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| (1430997) | |
re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by ntrainride on Thu Mar 23 06:22:57 2017 gotta be the least expensive way to re-introduce high speed linear rail transit service to a city neighborhood. it would really give a boost to that entire part of queens. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 23 07:34:51 2017, in response to re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by ntrainride on Thu Mar 23 06:22:57 2017. They need t open up the sidewalk and put in some glass bricks to open it up to daylight. It could be a security problem late at night with infrequent trains. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by ntrainride on Thu Mar 23 07:43:20 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 23 07:34:51 2017. but at least the core of the station is intact. a general cleanup, new signage and lighting, and improved street access should do the trick. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Charles G on Thu Mar 23 07:45:41 2017, in response to re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by ntrainride on Thu Mar 23 06:22:57 2017. That is an interesting idea, especially with the upcoming "shuttlizification" of the Brooklyn-Jamaica stretch. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 23 08:58:45 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Charles G on Thu Mar 23 07:45:41 2017. Think about it if headed to Wall Street.Both the A and the J, each a half-mile away in each direction are a schlep. Figure LIRR Woodhaven - Atlantic Terminal is 15 minutes. 5 minutes transfer and depart on the IRT 10 minute ride to Wall Street. Total 30 minutes. J train from Woodhaven Blvd to Broad Street is about 38 minutes. A train from Rockaway Blvd to Broadway-Nassau is 27 minutes, but that is not Wall Street. So a transfer to another subway for one station, or walk is another 10 minutes. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Mar 23 09:02:18 2017, in response to re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by ntrainride on Thu Mar 23 06:22:57 2017. gotta be the least expensive wayThe Woodhaven Jct station lies within 1/2 mile of 4 existing subway stations. These are the 104th St and Rockaway Blv stations on the A and 104th and Woodhaven Blv on the J/Z. 48% of Queens residents live further than 1/2 mile from a subway stop. Reopening the Woodhaven Jct LIRR station would not reduce this percentage. There should be two parameters that measure a project's return: its cost but also how many people it helps. Woodhaven Jct is inexpensive but it does not help people who do not currently enjoy convenient subway access. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu Mar 23 09:04:22 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Charles G on Thu Mar 23 07:45:41 2017. the upcoming "shuttlizification" of the Brooklyn-Jamaica stretch.If they do a lot of ladies from Bed-Stuy who do household and nanny work in the five towns area are going to lose their one-seat rides. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 23 09:07:17 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Mar 23 09:02:18 2017. Yeh it does help. It speeds their trip up to lower Manhattan, and they may have a crack at a comfortable seat for half the trip. The train will zoom through anyway. It could even encourage people off express buses. The Woodhaven SBS boondoggle plan doesn't even have an express bus stop at Atlantic Av. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu Mar 23 09:07:31 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 23 07:34:51 2017. When Woodhaven was still open, a city cop went into the station a half-hour before train time and stayed until the train left.The station needs to be a lot brighter and probably have a police presence whenever the station is open. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 23 09:11:27 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by SLRT on Thu Mar 23 09:04:22 2017. If they have a LIRR monthly to Zone 1 and a Metrocard monthly for tyhe rest of their trip, they make save cost an a monthly to just zOne 3 and the monthly Metrocard. I think that Shuttle would fall under NYCT Metrocard fare control. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 23 09:12:57 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by SLRT on Thu Mar 23 09:07:31 2017. Very true. Needs a lot of CCTV, mirrors, skylights, and a cop. It's not the greatest neighborhood after hours. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Mar 23 09:17:20 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 23 08:58:45 2017. Both the A and the J, each a half-mile away in each direction are a schlep.I think you need to quantify schlep. 1/2 mile is a 10 minute walk. 25% of NYC residents live further than 1/2 mile from a subway station. They would not consider being 1/2 mile away from a subway station a schlep. After the success of its first two lines, Paris decided Metro expansion's goal should be to place a stop within 900 meters of every location in within that City's borders. They followed that policy. 900 meters is approximately 0.56 mi. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 23 09:25:04 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Mar 23 09:17:20 2017. A schlep is a ride on the J train and it can't be overcome.I was also looking at running times from the 3 Woodhaven Blvd/Rocakway Blvd Stations to Wall Street stations. If you live on Jamaica Ave, keep taking the J. If you live closer to Atlantic Av, take the LIRR. It does not matter what the situation is rapid transit deserts like eastern Queens. The abandoned station is right there with trains zipping through and it can be used, just like LIRR-Elmhurst, which I think has less potential than this. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Mar 23 09:32:17 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 23 09:07:17 2017. It speeds their trip up to lower Manhattan, and they may have a crack at a comfortable seat for half the trip...The scarce transit funds have been lavished on people who already have transit service. None of the transit funds have been spent on people who currently lack such service. It's an equity issue that needs to be addressed. Several parameters combine to create lack of seats. Among these are a surplus of passengers and a scarcity of trains. NYCT can run more trains during the peak periods. The Woodhaven SBS boondoggle... I agree that SBS is a boondoggle. The bigger boondoggle is adding more transit to area that are already served at the cost of ignoring areas that are not. Part of the intellectual cover for this discrimination is that SBS or BRT can provide grade separated rail performance at a fraction of the cost. It doesn't. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 23 09:44:19 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Mar 23 09:32:17 2017. Compared to the Taj Mahal stations on the SAS, this is nothing, and the station is physically there.We all know the TA will not add any A or J trains. The best the J will ever do is extend the J/Z skip-stop period of 5-minute intervals from 60 to 90 minutes. They'll claim load guidelines, no equipment, gotta send more trains to Far Rockaway, etc. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Fulton Frank on Thu Mar 23 09:45:41 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 23 09:25:04 2017. Shortcut to Wall St is your example. That would serve all those investment bankers and analysts that live in Woodhaven. Ha ha!Just being facetious. I think it's a good idea for al the reasons stated here. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 23 09:53:47 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Fulton Frank on Thu Mar 23 09:45:41 2017. There are the cafeteria, mailroom, cleaning, and restaurant workers to service the stuffed shirts. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Mar 23 10:04:27 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 23 09:25:04 2017. A schlep is a ride on the J train and it can't be overcome.J service can be sped up. I was also looking at running times from the 3 Woodhaven Blvd/Rocakway Blvd Stations to Wall Street stations. Before choosing a criterion for performance measure, would it not be appropriate to first determine what the origin-destination pair enjoys the biggest share? LIRR-Elmhurst, This is an example of what has happened without rational metrics to evaluate projects. Spending priorities are based on political influence. The LIRR-Elmhurst station lies is about 300 feet from the existing Elmhurst Ave local stop. It will cost $35M and provide no service benefit to those who are beyond walking distance to an existing stop. The only beneficiaries will be those who do not wish to associate with the hoi polloi who currently use the subway. Once built, its users will have no need to maintain the existing subway service. Using their influence that resulted in the station's rebuilding, they will demand that subway service be scaled back to save money. (Sorry, for the political rant.) |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 23 10:14:22 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Mar 23 10:04:27 2017. The J train would need an express run down all of Broadway-Brooklyn, or building an el from Cypress Hills to ENY. Neither of those will ever happen. They can also tighten the schedule a few minutes, but dispatchers will stab it for M trains and that won't work.Yes, we can do O&D analysis. What drives Elmhurst is also interminable wait for weekend R trains, because the TA does not know how to run an inter-divisional train. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Mar 23 10:15:16 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 23 09:44:19 2017. Compared to the Taj Mahal stations on the SAS,...If you have followed SubChat and SubTalk, you should remember that I opposed the SAS as being unnecessary. I posted the turnstile counts to show how little it is being used, compared to the inflated projections. the TA will not add any A or J trains. The best the J will ever do is extend the J/Z skip-stop period of 5-minute intervals from 60 to 90 minutes. They'll claim load guidelines, no equipment, gotta send more trains to Far Rockaway, etc. I think we have to separate what's physically possible from the TA's responses for not providing adequate service. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Thu Mar 23 10:46:31 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 23 09:11:27 2017. That's funny because nothing has been said about that happening whatsoever |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 23 11:01:15 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by NIMBYkiller on Thu Mar 23 10:46:31 2017. They cannot justify that volume of service with LIRR fares, which are even higher than express buses. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Thu Mar 23 11:15:18 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 23 10:14:22 2017. Peak-direction express service on Broadway from East New York to Marcy should be feasible- it actually existed in my lifetime.As for straightening out the el between Cypress Hills and East NY- they debated that in the late 50s right until 1966. Not only didn't it happen- by 1968, they were talking about demolishing much or even all of the el!! |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Thu Mar 23 11:16:06 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by SLRT on Thu Mar 23 09:04:22 2017. yeah- I think shuttlezification is a terrible idea. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 23 11:21:04 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by MainR3664 on Thu Mar 23 11:15:18 2017. Physically feasible, but could never be justified. Ridership is too heavily skewed west of Alabama Av, unlike the 1960's. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Mar 23 11:54:50 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 23 11:21:04 2017. Ridership is too heavily skewed west of Alabama Av, unlike the 1960's.It really depends on how much of the Jamaica Center and Sutphin-Archer count is assigned to the J/Z. Not counting Bway-Jct or the two Archer Ave stops, the totals are roughly 64K vs. 99K in favor of stops west of Bway-Jct. However, the total for the two Archer Ave stops is 114K. Assuming 25% walk down 2 levels, that brings the eastern total up to approximately 93K. That's not so heavily skewed. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 23 12:58:28 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Mar 23 11:54:50 2017. But now assign Bway Jct loadings amongst the 3 trunk lines, and it gets very murky. You'd have to figure transfers form the L & A, those headed east verses west, as well as turnstile counts from the street, distribute them, and figure which way they are headed.There's also heavy reverse peak load that rides the J between Bway Jct and Jamaica. In the AM, some of that is evacuees off the reverse peak Z that terminates there, but others are just getting on from the street or other lines. The load easily doubles. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by sloth on Thu Mar 23 13:55:30 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by MainR3664 on Thu Mar 23 11:16:06 2017. Of course, it smells like an incremental attempt to free themselves of having to provide Brooklyn service at all.So, even though Woodhaven could be brought back into service fairly easily (ADA compliance being the only major expense), it would be a low-ridership station on a line the LIRR isn't interested in. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by sloth on Thu Mar 23 14:05:50 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Mar 23 10:04:27 2017. Regarding Elmhurst, a 10-minute direct commute to Penn or eventually GCT is not comparable to Queens Blvd local service. It could draw riders from Grand Ave, and from 82nd and 90th as well. The tracks already exist, so we're talking platforms, elevators, and staircases. Compared to pie in the sky plans to build new infrastructure into transit deserts, it's cheap, and has a tangible benefit. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 23 14:19:22 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by sloth on Thu Mar 23 13:55:30 2017. MTA sees this line as having a rapid transit-style service.I don't think LIRR service planning as much to say about it. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Thu Mar 23 15:21:58 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by sloth on Thu Mar 23 13:55:30 2017. That's what I think- they'll make the service worse and worse, then claim "low ridership" as an excuse to kill it completely. May take 10 or 15 years- but we've seen this game before. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Mar 23 15:24:12 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by sloth on Thu Mar 23 14:05:50 2017. Regarding Elmhurst, a 10-minute direct commute to PennAs per current Pt Wash schedule, running time between Woodside and Penn is 11 to 12 minutes. Add 1/3 the running time between Woodside and Main St and the running time between Elmhurst and Penn will be between 14 and 15 minutes. Queens service is spotty on the Pt Wash during am rush hour. It's only 2 trains per hour for trains making local stops between Bayside and Penn. Add 15 minutes average waiting time to your trip. LIRR makes only 1 stop in Manhattan. That's great, if your destination is Penn. However, most business destinations are now north of 42nd St. Travel from Penn to the midtown destination must be added - another 15 minutes. That 10 minute direct connection is closer to 14 (travel) + 15 (wait) + 15 (last mile) = 44 minutes. Running time for the R between Elmhurst Ave and Herald Sq is 31 minutes with a 7 minute headway (3.5 min wait time) That makes the maximum trip 35 minutes and less for getting off uptown. Running time for the M between Elmhurst Ave and Herald Sq is 27 minutes with a 6 minute headway (3 min wait time). This makes the maximum trip 30 minutes and less for getting off uptown. .... is not comparable to Queens Blvd local service. You're right. The Queens Blv local service is quicker, when all factors are included. It [LIRR] could draw riders from Grand Ave, and from 82nd and 90th as well The walking distance to LIRR would further add to the LIRR's longer commute time. pie in the sky plans to build new infrastructure That generally characterizes plans to extend subway service to 25% of NYC's population that's not within walking distance of an existing station. ...it's cheap, and has a tangible benefit. vs. what characterizes plans to provide at best marginally improved service to those who are within walking distance of an existing station. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 23 15:35:45 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Mar 23 15:24:12 2017. Correct.Not to get caught up with one-seat ride mentality to Penn Station. For estimating running times, I add half the service interval to actual trip time in motion. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Mar 23 15:39:14 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 23 12:58:28 2017. I omitted Bwy Jct because it really does not figure into balancing service beteen east or west of Bway Jct. This does permit me to ignore all the transfer permutations you enumerated and greatly simplify calculations.The reason for choosing Bway Jct as the boundary is that's where express service could start. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 23 15:48:38 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Mar 23 15:39:14 2017. OK, both local and express starts there, but realistically speaking, people will load onto the express to and from Jamaica. So it would balance service in the Jamaica train's favor,I assume the local's terminal is Bway Jct. But given the J/Z lasts for an hour, I can't see such a express/local service replacement being more than an hour either.So the other 23 hours a day, we are back to the current schlep. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by italianstallion on Thu Mar 23 16:55:44 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Mar 23 10:04:27 2017. " Using their influence that resulted in the station's rebuilding, they will demand that subway service be scaled back to save money."That's ridiculous. No neighborhood leader has ever demanded that subway service be scaled back to save money. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 23 17:21:58 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by italianstallion on Thu Mar 23 16:55:44 2017. Community leaders are not interested in saving TA operating costs.In the unlikely event that LIRR skims away many IND passengers in Elmhurst from that one staion, it is only one station, and not enough to change load factors to affect frequencies. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Thu Mar 23 17:24:33 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 23 11:01:15 2017. What's the volume of service? Remember, it's not an independent shuttle. It will still be fed connections off every LIRR train that stops at Jamaica. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Thu Mar 23 17:25:41 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by MainR3664 on Thu Mar 23 11:16:06 2017. There are still some rumors that during peak hours certain trains may still thru-run. They're not physically separating it from the rest of the road. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 23 17:28:09 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by NIMBYkiller on Thu Mar 23 17:24:33 2017. Yes, it's an independent shuttle, off Platform F. Part of the point is no more dove-tailing at Jamaica.Intervals I believe are top be 7 - 10 minutes rush hour, 15 minutes off-peak. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 23 17:30:26 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by NIMBYkiller on Thu Mar 23 17:25:41 2017. Rumors on Subchat yes, but I have seen no concrete plans. The track diagrams I saw means no way to access any track at Jamaica lower than 6.They want those double slip switches all the way across gone and conflicting moves eliminated with more Main Line service to Manhattan. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by italianstallion on Thu Mar 23 18:03:18 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 23 17:21:58 2017. Yes, true. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by italianstallion on Thu Mar 23 18:04:02 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 23 17:28:09 2017. That's actually pretty good. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Thu Mar 23 18:27:25 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 23 14:19:22 2017. Cut their losses & give the line to the IRT. Re-connect tracks at Atlantic Ave, open up Woodhaven, install signals, have a dedicated platform & turnstiles at Jamaica so you have direct, quick one seat ride to downtown Manhattan. This too will free up some LIRR equiptment for increased service needs demanded by the opening of the ESA & 3d track of the main line & double track to Ronkonkoma.Give them a service alternative & they will come. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by sloth on Thu Mar 23 18:32:50 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by MainR3664 on Thu Mar 23 15:21:58 2017. I haven't heard a clear explanation, or even a good theory, of why they want to pursue this course of action.Yes, crossing Hempstead trains over in Jamaica is a pain in the ass. But nowhere near an unsolvable problem or a good enough reason. More likely they're looking at savings in labor and infrastructure maintainence. They did look into subcontracting Oyster Bay service a few years ago I believe, and that might be where this is headed. Which is really too bad, given that Brooklyn is something of a destination these days, and the line has at least some untapped potential. If they had a completely enclosed transfer at East New York to the "L" at Atlantic that didn't involve a dark corridor reeking of piss and a crossing of the Atlantic Avenue service road at grade, well, that trip might become a little more popular, for example. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Thu Mar 23 18:48:23 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Thu Mar 23 18:27:25 2017. ...one seat ride from Jamaica that is.. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 23 18:53:54 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by italianstallion on Thu Mar 23 18:04:02 2017. There are pros and cons. Fare structure is critical. Zone 1 fares, and Zone 1 to 3 fares are ridiculous. Some people in Kew Gardens and Forest Hills can handle that, but not along Atlantic Av."City Fare" has limitations too. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Mar 23 18:54:55 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by sloth on Thu Mar 23 18:32:50 2017. The underpass connects to the Atlantic Avenue sidewalks, so if you use the dank underpass, you don't have to cross the service road at grade. There is no crosswalk or other signage which might make cars stop for pedestrians. If you do use the platform exits. It's also a shitty neighborhood and people may be unwilling to use it at night. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by sloth on Thu Mar 23 18:54:57 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Mar 23 15:24:12 2017. It takes 7 minutes to get from Woodside to Penn regardless of what the schedule claims. Add 3 minutes to reach Elmhurst = 10 minutes. Eastbound trains are given an enormous amount of padding to Flushing.Yes, for East Side trips during rush hour, in the pre-GCT era, the subway is competitive. Have you ever tried the Queens Blvd local nights or weekends? Half hourly Port Wash service will be a godsend in comparison. Are you assuming that everyone who uses those subway stations lives right next to them? Because that's a pretty sloppy assumption. Anyone on the south side of Roosevelt, or to the northwest of Grand Ave, who has to walk a few blocks as is, could reasonably be expected to use Elmhurst. |
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Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Mar 23 18:55:45 2017, in response to Re: re-open lirr woodhaven underground, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Thu Mar 23 18:27:25 2017. FRA. Nuff said.These Shuttle trains will still be FRA trains still with some crossing over with regular LIRR service. |
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