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Predictions for 2018 and beyond

Posted by DieselBusFan on Mon Jan 1 08:27:09 2018

What are your predictions for 2018 and the future? Mine is that there will be no meaningful progress on the Hudson River tunnels and station. Finances, no substantive leadership, and ridiculously long lead times make these projects a fantasy. I do not see new Hudson River tunnels ever being built even though this is a looming disaster. I am a pessimist but also a realist. If Christie had not cancelled the original project, today there would have something nearing completion. Not perfect, but something, much better than nothing.

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(1460630)

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Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond

Posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 1 08:39:35 2018, in response to Predictions for 2018 and beyond, posted by DieselBusFan on Mon Jan 1 08:27:09 2018.

Had ARC not been canceled, they would still be nowhere near completion. The cost overruns would have slowed it to a snail's pass like ESA.

Given the US-DOT Secretary is an obedient robot for the OMB Director, Heritage Foundation, and the stupid Senate majority leader from Kentucky, nothing will happen this year.

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Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!

Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Jan 1 10:05:29 2018, in response to Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond, posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 1 08:39:35 2018.

Well, of course it is needed but there is a small problem with it in case you had not noticed...

So! You think that the Federal Government should pay for everything?

Ain't going to happen.

While this is more than 'just a regional project' it is none the less the extended region that must pay for it.

And That ain't going to happen either.

Trains will terminate in Hoboken and passengers can take the ferry to Manhattan while the existing tunnels are refurbished.

This will also require the closing of the Lincoln Tunnel to all traffic other than buses. Which in turn will require the closing of 10th and 11th Avenue between 42nd Street and 39th Street. Since many NJT Buses cannot fit in PABT, 42nd Street will also become a bus only through affair. This in turn will close Willow Avenue in Hoboken to all but buses operating in both directions.

ROAR

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Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!

Posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 1 10:10:37 2018, in response to Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Jan 1 10:05:29 2018.

Yes, they should pay for "everything". That is what the FTA has done for 50 years. It's called economic impact. We also hand over 80% funding for highway projects even though the urban ones are mostly used by commuters.

You can't ram 150,000 more people in 3 hours through Hoboken, PATH, and ferries.

The Lincoln Tunnel is not going to be closed to all but buses - take the needle out of your arm.

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Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!

Posted by italianstallion on Mon Jan 1 11:00:49 2018, in response to Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Jan 1 10:05:29 2018.

No, the Feds agreed to pay 50%, not everything. State and local pay the other 50%. Sounds like a fair deal. Now the Trumpistas are trying to renege.

And I love when monks from the Dakotas try to tell us how to run New York.

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(1460644)

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Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond

Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jan 1 11:22:25 2018, in response to Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Jan 1 10:05:29 2018.

Trains will terminate in Hoboken

LOL, no they won't. Nobody thinks like that anymore.

I'd prefer a bridge, so that the whole "dual mode" blah-blah can be dispensed with. But millennials are more NIMBY than their hippie forebears.

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Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!

Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jan 1 11:24:17 2018, in response to Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!, posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 1 10:10:37 2018.

Yes, they should pay for "everything". That is what the FTA has done for 50 years

Bad precedent does not mean "keep doing it".

It's called economic impact

It's actually called "government control". And it's only for the purpose of control. It's deliberately broken down everything the private sector built up for the century prior to their doing that.

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Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!

Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Jan 1 11:43:56 2018, in response to Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!, posted by italianstallion on Mon Jan 1 11:00:49 2018.

SOMEBODY has to tell you how to run New York...

Leastwise if you want their money.

ROAR

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Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!

Posted by geoffc on Mon Jan 1 12:07:58 2018, in response to Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Jan 1 10:05:29 2018.

One thing I found very interesting in the RPA's 4th plan was the idea of using the Javits Center basement as a replacement for the PA Terminal. Even if only done for the regional busses, that sounds like an interesting plan.


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Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!

Posted by italianstallion on Mon Jan 1 12:10:07 2018, in response to Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Jan 1 11:43:56 2018.

I believe the Feds should pay nothing for Interstates in the Dakotas. Sounds like a regional problem. They have lots of oil and gas there. Let them pay for it.

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Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!

Posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 1 12:14:31 2018, in response to Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jan 1 11:24:17 2018.

Then there will be nothing. Private sector is not interested in building and running railroads. Keep whining about lower Manhattan and out to Atlantic Terminal (that will never happen either).

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Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!

Posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 1 12:15:49 2018, in response to Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Jan 1 11:43:56 2018.

We all paid how much for I-94 ? 80 % ? 90% ?
So can we tell you how to run North Dakota ?

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Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!

Posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 1 12:16:24 2018, in response to Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!, posted by geoffc on Mon Jan 1 12:07:58 2018.

True.

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Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!

Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Mon Jan 1 12:21:29 2018, in response to Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Jan 1 11:43:56 2018.

So move back & run for Mayor. Couldn't be no worse than the knucklehead thats there now!!

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Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!

Posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 1 12:24:28 2018, in response to Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!, posted by italianstallion on Mon Jan 1 12:10:07 2018.

We also pay for the Empire Builder, which is a good thing, so I don't want to go there.

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Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!

Posted by Dyre Dan on Mon Jan 1 12:32:55 2018, in response to Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!, posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 1 10:10:37 2018.

Closing the Lincoln Tunnel to everything but buses sounds bizarre now. But if Amtrak has to close one of the North River tubes suddenly and without advance warning, and no replacement tunnel is ready, extreme measures will be taken, and that could well be one of them. Drivers who want to cross the Hudson will either divert to the GWB, or wait till rush hour is over, when one or two tunnel lanes may be open to private vehicles. NJT trains will terminate at either Hoboken, Newark or Secaucus, with frequent buses from near NY Penn Station to those locations.

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Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond

Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jan 1 12:35:48 2018, in response to Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Jan 1 11:43:56 2018.

There aren't any overhead train terminals in Manhattan because NYC ran NYC as the big bosses wanted. So that does kinda make sense.

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Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond

Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jan 1 12:48:04 2018, in response to Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Mon Jan 1 12:21:29 2018.

If you can think of someone worse, go ahead.

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Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond

Posted by italianstallion on Mon Jan 1 12:49:20 2018, in response to Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jan 1 12:48:04 2018.

Bo Dietl.

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Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!

Posted by Steamdriven on Mon Jan 1 13:15:47 2018, in response to Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!, posted by italianstallion on Mon Jan 1 11:00:49 2018.

Considering how we did with the 2nd avenue Theftway, I think it should have been run by monks from N.D. ;-)

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Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!

Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Jan 1 13:39:20 2018, in response to Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Jan 1 11:43:56 2018.

This, coming from someone in North Dakota, where there are no working railroad tunnels! I understand that the Cartwright Tunnel, now used for pedestrians and hikers, needs a lot of work. It was the ONLY RR tunnel in your Badlands State. Tell your religious superior that you want to help redeem it!

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Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!

Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Mon Jan 1 13:53:31 2018, in response to Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!, posted by Dyre Dan on Mon Jan 1 12:32:55 2018.

Holland tunnel would also be for cars, due to lanes too narrow for standard buses.

And Hoboken has a fully functional multi-slip ferry terminal, save the bus slots for other areas.

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Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond

Posted by FormerVanWyckBlvdUser on Mon Jan 1 13:54:35 2018, in response to Predictions for 2018 and beyond, posted by DieselBusFan on Mon Jan 1 08:27:09 2018.

This is the year we finally get Trump and Pence outta here. And into their nice comfy orange jumpsuits deep inside a SuperMax.

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(1460688)

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Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond

Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jan 1 14:11:04 2018, in response to Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Mon Jan 1 13:53:31 2018.

Eh? The Holland Tunnel fits buses just fine. All except the double-deckers of operators such as Megabus.

Hoboken's ferry slips are not "fully functional" for vehicular traffic. Never mind not having an equivalent ferry terminal on the other side of the Hudson anymore.

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Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond

Posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jan 1 14:12:19 2018, in response to Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond, posted by FormerVanWyckBlvdUser on Mon Jan 1 13:54:35 2018.

You want to talk political stuff, go to OTChat. Don't pull the same stunts that ruined SubTalk.

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Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond

Posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 1 14:13:07 2018, in response to Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jan 1 14:11:04 2018.

102" wide buses were banned for many years.

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Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond

Posted by FormerVanWyckBlvdUser on Mon Jan 1 14:20:22 2018, in response to Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jan 1 14:12:19 2018.

And a happy new year to you too.

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Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond

Posted by Steamdriven on Mon Jan 1 14:41:18 2018, in response to Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jan 1 14:12:19 2018.

Amen.



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Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Jan 1 14:47:16 2018, in response to Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Jan 1 11:43:56 2018.

NY is a DONOR state; ND a recipient. Bluntly put, if NYS Fed taxes were capped at Fed expenditures in NYS, funding would be a done deal with plenty of slack for the kleptocrats/grafters.

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Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Jan 1 14:49:17 2018, in response to Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!, posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 1 12:24:28 2018.

I agree we are a single nation. A re-reading of No Man Is an Island is in order for many fellow citizens,along with repeating the Golden Rule.until they actually believe it.

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Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond

Posted by r33/r36 mainline on Mon Jan 1 15:13:09 2018, in response to Predictions for 2018 and beyond, posted by DieselBusFan on Mon Jan 1 08:27:09 2018.

This photo will be possible again, peep the route letter

https://www.nycsubway.org/perl/show?4782

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Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!

Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Mon Jan 1 16:05:56 2018, in response to Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!, posted by Dyre Dan on Mon Jan 1 12:32:55 2018.

Where do we get all these buses and operators from?

Realistically not available.

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Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond

Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Mon Jan 1 16:18:38 2018, in response to Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond, posted by FormerVanWyckBlvdUser on Mon Jan 1 13:54:35 2018.

No matter if I agree or disagree, that that comment to OT Chat.

The question dealt with rail, not politics!

A debate here would get the frozen mud slinging. Do it there!

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Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!

Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Jan 1 16:25:34 2018, in response to Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!, posted by italianstallion on Mon Jan 1 12:10:07 2018.

I could say "But you do want to eat, don't you"

But I'll not go there because I quite agree with you. The Fed should get out of the highway business as well. All the do is collect a gasoline tax and then dole it out for pet projects for pet senators.

Eliminate fex road taxes and fed road monies, and let the states collect the taxes and use them as needed.


That said, The operation of transportation in and around NYC and the north east IS A NATIONAL INTEREST and SHOULD be funded.

But that will not happen so, plan B : Convert the Lincoln Tunnel, that third tube, into LRV use only, from there you can run LRV trains down both 34th Street and 43nd Street.

Make both 34th and 42nd int bus/LRV use only.

(Part of LION's plan to eliminate private cars south of 60th Street.0

ROAR

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Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!

Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Jan 1 16:28:41 2018, in response to Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!, posted by Joe V on Mon Jan 1 12:14:31 2018.

The private sector will not build or run railroads.

But the private sector WILL BUY TAX FREE MUNICIPAL BONDS and good interest rates and thus the improvements CAN be funded.

And if the whole thing fails and they get no money back that is not my problem they took the risk when they agreed to the high interest rates.

ROAR

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Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!

Posted by Peter Rosa on Mon Jan 1 16:30:50 2018, in response to Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Jan 1 10:05:29 2018.

The real problem is that if the project ever got full approval it would take a very, very long time to be completed, probably on the order of a full human generation. Short of putting the Chinese in 100% control of the entire project I see no easy way out.

My blog

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(1460715)

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Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!

Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Jan 1 16:38:02 2018, in response to Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Mon Jan 1 16:05:56 2018.

Lotsa Martz and other carriers have beese cooling their heels in Manhattan, when they could be pressed into shuttle service between SEACACUS and Manhattan.


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Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!

Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Jan 1 16:39:59 2018, in response to Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!, posted by Elkeeper on Mon Jan 1 13:39:20 2018.

I do want to redeem it, and of course the draw bridge... but......



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Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond

Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Jan 1 16:41:24 2018, in response to Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond, posted by FormerVanWyckBlvdUser on Mon Jan 1 13:54:35 2018.

Boy are you smoking something!

They are doing the right things the right way which is such a breath of fresh air after eight years of leftist socialist obomaites.

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Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!

Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Jan 1 16:42:20 2018, in response to Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Jan 1 14:47:16 2018.

NOT


ROAR

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Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond

Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Jan 1 16:43:25 2018, in response to Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond, posted by r33/r36 mainline on Mon Jan 1 15:13:09 2018.

Ah... But not the blue doors!

LION remembers when those cars were NEW and were the CAT's MEOW!

ROAR

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Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!

Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Jan 1 16:46:23 2018, in response to Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!, posted by Peter Rosa on Mon Jan 1 16:30:50 2018.

WE SHOULD HIRE THE CHINESE to do it!

ROAR

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Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Jan 1 16:56:07 2018, in response to Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Jan 1 16:38:02 2018.

Hey! this isn't BusChat. There is a reason for trains--more pax fewr individual vehicles, crews. Not to mention that electrically hauled trains are inherently cleaner than the equivalent capacity in diesel buses.

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Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!

Posted by randyo on Mon Jan 1 17:07:07 2018, in response to Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Jan 1 16:25:34 2018.

Wile I agree that private cars use should be restricted S/O 60 St it canít be entirely eliminated since some people need to bring cars into that area for legitimate reasons. First handicapped individuals would need to bring their cars into that area to go to work since the NYCTS is not 100% accessible. Also I do a number of my gigs in midtown and lower Manhattan and need my car to bring my sound equipment and the multiple instruments I play to the clubs I play in and public transit canít handle what I need to bring. There are also other occupations that require the almost instant availability of persons line doctors and other emergency personnel that would make the use of a private auto a necessity. Of course if those individuals who donít absolutely need cars to get to Manhattan were eliminated from the area, it would be easier for those who do need to.

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(1460724)

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Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Jan 1 17:09:04 2018, in response to Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Jan 1 16:25:34 2018.

And you can count the farmers not taking "price supports" on your fingers. IT IS A SINGLE NATION. Much as I despise the attitudes of some residents, we are all in this together. Cooperating to make everything work better is the route to go. Because the completely unproductive money shuffling class have sponged up way too much of the total money in the country, they need to be taxed heavily in order to finance a decent standard of living for all of usand continue building necessary infrastructure. The idea that a RR exec should be paid $84 million while there are homeless on the streets is disgusting--not to mention contrary to the supposed preaching of most religions professed by the crooked pols.

So, while I would build less highway mileage, and discontinue so-called essential air subsidies, I vote to subsidie Amtrak, urban transit etc. Plenty of money if we truly reformed taxing and found a way to cut down on the grafters.

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(1460725)

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Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond

Posted by randyo on Mon Jan 1 17:09:11 2018, in response to Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jan 1 12:35:48 2018.

Yet ironically, when subways were first proposed, it was the bosses who either ran or had interest in the elevated railways who opposed subway construction in favor of els.

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(1460727)

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Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!

Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Jan 1 17:12:03 2018, in response to Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Jan 1 16:42:20 2018.

show the ##.

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Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond

Posted by randyo on Mon Jan 1 17:13:31 2018, in response to Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Jan 1 16:43:25 2018.

When I was a M/M those trains were only 5 years old and IMHO were the best post war rapid transit cars on the NYCTS. Even the R-38s through 42s couldnít match them for operational capability.

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Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!

Posted by italianstallion on Mon Jan 1 17:18:10 2018, in response to Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Jan 1 14:49:17 2018.

+1,000

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(1460738)

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Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!

Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Mon Jan 1 17:25:08 2018, in response to Re: Predictions for 2018 and beyond : No new tunnel needed!, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Jan 1 16:46:23 2018.

Even the Three Stooges would get it done sooner!

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