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| Re: Late Night R to Whitehall St [Poster Image] (1413098) | |
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Re: Late Night R to Whitehall St [Poster Image] |
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Posted by Kriston Lewis on Fri Oct 21 18:59:34 2016, in response to Re: Late Night R to Whitehall St [Poster Image], posted by Union Tpke on Fri Oct 21 18:02:17 2016. I was off by a few letters. |
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Re: Late Night R to Whitehall St |
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Posted by Lou From Middletown NY on Fri Oct 21 19:59:06 2016, in response to Re: Late Night R to Whitehall St, posted by Kriston Lewis on Fri Oct 21 17:29:27 2016. Of course, they won't say WHY they are doing this....the teases... :P |
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Re: Late Night R to Whitehall St |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Oct 22 02:38:45 2016, in response to Re: Late Night R to Whitehall St, posted by randyo on Fri Oct 21 13:52:47 2016. FWIW During the 13 years or so the south side of the MB was closed, they did make that switch. |
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: Late Night R to Whitehall St |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Sat Oct 22 09:03:37 2016, in response to Re: Late Night R to Whitehall St, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Oct 22 02:38:45 2016. In the early 90s, the M was the express, such that all West End trains went express and the N and R were both local all the way (no express 36th to 59th). M, N, and R all went through Montague.I guess therefore it was decided that it was better for the M to "join up" with the B north of Pacific and run 4th Ave Express rather than at 36th, which would have meant 3 4th Ave locals. But I also thinking switching concerns at 36th had something to do with it and they wanted no merges or divergences at 36th. In 1994, the M and N did their switch such that the M became all local and the N became the 4th Ave express, though through Montague of course. In this case, the N was making the switch north of Pacific that the M used to make but the N was now running express all the way from Pacific to 59th. The only sense I see in having a 4th Ave express at night starting Nov. 7 would be the D because the D has to merge at some point with the N and R, whether it be at 36th or Pacific. For the N to leave its "place" in the line just to skip 4 stops and come right back over is more trouble than it's worth. That's how I felt whenever the Q would be rerouted through Montague and they would actually switch it to run it Broadway Express, just to come back to the local north of 34th St. Why bother? |
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Re: Late Night R to Whitehall St |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Sat Oct 22 11:50:38 2016, in response to Re: Late Night R to Whitehall St, posted by K. Trout on Wed Oct 19 01:46:34 2016. Why so early? These changes are still two weeks away, does it really take that long to put up all the signs on platforms and at entrances? |
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Re: Late Night R to Whitehall St |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Oct 22 15:19:48 2016, in response to Re: Late Night R to Whitehall St, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Oct 22 02:38:45 2016. True, but at that time something had to make the switch since there was no Manny B service so it was either the M which it was originally or the M but in that case it really made no difference which service used the switch but one of the services had to. |
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Posted by SubBus aka ENY Local on Sat Oct 22 16:55:28 2016, in response to Re: Late Night R to Whitehall St [Poster Image], posted by Union Tpke on Fri Oct 21 18:02:17 2016. Yep, that's it! Thanks for sharing.... |
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Re: Late Night R to Whitehall St |
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Posted by zac on Sun Oct 23 08:56:12 2016, in response to Re: Late Night R to Whitehall St, posted by New Flyer #857 on Sat Oct 22 09:03:37 2016. All of the comments I've read so far ignore one thing, that passengers going to 4th Ave stations don't want to change trains late night when the frequency is so low.As an example, just last night I was coming home from 23rd St/Bway and need the Q. Of course a Q had just passed by on the express track, with an N in the station. The N pulls into Union Sq but the Q was already pulling out, which of course means a 12-15 minute wait. Later at night, that Q would stop at 23rd. If the D ran express it would likely bypass Dekalb, and this at the only time it actually does stop there. Still wish it would stop there when the B isn't running. The N is coming in from Montague, so it will run local. That switch at Pacific seems to be off-limits these days even though it was used for about 90 years prior. |
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Re: Late Night R to Whitehall St |
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Posted by BrooklynTrain on Sun Oct 23 09:40:47 2016, in response to Re: Late Night R to Whitehall St, posted by Dyre Dan on Sat Oct 22 11:50:38 2016. Such a needed improvement: Will knock at least 40 minutes off commutes.Eliminates a 20+ minute wait for a D or N which is often severely delayed, and if the D or N pulled into 36th St even 1 minute past the R shuttle's scheduled departure, the R shuttle wouldn't wait and had already been sent thru 36th already. Then another 20 minute wait for the next R shuttle. The last improvement the MTA needs to make is the late Saturday evening R to Bay Ridge. Every other R from Queens drops out at Whitehall, so there is severe overcrowding late Saturday evenings on the R line. Population has exploded along the R line in recent years, so it boggles the mind why the MTA hasn't stopped these "every other R goes to Brooklyn" at that time. |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Oct 23 09:45:24 2016, in response to Re: Late Night R to Whitehall St, posted by BrooklynTrain on Sun Oct 23 09:40:47 2016. Will knock at least 40 minutes off commutes.??? Instead of having to wait for 2 trains each of which comes every 20 minutes, now you only have to wait for one. I would think that would be at most a 20 minute savings on average. |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Sun Oct 23 09:57:34 2016, in response to Re: Late Night R to Whitehall St, posted by AlM on Sun Oct 23 09:45:24 2016. It would be a 20-minute savings at most, a 10-minute saving on average. "At most x on average" doesn't make much sense.But my question was, does it really take over two weeks to post the signs for this change? |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Oct 23 10:13:07 2016, in response to Re: Late Night R to Whitehall St, posted by Dyre Dan on Sun Oct 23 09:57:34 2016. "At most x on average" doesn't make much sense.If the current schedules are extremely badly timed, extending the R could really save 20 minutes on average. Unlikely, but possible. I agree 10 minutes is more likely but that would take a lot more detail to demonstrate, and wasn't worthwhile when I was only baffled at the 40 minutes. |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Oct 23 10:39:01 2016, in response to Re: Late Night R to Whitehall St, posted by AlM on Sun Oct 23 09:45:24 2016. ha |
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Posted by BrooklynTrain on Sun Oct 23 17:16:40 2016, in response to Re: Late Night R to Whitehall St, posted by AlM on Sun Oct 23 10:13:07 2016. The 40 minute savings:Example that currently happens all too often: Get to Atlantic at 1:23am, having just missed both a D and N after transferring from the IRT. The next N or D gets delayed & doesn't arrive until 1:47am, which pulls into 36th at 1:56am. Unfortunately, the 1:56am R shuttle at 36th was sent out early at 1:54am. Wait for another cycle of N and D trains to arrive. Finally get the 2:16am R shuttle and get to Bay Ridge at 2:29am. That's currently a 1 hour 6 minute ride from Atlantic to Bay Ridge. Now it can be cut to 22 minutes (assuming the R comes right after the N and D at Atlantic). |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Mon Oct 24 02:46:50 2016, in response to Re: Late Night R to Whitehall St, posted by BrooklynTrain on Sun Oct 23 17:16:40 2016. And if you just miss an R, it will be 42 minutes.You can't reasonably expect schedule coordination between IRT and BMT (except at Queensboro Plaza), but you can expect that they would avoid things like missing the connection at 36th St. by two minutes. Why would they have done that, especially when they knew that there had been a delay on the train that should connect with it? Better handling of the scheduling, with no extra equipment needed, would have cut 16 minutes off your trip (if the R came two minutes after your train, instead of two minutes before). That would have meant a total trip time (from your arrival at Atlantic) of 48 minutes. Since it seems they can't handle the schedule coordination right, the R to Whitehall should improve things. But why they can't handle it isn't clear. 24 minutes without an N or a D also seems outrageous, unless there was some kind of blockage between DeKalb and Atlantic (and there's no reason to think there was, especially since you said this kind of thing happens "often"). |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Mon Oct 24 07:32:03 2016, in response to Re: Late Night R to Whitehall St [Poster Image], posted by Union Tpke on Fri Oct 21 18:02:17 2016. Wow!! Real nice!! Let's see if this level of service survives the next fiscal crisis... (I hope it does..) |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Mon Oct 24 09:19:05 2016, in response to Re: Late Night R to Whitehall St, posted by BrooklynTrain on Sun Oct 23 17:16:40 2016. It is pretty pathetic that even with two 4th Ave local services at night, there is little reduction in average waiting time at those stations since the D and N come 2 minutes apart and then nothing for 18 minutes (scheduled). That apart from the fact that they see any sense at all in sending out a southbound R shuttle early, especially when there is an N about to come in that can catch it. If anything, the R should leave late southbound. Especially at night, these connections should not be rocket science!Let's see what happens with the extended R. How intriguing (putting it nicely) it would be if all three services came one right behind the other within 6 minutes - worse, if the R comes at the end and misses connecting with both the D and N (and somehow misses a Q at DeKalb too)! |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Oct 24 13:27:26 2016, in response to Re: Late Night R to Whitehall St, posted by Dyre Dan on Mon Oct 24 02:46:50 2016. Back in the day before we had so called “line managers” the zone trainmaster would make sure that if the mainline were running late, the shuttle would be held to make the connection with at least one of the mainline services. Now with each line manager looking for the best on time performance trains will leave on time regardless of how badly it screws the passengers. |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Mon Oct 24 18:43:10 2016, in response to Re: Late Night R to Whitehall St, posted by New Flyer #857 on Mon Oct 24 09:19:05 2016. Amazing anything runs on time during the midnight hours thanks to all the flagging/track gangs. |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Tue Oct 25 03:39:05 2016, in response to Re: Late Night R to Whitehall St, posted by New Flyer #857 on Mon Oct 24 09:19:05 2016. Hopefully with B division countdown clocks, overnight R riders will be able to make decisions on where to transfer. If they see an 18 minute wait for the next D they might go for the F at 4th Av, or the A/F at Jay. Or possibly even the 1 at Whitehall. |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Oct 25 14:54:57 2016, in response to Re: Late Night R to Whitehall St, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Mon Oct 24 18:43:10 2016. Backing the late 1970s/early 1980s, there were so many track gangs on the IRT, that schedules were adjusted to increase running time overnight to absorb the delays caused by track gangs and other GOs. Some of the running times even exceeded rush hour running time which are normally slightly more than non rush times anyhow. |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Oct 25 20:53:28 2016, in response to Re: Late Night R to Whitehall St, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Tue Oct 25 03:39:05 2016. Or they can make decision as to whether to roll out their sleeping bag and camping kit on the platform for the long wait. |
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Posted by BusMgr on Tue Sep 12 01:13:18 2017, in response to Late Night R to Whitehall St, posted by MainR3664 on Tue Oct 18 17:40:09 2016. Not long ago I was in Brooklyn using the "R" train from 95th Street. Doing so reminded me of its extension, during overnight periods, to the Whitehall Street station in lower Manhattan. And later, when I was looking at the NYCTA's late night subway service map, I recalled that there is another subway service terminating in lower Manhattan, the "J" train. So I began thinking about why two separate services would both terminate in lower Manhattan, mere blocks from each other, rather than operating as a single, through, service, between 95th Street and Jamaica Center, during the overnight periods. Essentially, a revival of the "RJ" service of years past.I looked at the NYCTA staff summary for the "R" train service extension (dated June 1, 2016, included in the Transit & Bus Committee Meeting package for June 2016, at page 31, for insight as to factors considered by the NYCTA in making the extension. The reasons for the extension were to provide direct access for "R" train passengers to several additional neighborhoods in Brooklyn and lower Manhattan, to make direct transfer connections to several other subway lines and the Staten Island Ferry, and to elminate the necessity of transfers to the "D" or "N" trains and a concomitant 20-minute wait. The only alternative considered by the NYCTA (besides doing nothing) was to extend the "R" to midtown Manhattan or Queens. An extension to midtown Manhattan was rejected as being impracticable for lack of an adequate relay location. An extension to Queens—presumably meaning along the IND Queens Blvd. line to Continental Avenue—was rejected for causing conflicts with maintenance work and for providing minimal rider benefits. It appears as though NYCTA never considered extneding the "R" train overnight on an "RJ" route. Such a service would appear to increase efficiency, at least marginally, by eliminating two relay locations in lower Manhattan, and their associated recovery periods. The service would provide additional through service for both "R" and "J" passengers, eliminating the need for multiple transfers (though admittedly probably for not a great number of passengers). On the negative side, "R" passengers would have a longer walk when connecting to the Staten Island Ferry, and they would lose a direct connection to the "1" train at Whitehall Street. Should the "R" and "J" trains be combined during overnight periods? Why or why not? |
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Posted by The Silence on Tue Sep 12 12:11:34 2017, in response to Re: Late Night R to Whitehall St, posted by BusMgr on Tue Sep 12 01:13:18 2017. The answer currently is rather simple:One correction before we begin, the R does not relay in Manhattan, it uses the center track at Whitehall. So you're only removing one relay; the J's. Your RJ route would require putting the entire R fleet to bed at night because it can't enter the BMT Eastern. But on other hand, the J uses mostly R32s, which are banned from the Montague tube. This means you would need more than just the usual late night assignments for the J, you might need close to it's rush hour fleet to cover it and the short line R. Which would mean having to poach trains from the M, which would need them back in six hours. Which at the moment might be easy, but once the M goes back to normal it's not going to be easy. Just from a rolling stock logistics standpoint this would be hard to justify. |
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Posted by Ancient Mariner on Tue Sep 12 13:12:42 2017, in response to Re: Late Night R to Whitehall St, posted by The Silence on Tue Sep 12 12:11:34 2017. In addition, it would require putting the connection from Broad Street south into the Montague Street tube back into passenger service. There must be some costs involved in doing this (additional inspections, maybe?) which would be difficult to justify for an owl-only service. |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Sep 12 14:03:14 2017, in response to Re: Late Night R to Whitehall St, posted by Ancient Mariner on Tue Sep 12 13:12:42 2017. Is the Nassau-Montague connector fit for passenger service? |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Sep 12 14:06:11 2017, in response to Re: Late Night R to Whitehall St, posted by The Silence on Tue Sep 12 12:11:34 2017. Since you brought up the J relay at Broad St, there was a brief time when the Jamaica Line “stub ended” on R-1 tk in Broad St station and went right back to Jamaica over the tail switch without relaying. It was right after service on the Culver into Nassau St ended so it didn’t interfere with through service into Montague St. Since there is no longer any through service past Broad at all, I wonder why the TA hasn’t through to revive that operation. |
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Posted by SLRT on Tue Sep 12 14:33:34 2017, in response to Re: Late Night R to Whitehall St, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Sep 12 14:03:14 2017. Why would it not be? It has to be maintained anyway. |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Sep 12 17:32:48 2017, in response to Re: Late Night R to Whitehall St, posted by randyo on Tue Sep 12 14:06:11 2017. When I got off a mid-day J a few months ago, when it stopped at Broad Street, and it dumped. I don't know if that means it relayed right there or not. |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Sep 12 17:46:33 2017, in response to Re: Late Night R to Whitehall St, posted by SLRT on Tue Sep 12 14:33:34 2017. With the idiots at the MTA, one must ask. So, when the Montague tunnel was closed for rehab work, they also redid the tunnels to Broad Street, right? |
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Posted by Chicago44 on Tue Sep 12 17:49:23 2017, in response to Re: Late Night R to Whitehall St, posted by BusMgr on Tue Sep 12 01:13:18 2017. They should have the D train run express in Brooklyn during overnight hours to reduce congestion on the local tracks between Atlantic Av & 36th St as well as at DeKalb Av. |
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Posted by AlM on Tue Sep 12 17:55:02 2017, in response to Re: Late Night R to Whitehall St, posted by Chicago44 on Tue Sep 12 17:49:23 2017. 3 trains every 20 minutes does not cause congestion. |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Sep 12 17:55:34 2017, in response to Re: Late Night R to Whitehall St, posted by Chicago44 on Tue Sep 12 17:49:23 2017. I agree 100%! |
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Posted by BrooklynTrain on Tue Sep 12 22:55:33 2017, in response to Re: Late Night R to Whitehall St, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Sep 12 17:55:34 2017. The super-long routes (think the F or the daytime R) are very delay prone, especially when there is late night track work on any portion of the route. A late night train running from Parsons-Archer to 95th via the J line would create far more problems than it's worth. Everything is working perfectly now.For example, last night, the 11:35pm R shuttle out of Whitehall left a bit late, but still arrived in Brooklyn AHEAD OF two connecting southbound N trains that were back-to-back (behind the R train). That first N train was severely delayed. Had R train riders at Whitehall (or other stops south of Whitehall) been forced to wait for this severely delayed N train, they would have had a lengthy wait for that N, followed by just missing the R shuttle, then another 20 minute wait for the next R. Would have been a total nightmare. Plus, D train riders got a direct connection to the R at DeKalb last night (both trains waited for each other). The R train extension to Whitehall was VERY much needed last night. And every night. Whitehall to 95th is the perfect length, and the perfect compromise. |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Wed Sep 13 06:51:18 2017, in response to Re: Late Night R to Whitehall St, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Sep 12 17:46:33 2017. I rode the R to Manhattan through Montague last week, around Mid-Day. I got a quick glance up the Broad Street connection- it was blocked with several red flashing lanterns. So it was either being serviced that day- or may in fact, not be in good shape right now. |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Sep 13 07:05:36 2017, in response to Re: Late Night R to Whitehall St, posted by MainR3664 on Wed Sep 13 06:51:18 2017. Did they have barrier bar across the tracks like the stub tracks north of Chambers Street ? |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Wed Sep 13 08:47:21 2017, in response to Re: Late Night R to Whitehall St, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Sep 12 17:46:33 2017. It's a fair question as it is clear that the goal of that work was to have the tunnel opened as fast as possible, not to make sure that work was done on a segment of track that nobody planned to use in the near future. |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Sep 13 08:51:45 2017, in response to Re: Late Night R to Whitehall St, posted by BusMgr on Tue Sep 12 01:13:18 2017. I believe the R to Whitehall is OPTO, so it would cost $$$ to do this. |
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Posted by SLRT on Wed Sep 13 12:34:18 2017, in response to Re: Late Night R to Whitehall St, posted by Joe V on Wed Sep 13 07:05:36 2017. If they do that, they've lost the only direct connection between the Eastern and Southern Divisions. |
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Posted by SLRT on Wed Sep 13 12:38:59 2017, in response to Re: Late Night R to Whitehall St, posted by New Flyer #857 on Wed Sep 13 08:47:21 2017. The tunnel was closed for a long time. That is a major junction and key connection, passenger service or not. |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Sep 13 13:19:07 2017, in response to Re: Late Night R to Whitehall St, posted by SLRT on Wed Sep 13 12:34:18 2017. They don't seem to care. It is not the BMT anymore. Right now, the Eastern Division is a offshoot of the ex-IND. |
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Re: Late Night R to Whitehall St |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Wed Sep 13 13:59:29 2017, in response to Re: Late Night R to Whitehall St, posted by Joe V on Wed Sep 13 07:05:36 2017. I'm not sure. My train passed by quickly, and well...it was dark. |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Sep 13 15:55:47 2017, in response to Re: Late Night R to Whitehall St, posted by Joe V on Tue Sep 12 17:32:48 2017. Probably not. The arriving crew probably was relieved either by the leaving crew who would relay the train and bring it to Jamaica or by a pull T/O who would bring it to the relay position while the arriving T/O changed ends for the return trip. |
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Re: Late Night R to Whitehall St |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Sep 13 16:56:36 2017, in response to Re: Late Night R to Whitehall St, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Sep 13 08:51:45 2017. R doesn’t do OPTO since all trains are 600 ft with no cutting done. |
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Re: Late Night R to Whitehall St |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed Sep 13 20:03:13 2017, in response to Re: Late Night R to Whitehall St, posted by Joe V on Wed Sep 13 13:19:07 2017. The BMT Eastern Division remains the perpetual step-child of the NYC subway system. |
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Re: Late Night R to Whitehall St |
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Posted by Nilet on Wed Sep 13 21:00:54 2017, in response to Re: Late Night R to Whitehall St, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Sep 13 08:51:45 2017. It's not OPTO. |
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Posted by SubBus aka ENY Local on Thu Sep 14 11:57:21 2017, in response to Re: Late Night R to Whitehall St, posted by MainR3664 on Wed Sep 13 06:51:18 2017. There is a long term GO in effect through that area..... |
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Posted by 3-9 on Thu Sep 14 19:14:40 2017, in response to Re: Late Night R to Whitehall St, posted by SLRT on Wed Sep 13 12:38:59 2017. I've seen out-of-service J trains go south through Delancey, presumably to the shop - wouldn't they be heading through the Montague St connection to get to Coney Island? |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Sep 14 19:35:32 2017, in response to Re: Late Night R to Whitehall St, posted by 3-9 on Thu Sep 14 19:14:40 2017. Not if an R32/R42 - they can't go that way. They'd be more likely headed to 207th. |
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Posted by 3-9 on Thu Sep 14 21:32:23 2017, in response to Re: Late Night R to Whitehall St, posted by Joe V on Thu Sep 14 19:35:32 2017. No, they were R-179's, new trains. |
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