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Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction

Posted by Dyre Dan on Tue Mar 6 02:35:28 2018, in response to Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction, posted by Joe V on Mon Mar 5 17:31:10 2018.

It is at least another hour in running time.

Are you sure about that? I would have guessed closer to a half hour.

Anyway, regarding the route through Pittsburgh, is there any chance they would temporarily revive the Broadway Limited? Maybe run it at the same time that the Lake Shore would have run? The two routes used to take the same amount of time in the days that the Pensy competed with the NY Central, right? If they don't, would this be the first time in about a century that there is no direct NY to Chicago train service?

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Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction

Posted by Dyre Dan on Tue Mar 6 02:52:23 2018, in response to Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Mar 5 10:56:29 2018.

They could do the New Rochelle detour at night to get the empty train to Sunnyside for servicing, and bring it back midday, no?

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Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction

Posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Mar 6 11:01:39 2018, in response to Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction, posted by Dyre Dan on Tue Mar 6 02:52:23 2018.

Where do the put it in the mean tiem?

ROAR

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Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction

Posted by Joe V on Tue Mar 6 18:07:45 2018, in response to Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction, posted by Dyre Dan on Tue Mar 6 02:35:28 2018.

There are no plans to so much s run thru coaches from the Pennsylvanian to the Capitol Ltd.

They can transfer passengers in Albany faster than they can combine the 2 trains together.

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Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction

Posted by AlM on Tue Mar 6 18:14:53 2018, in response to Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction, posted by Dyre Dan on Tue Mar 6 02:35:28 2018.

I would have guessed closer to a half hour.

You're probably right. From Mott Haven it's maybe 17 minutes to New Rochelle and 13 minutes to GCT. That extra 17 minutes, doubled, is your extra time. Plus the time it takes to reverse direction.


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Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction

Posted by Joe V on Tue Mar 6 18:57:11 2018, in response to Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction, posted by Dyre Dan on Tue Mar 6 02:52:23 2018.

No.

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Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction

Posted by ro_jo on Wed Mar 7 10:58:47 2018, in response to Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction, posted by Joe V on Sat Mar 3 07:08:13 2018.

Compromise:
How about running via the Oak Point connector?

Amtrak could run via MNR to Highbridge Yard, then via CSX/Oak Point, Through the Yard, and back to Amtrak Territory south of New Rochelle (I think the interlocking is at Pelham?)

This avoids changing ends on the New Haven Mainline, gumming up MO, and wouldn't be quite as far of a detour.

Maybe CSX wouldn't like Amtrak running through the yard at Oak Point? Hard to imagine they'd object.

I'd buy a ticket! Has passenger service ever operated via the Oak Point connector?

-Rob

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Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction

Posted by AlM on Wed Mar 7 12:40:39 2018, in response to Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction, posted by ro_jo on Wed Mar 7 10:58:47 2018.

That's actually quite clever.

But you still need engines at both ends or else a lengthy reversal time.

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Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction

Posted by ro_jo on Wed Mar 7 12:47:53 2018, in response to Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction, posted by AlM on Wed Mar 7 12:40:39 2018.

Thanks!
Probably not a huge issue to stick a Genesis on the rear in Albany, Croton-Harmon, or Highbridge? Preference to Albany if they're already doing the decoupling of the Boston train there.

-Rob

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Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction

Posted by pragmatist on Wed Mar 7 14:51:49 2018, in response to Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction, posted by ro_jo on Wed Mar 7 10:58:47 2018.

Wouldn't the cost of qualifying crews or paying for pilots on territory being used for a relatively short period of time be a major deterrent?

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Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction

Posted by ro_jo on Wed Mar 7 17:10:23 2018, in response to Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction, posted by pragmatist on Wed Mar 7 14:51:49 2018.

No idea what the costs are like.

But you're probably right... It's certainly not Amtrak's inability to think up sweet train routings that's keeping them from considering this idea.

-Rob

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Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction

Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Mar 7 18:26:43 2018, in response to Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction, posted by ro_jo on Wed Mar 7 10:58:47 2018.

Interesting idea: A few thoughts:

1) Qualifying crews on the Oak Pt link would be a problem. CSX would have to provide "pilot" crews. Amtrak would have to pick up the tab.
2) Availability of CSX qualifying crews. AFAIK, they would have to dead head down from Selkirk. That gets expensive.
3) Track conditions on the link & in the vacanity of Oak Pt.They might need an upgrade for passenger service. Any freights that use that trackage goes thru at a little better than a crawl.
4) CSX would have to go along with this in the first place. That in itself could be a dealbreaker.

I'm sure there are more issues but thats all I can think of right now.

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Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction

Posted by AlM on Wed Mar 7 18:42:31 2018, in response to Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Mar 7 18:26:43 2018.

Heh. All the alternatives are complicated, and it's only for 3 months. So Amtrak isn't going to make any big efforts. But it's fun to speculate about the possibilities anyway.



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Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction

Posted by Joe V on Wed Mar 7 18:59:48 2018, in response to Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction, posted by AlM on Wed Mar 7 18:42:31 2018.

The is so typical of so-called "advocates", who seem to want to play train more than anything else. The transfer at Pittsburgh at midnight and 5am is horrible since 40/41 came off, but they they do not bat an eyelash. Running thru cars is not hard to do.

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Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction

Posted by AlM on Wed Mar 7 19:06:51 2018, in response to Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction, posted by Joe V on Wed Mar 7 18:59:48 2018.

The is so typical of so-called "advocates", who seem to want to play train more than anything else.

What are we doing as posters here if not playing train? We're not actually running any rail systems.


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Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction

Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Mar 7 20:11:10 2018, in response to Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction, posted by Joe V on Wed Mar 7 18:59:48 2018.

"The is so typical of so-called "advocates", who seem to want to play train more than anything else"

Whats wrong with fanticising?

"The transfer at Pittsburgh at midnight and 5am is horrible since 40/41 came off, but they they do not bat an eyelash. Running thru cars is not hard to do."

Thats is absolutely correct. I live in this area nowadays & the locals want an extra train or two from Pittsburgh to Harrisburg,where you can change for Keystones to Phila or NYC.
The PA. beancounters in Harrisburg cry poverty. Amtrak says not enough equiptment. CSX/NS who own the track west of Harrisburg say no dice. Too many freights, no room for any more pax trains. Cant win. Excuse after excuse.Thankfully my 2016 Forester runs good...to get hosed by the ever increasing PA tnpk tolls.

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Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction

Posted by pragmatist on Wed Mar 7 20:30:13 2018, in response to Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Mar 7 20:11:10 2018.

If PA forked over the money, everyone would find a way to make it happen...

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Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction

Posted by Joe V on Wed Mar 7 20:30:38 2018, in response to Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Mar 7 20:11:10 2018.

Thru coaches between the Pennsylvanian and the tail end of the Capitol Ltd don't add trains miles, costs little to do, requires 2 more Amfleet coaches to circulate to Chicago, and won't cost Penn DOT a dime.

But the western PA advocates are shooting for 3 Pennsylvanians (extended Harrisburg trains) and no interest to do anything else. They have been stuck at that point for 13 years.

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Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction

Posted by Joe V on Wed Mar 7 20:33:34 2018, in response to Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction, posted by pragmatist on Wed Mar 7 20:30:13 2018.

They are more interested in building rest stops along the Turnpike.
They had a huge increase in the gas tax, and the Tpke tolls are very high. . Penn DOT is loaded with cash.

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Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction

Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Mar 7 20:38:01 2018, in response to Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction, posted by Joe V on Wed Mar 7 20:30:38 2018.

"But the western PA advocates are shooting for 3 Pennsylvanians"

No more. They backed off that. But you can't blame them for aiming high.

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Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction

Posted by pragmatist on Wed Mar 7 21:06:35 2018, in response to Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction, posted by Joe V on Wed Mar 7 20:33:34 2018.

Having it and being willing to spend it where it might be truly useful are sadly two different things...

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Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction

Posted by Dyre Dan on Wed Mar 7 23:13:19 2018, in response to Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction, posted by ro_jo on Wed Mar 7 10:58:47 2018.

Not sure what you mean about Pelham or vicinity. If they could use Oak Point Yard and Connector, they could run from Penn Station, over Hell Gate and into Oak Point Yard, then reverse onto the Connector and proceed onto the Hudson line, right? Is that what you are saying?

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Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction

Posted by VictorM on Thu Mar 8 04:30:53 2018, in response to Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction, posted by Dyre Dan on Wed Mar 7 23:13:19 2018.

There are no switches between the Amtrak tracks and the CSX tracks south of Pelham.

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Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction

Posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 8 06:53:13 2018, in response to Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Mar 7 20:38:01 2018.

So what do they do now ?

I know a few of them and told them your 3 train proposal won't work. It only doubles ridership, while tripling frequency. The incremental accounting is negative. Focus on the thru coaches and add city-pairs to your ridership at little cost. Then maybe a 2nd frequency might work once the western end of Pennsylvania is fortified with more revenue. Whenever Amtrak had 2 frequencies to Pittsburgh, one always went to Chicago.

They don't listen.

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Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction

Posted by AlM on Thu Mar 8 09:31:10 2018, in response to Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction, posted by VictorM on Thu Mar 8 04:30:53 2018.

But there must be switches to route trains into the yard just north of the Hell Gate Bridge. So run the train into that yard, and reverse it.

And Amtrak and MNRR actually merge in New Rochelle, not Pelham.



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Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction

Posted by ro_jo on Thu Mar 8 10:17:43 2018, in response to Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction, posted by AlM on Thu Mar 8 09:31:10 2018.

The Hell Gate carries the two Amtrak tracks, and one freight.
The HG freight track connects into Oak Point yard, but the two Amtrak tracks do not. The three run all the way north up to Pelham where the freight track merges with the Amtrak tracks.
I'm under the strong impression that this is the only connection between the freight track, and the Amtrak tracks. I.e. there is no connection between the freight and passenger tracks on HG or the Queens approach. If you were to change ends in Oak point and stay on the freight track over the HG you'd end up in Fresh Pond yard.

-Rob

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Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction

Posted by AlM on Thu Mar 8 10:32:04 2018, in response to Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction, posted by ro_jo on Thu Mar 8 10:17:43 2018.

Aha!

The merge seems to happen in the Bronx, just south of the bridge over the Hutchinson River, which only has two tracks.

Well, that's one way to keep freight trains from getting in the way of Amtrak trains. :)

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Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction

Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Thu Mar 8 11:32:33 2018, in response to Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction, posted by ro_jo on Thu Mar 8 10:17:43 2018.

"The three run all the way north up to Pelham where the freight track merges with the Amtrak tracks."

Really?! I worked at Oak Pt from 1979 to 12-31-1982 & at that time there were switches at the old Oak tower at 149th St & Brunkner & at Market tower near Hunts Pt. Ave. that would allow you switch from tk 5 (freight main) to the Amtrak main. I guess those towers & switches are long since history.

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Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction

Posted by ro_jo on Thu Mar 8 11:45:41 2018, in response to Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Thu Mar 8 11:32:33 2018.

Interesting!
Were they still running anything through the Port Morris branch when you were there?

-Rob

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Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction

Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Thu Mar 8 14:01:40 2018, in response to Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction, posted by ro_jo on Thu Mar 8 11:45:41 2018.

Yes. SELI & SEOP, road freights from Selkirk. In addition daily jobs went up the Hudson to the sugarhouse just south of the Yonkers Sta. (as the railroad guys called it) & newsprint for the NY Times, down the old NYC freight line to the 60th st loading platform.
Nighttime trips up the Harlem Div & once a week trip up the Put. for the few consignees that still did business with the railroad. All those runs used the Pt Morris branch.

Other than Pt Morris routed traffic included switching work done at Harlem River & the Hunts Pt. produce mkt and switching out the loads for Long Island (and the empties that came back) also went on there daily. WNCH with loads from Cedar hill also ran every other day.
Oak Pt. was a busy place back then. Have no Idea what goes on there now.

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Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction

Posted by 3-9 on Thu Mar 8 19:20:43 2018, in response to Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction, posted by Joe V on Wed Mar 7 20:33:34 2018.

I think you just answered the "why". :-( If the Turnpike is a cash cow, why undermine it by throwing money at a less profitable train service?

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Re: Next Phase—Penn Station Amtrak construction

Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Mar 8 20:57:08 2018, in response to Re: Next Phase-Penn Station Amtrak construction, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Mar 7 20:11:10 2018.

CSX/NS who own the track west of Harrisburg say no dice. Too many freights, no room for any more pax trains

Well, that doesn't make sense, especially given the extant room for four tracks (reduced to two). Not to mention the status of federally-designated high-speed corridor still in place. The problem of course is continued government interference and ownership, never mind the kind of people running the giant Class Is these days.

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Re: Next Phase—Penn Station Amtrak construction

Posted by Joe V on Fri Mar 9 19:36:11 2018, in response to Re: Next Phase—Penn Station Amtrak construction, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Mar 8 20:57:08 2018.

Harrisburgh - Pittsburgh belongs to NS.
There is no government interference nor ownership, and the federal designation of high speed trains means absolutely nothing.

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