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A Subway to Staten Island? How a Transit Dream Died |
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Posted by GojiMet86 on Sat Jan 19 16:51:49 2019 https://www.nytimes.com/2019/01/18/nyregion/staten-island-subway-dreams.htmlA Subway to Staten Island? How a Transit Dream Died |
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Re: A Subway to Staten Island? How a Transit Dream Died |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Sat Jan 19 17:57:23 2019, in response to A Subway to Staten Island? How a Transit Dream Died, posted by GojiMet86 on Sat Jan 19 16:51:49 2019. Thank You. I'd love to see a direct rail connection from SI to Manhattan.But as Mr. Oddo points out, we need to focus on more realistic projects. |
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Re: A Subway to Staten Island? How a Transit Dream Died |
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Posted by K. Trout on Sat Jan 19 23:26:09 2019, in response to Re: A Subway to Staten Island? How a Transit Dream Died, posted by MainR3664 on Sat Jan 19 17:57:23 2019. The concept of "only do what is realistic" is what tends to kill big ideas like a Staten Island subway. People will talk about whatever idea you bring to the conversation, no matter the size, long as you present it in a serious manner. You have nothing to lose by trying. |
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Re: A Subway to Staten Island? How a Transit Dream Died |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Jan 19 23:43:17 2019, in response to Re: A Subway to Staten Island? How a Transit Dream Died, posted by K. Trout on Sat Jan 19 23:26:09 2019. "Make no small plans" attributed to Daniel Burnham. |
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Re: A Subway to Staten Island? How a Transit Dream Died |
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Posted by mack c-49 on Sun Jan 20 20:22:36 2019, in response to A Subway to Staten Island? How a Transit Dream Died, posted by GojiMet86 on Sat Jan 19 16:51:49 2019. Has any competent engineering study ever determined that the Verrazano bridge could not support rail rapid transit (or could not be reinforced to do so)?Of course, the same short-sightedness (stupidity) more recently has repeated itself with regard to the Tappan Zee/Mario Cuomo raillessness. When will the 'planners' ever learn to think more broadly? |
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Re: A Subway to Staten Island? How a Transit Dream Died |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Jan 20 22:46:05 2019, in response to Re: A Subway to Staten Island? How a Transit Dream Died, posted by mack c-49 on Sun Jan 20 20:22:36 2019. If I recall, as originally planned, the V/N bridge was supposed to carry rapid transit, but along the way Moses intervened and had the bridge redesigned so that it couldn’t support heavy rapid transit trains. |
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Re: A Subway to Staten Island? How a Transit Dream Died |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sun Jan 20 23:55:15 2019, in response to Re: A Subway to Staten Island? How a Transit Dream Died, posted by mack c-49 on Sun Jan 20 20:22:36 2019. in my experience iot is the extremely stupid and corrupt pols who call the shots. To underline, the GGB to Marin from SF was explicitly designed to accommodate trains but when BART became interested, the Marin pols didn't want rapid transit. They hired a tame engineering firm to "prove" it was infeasible. |
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Re: A Subway to Staten Island? How a Transit Dream Died |
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Posted by Bzuck on Mon Jan 21 09:06:49 2019, in response to Re: A Subway to Staten Island? How a Transit Dream Died, posted by mack c-49 on Sun Jan 20 20:22:36 2019. The new Tappan Zee Bridge was actually built to accommodate rail in the future. The plan is to suspend the rail corridor between the two spans. Please don’t ask me if it will ever happen. |
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Re: A Subway to Staten Island? How a Transit Dream Died |
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Posted by Michael549 on Mon Jan 21 11:34:25 2019, in response to Re: A Subway to Staten Island? How a Transit Dream Died, posted by mack c-49 on Sun Jan 20 20:22:36 2019. In prior discussions on this forum related to the Verrazano bridge, that in addition to the type of bridge built, there was the issue of angle of ascent. The other members explained the issue probably in a way better than I can.Basically the amount of distance the train tracks would have to rise (and lower) is beyond the capability of railroad trains - especially in relation to the Fourth Avenue subway line as it was designed and built long ago prior to the 1960's bridge. So even if one could place train tracks on the bridge, the trains could not "get" to those tracks. Mike |
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Re: A Subway to Staten Island? How a Transit Dream Died |
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Posted by Catfish 44 on Mon Jan 21 11:51:52 2019, in response to Re: A Subway to Staten Island? How a Transit Dream Died, posted by randyo on Sun Jan 20 22:46:05 2019. It was also supposed to have pedestrian walkways.When I was a kid I read that the anchorages could withstand the pull of a quarter billion pounds. |
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Re: A Subway to Staten Island? How a Transit Dream Died |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Jan 21 11:57:22 2019, in response to Re: A Subway to Staten Island? How a Transit Dream Died, posted by randyo on Sun Jan 20 22:46:05 2019. I heard the same story. The V/N bridge was Moses' last big projects, befoe he was lured into giving up his Triborough Bridge & Tunnel Authority kingdom by William Ronan. |
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Re: A Subway to Staten Island? How a Transit Dream Died |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Mon Jan 21 15:10:23 2019, in response to Re: A Subway to Staten Island? How a Transit Dream Died, posted by Bzuck on Mon Jan 21 09:06:49 2019. Even if they put rail on the TZ, there's still the question of how to get it to NYC. The Hudson line would require an extremely awkward slow, sharp curve (which would limit the speed over the bridge, can't have trains going 60MPH downgrade into a tight curve).The Harlem line would be a better bet, if they can somehow loft the ROW over 287 (perhaps something like the Airtain's viaduct?). |
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Re: A Subway to Staten Island? How a Transit Dream Died |
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Posted by italianstallion on Mon Jan 21 16:21:14 2019, in response to Re: A Subway to Staten Island? How a Transit Dream Died, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Mon Jan 21 15:10:23 2019. Engineering studies were done, I believe as part of the EIS. Either the Hudson or Harlem connections are feasible. |
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Re: A Subway to Staten Island? How a Transit Dream Died |
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Posted by italianstallion on Mon Jan 21 16:21:52 2019, in response to Re: A Subway to Staten Island? How a Transit Dream Died, posted by Michael549 on Mon Jan 21 11:34:25 2019. The word is "grade." |
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Re: A Subway to Staten Island? How a Transit Dream Died |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Jan 21 16:52:19 2019, in response to Re: A Subway to Staten Island? How a Transit Dream Died, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Mon Jan 21 15:10:23 2019. The Hudson line would require an extremely awkward slow, sharp curveDepends how much money you want to spend. The eastbound track could start curving southward well before it reached the shore. The Harlem Line tracks are right on the shore of the river. |
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Re: A Subway to Staten Island? How a Transit Dream Died |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Jan 21 16:57:28 2019, in response to Re: A Subway to Staten Island? How a Transit Dream Died, posted by Michael549 on Mon Jan 21 11:34:25 2019. So even if one could place train tracks on the bridge, the trains could not "get" to those tracks.Which is of course nonsense as stated. It all depends how far in advance of the bridge the underground tracks start to rise. What they probably mean is that it would have been politically unacceptable to have subway tracks arise out of 4th Ave and become elevated north of 95th Street. |
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Re: A Subway to Staten Island? How a Transit Dream Died |
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Posted by BILLBKLYN on Mon Jan 21 17:35:44 2019, in response to Re: A Subway to Staten Island? How a Transit Dream Died, posted by AlM on Mon Jan 21 16:57:28 2019. I doubt they were going to do that as their was already a subway in place N/O 95th Street. |
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Re: A Subway to Staten Island? How a Transit Dream Died |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Jan 21 17:40:48 2019, in response to Re: A Subway to Staten Island? How a Transit Dream Died, posted by BILLBKLYN on Mon Jan 21 17:35:44 2019. A subway to SI would have made the 95th St station an alternate (underground) terminal while the main route went elevated to SI starting just south of 86th.There is nothing impossible about this - it just takes money and political agreement. It can still be done. |
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Re: A Subway to Staten Island? How a Transit Dream Died |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Jan 21 19:36:38 2019, in response to Re: A Subway to Staten Island? How a Transit Dream Died, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Mon Jan 21 15:10:23 2019. The speed over the bridge doesn’t have to be limited as long as the signal system slows the the train down to a safe speed before it reaches any tight curves. |
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Re: A Subway to Staten Island? How a Transit Dream Died |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Jan 21 20:24:35 2019, in response to Re: A Subway to Staten Island? How a Transit Dream Died, posted by Elkeeper on Mon Jan 21 11:57:22 2019. It’s too bad he couldn't have had his power wrested from him sooner. The we migh have had rapid transit service to SI. |
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Re: A Subway to Staten Island? How a Transit Dream Died |
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Posted by Bzuck on Mon Jan 21 21:06:26 2019, in response to Re: A Subway to Staten Island? How a Transit Dream Died, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Mon Jan 21 15:10:23 2019. The proposal I remember seeing was the tracks would go into a tunnel which would make a gentle underground curve and join the Hudson line at Irvington. A pipe dream as far as I am concerned. |
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Re: A Subway to Staten Island? How a Transit Dream Died |
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Posted by ntrainride on Wed Jan 23 08:35:42 2019, in response to A Subway to Staten Island? How a Transit Dream Died, posted by GojiMet86 on Sat Jan 19 16:51:49 2019. hblrt over the new bayonne bridge. should have been the plan but this region is, sadly, lacking the foresight and the courage to undertake such a project.this is the place that let a four track(!) railroad bridge get taken down. perhaps a rebuild of the north shore line and some type of passenger service over the arthur kill bridge and up to a connection to secaucus possibly, is still possible. |
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Re: A Subway to Staten Island? How a Transit Dream Died |
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Posted by Q4 on Wed Jan 23 11:11:01 2019, in response to Re: A Subway to Staten Island? How a Transit Dream Died, posted by randyo on Mon Jan 21 20:24:35 2019. Or rapid transit in the median of the LIE and the Van Wyck (QBlvd line to JFK) |
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Re: A Subway to Staten Island? How a Transit Dream Died |
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Posted by Q4 on Wed Jan 23 11:17:03 2019, in response to Re: A Subway to Staten Island? How a Transit Dream Died, posted by Elkeeper on Mon Jan 21 11:57:22 2019. Moses was promised the Long Island Sound Crossing (Oyster Bay to Rye Bridge) which is what lead to his dropping his opposition (he still had some political clout) to the TBTA joining the MTA. |
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Re: A Subway to Staten Island? How a Transit Dream Died |
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Posted by Michael549 on Wed Jan 23 15:01:09 2019, in response to Re: A Subway to Staten Island? How a Transit Dream Died, posted by Michael549 on Mon Jan 21 11:34:25 2019. From a prior message:"In prior discussions on this forum related to the Verrazano bridge, that in addition to the type of bridge built . . . " Verrazzano-Narrows Bridge - Wikipedia "Verrazzano-Narrows Bridge is a double-decked suspension bridge that connects the New York City boroughs of Staten Island and Brooklyn." "The Verrazzano-Narrows Bridge has a central span of 4,260 feet (1,298 m). It was the longest suspension bridge in the world from 1964 until it was surpassed by the Humber Bridge in the United Kingdom in 1981. The bridge has the 13th longest main span in the world, as well as the longest in the Americas. The bridge marks the gateway to New York Harbor. All ships arriving at the Port of New York and New Jersey pass underneath the bridge and must therefore be built to accommodate the clearance under it.[2]" -------- Civil Engineering - What makes suspension bridges unsuitable for railways - Engineering Stack Exchange https://engineering.stackexchange.com/questions/435/what-makes-suspension-bridges-unsuitable-for-railways What makes suspension bridges unsuitable for railways? "There are a few main reasons why suspension bridges aren't used for railroads. The main reason is that suspension bridges are typically used where very long spans are needed. Trains are very heavy, especially when compared to lanes of highway traffic. This means that long spans require very strong support structures, which in the case of suspension bridges are cables and towers. The second reason goes along with the first; trains cause high dynamic loads as they move along the rail. This can increase the vertical loads by 30%. Third is that trains don't really have suspensions, especially freight trains. This means that any movement in the bridge itself has little opportunity to be dampened before it reaches the train. Suspension bridges are relatively flexible by design which makes transferred motion even more of a problem. You do not want the bridge to be rolling under a train! None of these are impossible engineering issues to overcome. But by the time that you have accommodated all of them, you might as well find a different location or build a truss bridge instead." |
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Re: A Subway to Staten Island? How a Transit Dream Died |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Jan 23 17:46:52 2019, in response to Re: A Subway to Staten Island? How a Transit Dream Died, posted by Michael549 on Wed Jan 23 15:01:09 2019. nice general engineering issues, but, weight of fully loaded semis approachs that of lighter design rapid transit cars. In turn, whenever traffic is heavy, the lines of semis increase the net load whereas, the rapid transit trains are not likely to exerience gridlock. So, in my COMPLETELY AMATEUR judgement, eliminating a couple of truck lanes in each direction should provide a tradeoff for subway cars IF MTA begins to go withlighter weight fleets. Of course, MTA could build a special class of lighter cars for service to S I. |
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Re: A Subway to Staten Island? How a Transit Dream Died |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Jan 23 18:14:43 2019, in response to Re: A Subway to Staten Island? How a Transit Dream Died, posted by Q4 on Wed Jan 23 11:11:01 2019. Definitely!!! |
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Re: A Subway to Staten Island? How a Transit Dream Died |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Jan 23 18:22:58 2019, in response to Re: A Subway to Staten Island? How a Transit Dream Died, posted by randyo on Mon Jan 21 20:24:35 2019. As a kid, I remember losing respect for Mayor Wagner, when he sided with Robert Moses and forced Walter O"Malley to take his Dodgers from Brooklyn. So, it wasn't just the subways for me! |
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