserable? |
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| (1506821) | |
Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Mar 12 22:28:20 2019, in response to Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits, posted by randyo on Tue Mar 12 16:53:49 2019. There was no fuss afterwards? |
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| (1506822) | |
Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits |
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Posted by N6 Limited on Tue Mar 12 22:57:26 2019, in response to Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits, posted by randyo on Tue Mar 12 16:53:49 2019. "No commotion about it whatsoever." Shouldn't be, it's not a big deal really. Also, there has to be some overruns in order for the T/O's to perfect their stopping. |
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| (1506823) | |
Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Tue Mar 12 23:15:49 2019, in response to Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits, posted by N6 Limited on Tue Mar 12 22:57:26 2019. Labor Relations at 2 Broadway disagrees. They want the t/o's to stop on a dime all day, every trip, every station.Quit or take a promotion if the t/o don't like it. The later is what many of the bosses did! |
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| (1506824) | |
Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits |
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Posted by Ftgreeneg on Wed Mar 13 00:09:16 2019, in response to Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits, posted by Allan on Tue Mar 12 11:30:37 2019. Even that's not allowed. If an overrun occurs after calling RCC the CR opens the back zone while the to keys open the Crew doors in front zone not affected. |
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| (1506830) | |
Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Mar 13 01:24:51 2019, in response to Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Mar 12 22:28:20 2019. No. I don’t know what happened when the train arrived at the terminal regarding any action that might have been taken against the M/M. |
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| (1506831) | |
Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Mar 13 01:34:47 2019, in response to Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits, posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Mar 12 18:33:04 2019. For many years there was a 15 MPOH speed restriction in both directions on el structure N/O and S/O 125 St on the Bway #1 line. It was due to complaints from the residents of the housing projects that were built on the east side of Bway in the area in the late 1950s. For years the residents of the apartments that were there before and the residents on the west side of Bway never complained but the NIMBYs in the new apartments ended up getting accommodated. Some time in the late 1980s newly developed noise deadening tie plates were installed in the area. One of the senior managers in Operations Planning mentioned that sound checks were going to be conducted in the area and WHEN the trains passed the test the speed restrictions would be removed. Notice I said WHEN rather than IF since it was apparent that the MTA one way or the other fully intended to remove the speed restriction and would provide the necessary documentation to back up the decision. |
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| (1506837) | |
Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Wed Mar 13 01:45:40 2019, in response to Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Tue Mar 12 21:01:35 2019. an M train stopping at the 10 car marker instead of the 8, the crew is to call control of the violationThat seems silly, especially considering if there is no stop marker for the length of the train they have to pull up to the next higher number anyway. |
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| (1506851) | |
Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits |
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Posted by Lou from Brooklyn on Wed Mar 13 09:01:21 2019, in response to Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits, posted by Kevin from Midwood on Tue Mar 12 14:33:04 2019. I've been traveling the Brighton since I was born, there have been overshoots. Back in the day of the R32 (without airconditioning) the Motorman would just step out of the cab and stand by the door that was off the plat, not even lock it out.Before those pesky slow orders in the fall we have now, constantly had overshoots sliding past the marker. Now I am just a foamer but nowadays we have some weird operating, with T/O's fanning brakes on dry track. On/Off/On/Off. Whatever happened to power into the station and two applies to the marker and release a little at the end so as not to rock the boat? |
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| (1506852) | |
Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits |
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Posted by Lou from Brooklyn on Wed Mar 13 09:05:53 2019, in response to Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits, posted by Stephen Bauman on Tue Mar 12 13:29:34 2019. The trip does not raise until the train is clear of the block ahead of that signal. Yes the signal is red, but the arm is down. Trains do roll back on occasion. |
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| (1506856) | |
Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Wed Mar 13 10:10:13 2019, in response to Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits, posted by randyo on Wed Mar 13 01:34:47 2019. It was due to complaints from the residents of the housing projects that were built on the east side of Bway in the area in the late 1950s.One of the world's experts on noise control was a Columbia University professor around that time. It's a shame the TA did not consult with him. He was always looking for real life situations for his teaching his lab courses. I took his courses in the late 1960's because acoustics was an interest I did not pursue while in college and graduate school. Some time in the late 1980s newly developed noise deadening tie plates were installed in the area. One key to noise reduction is determining how it's transmitted. It can be through air or through solids (e.g. train wheels to rails to ties to steel elevated structure). The "sound deadening tie plates" are mounted on a rubber layer. This rubber layer decouples some of the vibrations from crossing the rail-rail tie interface. Much better results are obtained when there are two decoupling barriers. This could be accomplished, if the ties also rested on rubber. A second strategy is to reflect any airborne noise at the track away from the apartment houses. This strategy is employed by the JFK AirTrain. The el structure has exterior walls that extend well above track level. They reflect any airborne noise upward and away from sides of the structure. |
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| (1506873) | |
Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Wed Mar 13 13:08:01 2019, in response to Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits, posted by Jersey Mike on Tue Mar 12 14:41:46 2019. Thanks. I love high-tech, and CBTC sounds real nice. But in the case of CBTC on the NYCTA, to me at least, the benefits seem so drastically outweighed by the cost that it just shouldn't be done. |
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| (1506894) | |
Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits |
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Posted by Edwards! on Wed Mar 13 15:28:37 2019, in response to Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Tue Mar 12 19:10:28 2019. Rode an R46 F some years ago from C.I.Train overshot Kings Hwy by at least the first set of doors. All the MM did was say "OK" over the PA...stepped out of the cab...stood at the doorway that missed the platform until the CR closed down. After we went on our way...he never overshot again. |
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Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Mar 13 16:52:05 2019, in response to Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits, posted by Lou from Brooklyn on Wed Mar 13 09:01:21 2019. The qualifying practical that used to be a part of the M/M (T/O) promotional exam no longer exists. I believe I took the last one in 1968. After that, those appointed from the M/M list were given ”acclamation” as part of their school car instruction. |
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| (1506943) | |
Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits |
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Posted by N6 Limited on Wed Mar 13 22:22:38 2019, in response to Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Tue Mar 12 23:15:49 2019. Has anyone at labor relations Operated a train? |
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| (1506944) | |
Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits |
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Posted by N6 Limited on Wed Mar 13 22:23:56 2019, in response to Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits, posted by Edwards! on Wed Mar 13 15:28:37 2019. Right, no biggie. |
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| (1506950) | |
Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits |
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Posted by 3-9 on Thu Mar 14 00:22:17 2019, in response to Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits, posted by randyo on Tue Mar 12 16:53:49 2019. I experienced something like that in Philly. A Market-Frankford train overshot the station a little, so the operator immediately backed the train up. No muss, no fuss. |
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| (1506972) | |
Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Thu Mar 14 19:39:26 2019, in response to Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits, posted by N6 Limited on Wed Mar 13 22:22:38 2019. IDK the people down there and I was blessed and fortunate not have to. But when people take promotions, too many forget where they came from.When I first came down in late 1979 if you messed up they would send you to the Chief Motorman Instructor. Today no more Motorman Instructors and there is no such animal as a Chief TSS' You see Labor Relations, I think David Gunn created it as part of his internal reforms. |
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| (1507038) | |
Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits |
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Posted by Broadway Buffer on Fri Mar 15 11:54:22 2019, in response to Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits, posted by randyo on Tue Mar 12 17:33:13 2019. Sounds like a change to D15 departing from F1. The only restriction in that area on F2 now is 30mph entering 86th St. I'm not surprised about the non-road related reasons for some of the speed limits. A TSS once told me that the 20mph restriction s/o Northern Blvd into 36th St was due to a school for the blind being located in the area, which I initially doubted. |
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| (1507160) | |
Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits |
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Posted by SUBWAYMAN on Sat Mar 16 13:17:35 2019, in response to Re: MTA removes or increases more speed limits, posted by MainR3664 on Wed Mar 13 13:08:01 2019. Part of the reason why they are installing CBTC is because of State of good repair. The old signal system has parts they don't make anymore. CBTC using a newer technology uses parts that are being made. |
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