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| Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse (1461712) | |
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| (1461991) | |
Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by sand box john on Fri Jan 12 19:48:32 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Olog-hai on Fri Jan 12 12:22:44 2018. Well, let me reword that. How much would they charge us versus those foreign firms mentioned in other posts?Those foreign firms would be subject to the same regulatory and labor requirements, so I would guess plus or minus 3 to 7 percent. John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore. |
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| (1461995) | |
Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by sand box john on Fri Jan 12 19:55:25 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Jan 12 17:47:07 2018. Are the Hudson river & Steinway tunnels bored thru solid rock? It Seems that the NATM method is designed to work best when going thru solid rock. IIRC both tunnels only have sections that go thru bedrock, the rest thru muck thus might not a viable tunneling method for a rebuild.NATM can be used in any conditions, The WMATA Tysons Corner tunnels were through sedimentary sands and gravel. John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore. |
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| (1461998) | |
Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by sand box john on Fri Jan 12 20:03:40 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by geoffc on Fri Jan 12 13:21:39 2018. How did the raw costs of the tunneling costs compare? Accepting that stations and utilities are the real painful part of tunnel building, is it possible to pull out just the tunneling costs?I memory serves the two tunnels in Tysones were in the neighborhood of $300 million. The combined distance of the two NATM bores is just short of 1.25 miles. John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore. |
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| (1462000) | |
Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by sand box john on Fri Jan 12 20:26:04 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Jan 11 21:59:44 2018. Why bother, unless the dimensions within the station and the East River tunnels are also enlarged? And besides, the only real purpose would be to run freight through there; forget about Superliners, due to the high platforms.The future my friend. The next logical step would be doing the same to the east river tunnels along with lowering the tracks through the station. As to the Superlines, you can make a couple of the platforms low level as most of Amtraks rolling stock can berth at both low and high level platforms. Oh and yes run freight through to. John in the sand box of Maryland's eastern shore. |
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| (1462009) | |
Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Jan 12 23:07:49 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by sand box john on Fri Jan 12 20:26:04 2018. "Oh and yes run freight through to."They ran coal trains thru Penn Station during WWII. There was a proposal to run road railers thru Penn Sta to the Hunts Pt produce market in the Bronx in the early 80s. Nothing became of that. |
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| (1462019) | |
Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by pragmatist on Sat Jan 13 00:40:34 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by sand box john on Fri Jan 12 20:26:04 2018. To make an existing high level only station partially low level to add service with low level cars is an ADA non starter. |
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| (1462020) | |
Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Jan 13 00:45:21 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by pragmatist on Sat Jan 13 00:40:34 2018. not to worry. The only cars that require low platforms are the Superliners which are ADA incompatible anyway. At the rate ANY tunnel work gets done, there will be new LD cars. |
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| (1462023) | |
Penn Station and what likely would have happened if it had not been torn down |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Jan 13 01:46:40 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Wed Jan 10 13:29:09 2018. And likely also prevented the Knicks and Rangers from moving to The Meadowlands, as well as prevent that area from becoming WAY worse than it was in the 1970's and '80s.I note this because had the old Penn Station been kept and renovated along with the old MSG (49th-50th on 8th-9th Avenues), in all likelihood that version of Penn Station during the 1970's and early '80s becomes an even worse haven for drugs and crime than it became then (to the point where they likely would have been cries to tear it down with those wanting it saved looked at as scapegoats for the problems of the area even though that had more to do with a drug culture that expanded greatly during the 1960's and continued through the '70s and most of the '80s). Meanwhile, the old MSG would have been eventually deemed too old for the Knicks and Rangers and Sonny Werblin (who was largely responsible for getting The Meadowlands built and while not having the power of Robert Moses certainly had a ton of it with regards to sports back then) likely convinces the then-owners of the Knicks and Rangers to move to what would eventually be built (for the Nets in 1981) as what actually became (then) the Brendan Byrne Arena (which was most recently the IZOD Center before it closed), but with that done a few years earlier and likely opening if not with the racetrack and Giants Stadium in 1976 not too long after with by 1977 the Knicks and Rangers likely playing across the Hudson (and the Nets likely staying put at the Nassau Coliseum when they came into the NBA). A lot of people would have been blaming the Penn Station preservationists with the Knicks and Rangers moving then even if by now they likely would be playing in a newer MSG where one had been proposed to be built on the Javits site in 1986. Penn Station would likely have gone through a very rocky road until around the mid-'90s, but if it survived today likely would have been totally renovated and become much like Grand Central is since it was renovated 20 years ago. |
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| (1462027) | |
Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Jan 13 02:47:47 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Wed Jan 10 14:25:05 2018. As I noted in my other comment, if Penn Station had survived as it was, today it would be looked at positively, but Penn Station likely would have had a rough 30 years or so before it likely would have been renovated in the mid-'90s and likely blamed by preservationists for the problems in the area (that would have been there regardless) and by sports fans for the Knicks and Rangers playing in The Meadowlands (as the old MSG, while likely renovated in the mid-'60s would have been soon after deemed inadequate and especially with the power Sonny Werblin had at that time likely gets the Knicks and Rangers for an earlier version of what became the Brendan Byrne Arena that did actually open in 1981 for the Nets (as the Devils were still known as the Colorado Rockies then, not moving there until a year later). |
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| (1462034) | |
Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Jan 13 07:15:25 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Jan 13 02:47:47 2018. The "New" Penn Station also had a rough 30 years. It was very disgusting from the 1970's and on. We forgot how bad it was in the 1980's. |
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| (1462043) | |
Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sat Jan 13 08:45:31 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by MainR3664 on Fri Jan 12 06:59:09 2018. My lone experience in the old Penn Station was on July 20, 1965 while en route to the World's Fair from Linden, where we were staying with my parents' sponsors. Much of the concourse was still intact, but steel beams for the new Madison Square Garden were starting to appear. The only thing I actually remember was the announcer's voice booming over the loudspeakers as we waited for our return train to Linden that afternoon. Our train departed from Track 2. |
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| (1462078) | |
Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Jan 13 14:44:00 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Sat Jan 13 00:45:21 2018. Superliners are ADA compatible (thus why lower level coach seats are billed "accessible", as is the accessible bedroom), just can't get to the upper level or change cars. No different than an NJT multilevel, can't get out of the shared level area. |
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| (1462079) | |
Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by pragmatist on Sat Jan 13 15:04:42 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Jan 13 14:44:00 2018. They are made accessible, but the new build standard is level boarding. You aren't going to take a line with no low platform service and go backwards. |
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| (1462093) | |
Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by ftgreeneg on Sat Jan 13 16:13:44 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by MainR3664 on Fri Jan 12 06:59:09 2018. Interesting thanks. |
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| (1462101) | |
Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Jan 13 16:35:49 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by pragmatist on Sat Jan 13 15:04:42 2018. Low level boarding is just as level as high level boarding.That said we'll never see Superliners in NYP. I *do* wish they would do a Multilevel based "slumbercoach" with all single occupancy roomettes on each level. They would be able to put 12 rooms on each level, and one accessible one on the mid deck. Rest of the mid deck would be bathrooms and showers. |
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| (1462103) | |
Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by pragmatist on Sat Jan 13 16:58:09 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Jan 13 16:35:49 2018. Low level boarding in its present form is not considered roll on roll off, and that is what is expected today. |
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| (1462142) | |
Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Jan 13 23:35:03 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by pragmatist on Sat Jan 13 16:58:09 2018. Superliner doors are manually operated by the conductor / car attendant anyway. There is a person there who can put the ramp in place. It's no different than a bus that deploys the wheelchair ramp when the driver pushes some buttons. |
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| (1462145) | |
Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Jan 13 23:49:21 2018, in response to Re: The Most Awful Transit Center in America Could Get Unimaginably Worse, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Jan 13 23:35:03 2018. Surfliners are based on Superliners, but with automatic doors.Too late to rip out all the east coast high platforms. Should have been done when the majority of platforms were low. Then the high-speed trains could have been Talgo and the regionals a shortened version of Surfliners, albeit about 1½ feet shorter. |
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