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NYC T Line

Posted by BusRider on Sat Sep 17 17:58:35 2005

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I was looking at an old map and i saw a line named the T. What was it and where did it go. I think its the now Brooklyn half of the D.

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Re: NYC T Line

Posted by Arrow III MU on Sat Sep 17 17:59:45 2005, in response to NYC T Line, posted by BusRider on Sat Sep 17 17:58:35 2005.

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T line was the late nite/weekend West End Shuttle from Coney Island to 36 Street-4 Ave.

Professor J

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(142066)

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Re: NYC T Line

Posted by L Train on Sat Sep 17 18:13:07 2005, in response to Re: NYC T Line, posted by Arrow III MU on Sat Sep 17 17:59:45 2005.

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The T will be the letter designation if/when the SAS is built.

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(142070)

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Re: NYC T Line

Posted by Red Line to Glenmont on Sat Sep 17 18:25:18 2005, in response to Re: NYC T Line, posted by L Train on Sat Sep 17 18:13:07 2005.

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Before the Chrystie St. connection to the 6th Avenue Subway was built:

The T Train was the West End Express. It ran express weekdays from Coney Island over New Utrecht Avenue and the Manhattan Bridge to Astoria. On Saturdays it ran express from Coney Island to 57 St.

The other West End Service at the time was the TT which ran local from Bay Parkway to Chambers St. via the Nassau Loop Tunnel. Late at nights and on Sundays, the TT was the 36 St.-Coney Island West End Shuttle.

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(142102)

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Re: NYC T Line

Posted by RonInBayside on Sat Sep 17 19:09:47 2005, in response to Re: NYC T Line, posted by Red Line to Glenmont on Sat Sep 17 18:25:18 2005.

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Thanks for posting that. There's only a very few letters NYC Transit has not used at one time or another.

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(142111)

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Re: NYC T Line

Posted by vengence on Sat Sep 17 19:23:57 2005, in response to Re: NYC T Line, posted by Red Line to Glenmont on Sat Sep 17 18:25:18 2005.

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Your forgetting..the T only ran rush hours..during the 60's.
Even its Saturday service was replaced by TT trains towards the end.

The T train ran from Ditmars Blvd to Coney Island..

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(142132)

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Re: NYC T Line

Posted by BusRider on Sat Sep 17 19:59:25 2005, in response to Re: NYC T Line, posted by vengence on Sat Sep 17 19:23:57 2005.

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What is the T now a mix of W and D trains and thanks everyone.

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(142134)

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Re: NYC T Line

Posted by vengence on Sat Sep 17 20:04:17 2005, in response to Re: NYC T Line, posted by BusRider on Sat Sep 17 19:59:25 2005.

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Well..the M train is the new TT rush hour service....and the present D train is the old B with a few exceptions.

Currently..there is no direct service from the West End to the Broadway line.

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Re: NYC T Line

Posted by BusRider on Sat Sep 17 20:08:29 2005, in response to Re: NYC T Line, posted by vengence on Sat Sep 17 20:04:17 2005.

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oh ok thanks alot.

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Re: NYC T Line

Posted by RedbirdR33 on Sat Sep 17 23:55:21 2005, in response to NYC T Line, posted by BusRider on Sat Sep 17 17:58:35 2005.

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Hi Bus Rider: The letters "T" and "TT" were first used in 1960 with
the delivery of the R-27's.. Respectively they replaced the old BMT designations of #3 West End Express and #3 West End Local.

Simply stated the "T" was the Broadway-West End Express and it ran during "extended" rush hours on weekedays.(6AM-10AM and 4PM-8PM)There were three main services:
1) Astoria-Coney Island
2) Astoria-Bay Parkway
3) Queensboro Plaza-Coney Island
These services operated via the 60 Street Tunnel and the Manhattan Bridge (north side tracks). They ran express between 57 Street and Dekalb Avenue and between Pacific Street and 36 Street. During the main portion of the rush hour they also bypassed Dekalb Avenue.

The "T" also ran on Saturdays between 57 Street and Coney Island from 6 AM-8PM, running express between 57 Street and Deklab Avenue and between Pacific Street and 36 Street.

The opening of the Chrystie Street Subway saw the "T" replaced by the "B". The last day of "T" service was Saturday, November 25, 1967.

Larry, RedbirdR33

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(142314)

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Re: NYC T Line

Posted by Red Line to Glenmont on Sun Sep 18 01:54:22 2005, in response to Re: NYC T Line, posted by RonInBayside on Sat Sep 17 19:09:47 2005.

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They will never use...

I, because it looks like a 1;
O, because it looks like of 0;
P, because it sounds bad;
X, because it sounds like it's pornographic.

U and Y are the only ones that could have been used but have never been used.

"Y, because we like U: M-O-U-S-EEEEEEEEEEE."

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(142315)

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Re: NYC T Line

Posted by Red Line to Glenmont on Sun Sep 18 01:56:02 2005, in response to Re: NYC T Line, posted by vengence on Sat Sep 17 19:23:57 2005.

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Like I said, the T ran weekdays from Astoria (Ditmars Blvd.) to Coney Island. On Saturday, it only ran to 57 St. But I now remember that it only ran rush hours (i.e., 6-10 AM, 3-8 PM).

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Re: NYC T Line

Posted by Rail Blue on Sun Sep 18 04:26:12 2005, in response to Re: NYC T Line, posted by Red Line to Glenmont on Sun Sep 18 01:54:22 2005.

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P, because it sounds bad;

IINM, it's come up here before that they were intending on using the letter P (or even PP), but it was relegated to SS before it made it to the cars:

J - 14 Jamaica
K - 15 Broadway (Brooklyn)
L - 16 Canarsie
M - 10 Myrtle Chambers
MJ - 11 Myrtle
N - 4 Sea Beach
P - probably 5 Culver
Q - 1 Brighton
R - 2 4th Avenue
S - 7 Franklin
T - 3 West End
(defunct) - 6 3rd Avenue
(defunct) - 8 Astoria Shuttle
(defunct) - 9 Flushing Shuttle
(defunct) - 12 Lexington
(defunct) - 13 Fulton

X, because it sounds like it's pornographic.

I recall reading somewhere that one class of cars (R38?) show "X" on the front when the side signs show "Not in Service".

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Re: NYC T Line

Posted by Rail Blue on Sun Sep 18 04:27:48 2005, in response to Re: NYC T Line, posted by BusRider on Sat Sep 17 19:59:25 2005.

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And before 2/22, the W was (controversially) used for a route identical to the real T.

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(142342)

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Re: NYC T Line

Posted by BMTLines on Sun Sep 18 08:15:38 2005, in response to Re: NYC T Line, posted by Rail Blue on Sun Sep 18 04:27:48 2005.

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And before 2/22, the W was (controversially) used for a route identical to the real T.

One difference was that the "T" skipped 49th street even when it ran to Astoria. Why couldn't they do that with the "W"?

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(142343)

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Re: NYC T Line

Posted by AlM on Sun Sep 18 08:18:00 2005, in response to Re: NYC T Line, posted by Red Line to Glenmont on Sun Sep 18 01:54:22 2005.

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"O, because it looks like of 0"

What's wrong with that? There's no 0 line to confuse it with.




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(142347)

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Re: NYC T Line

Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Sep 18 08:56:31 2005, in response to Re: NYC T Line, posted by Rail Blue on Sun Sep 18 04:26:12 2005.

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The J corresponds to the old 15 while K was the old 14.

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(142349)

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Re: NYC T Line

Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Sep 18 08:59:29 2005, in response to Re: NYC T Line, posted by Red Line to Glenmont on Sun Sep 18 01:56:02 2005.

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That's right. The T didn't operate during middays and TT trains took up the slack, running all the way to Coney Island.

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(142354)

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Re: NYC T Line

Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Sep 18 09:01:58 2005, in response to Re: NYC T Line, posted by RedbirdR33 on Sat Sep 17 23:55:21 2005.

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How many West End trains actually terminated at Queensboro Plaza? They must have deadheaded up the Astoria line after discharging passengers.

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Re: NYC T Line

Posted by Arrow III MU on Sun Sep 18 10:34:40 2005, in response to Re: NYC T Line, posted by Rail Blue on Sun Sep 18 04:26:12 2005.

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R38's and R32's can show an X on the bulkhead.

Professor J

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(142372)

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Re: NYC T Line

Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Sep 18 10:40:20 2005, in response to Re: NYC T Line, posted by Arrow III MU on Sun Sep 18 10:34:40 2005.

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Yes, I believe I have photos of such.

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Re: NYC T Line

Posted by RonInBayside on Sun Sep 18 11:57:45 2005, in response to Re: NYC T Line, posted by Red Line to Glenmont on Sun Sep 18 01:54:22 2005.

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X train could stand for Super eXpress.

O train - as another poster said, there is no zero train now, so I wouldn't think that's a problem.

P train - yeah, OK, I wouldn't be in a hurry to use that letter.

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(142393)

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Re: NYC T Line

Posted by Rail Blue on Sun Sep 18 12:32:27 2005, in response to Re: NYC T Line, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Sep 18 09:01:58 2005.

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How many West End trains actually terminated at Queensboro Plaza? They must have deadheaded up the Astoria line after discharging passengers.

Or relayed on the express track; or, before the BMT half of QBP was demolished, relayed on the relay track.

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(142423)

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Re: NYC T Line

Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Sep 18 13:24:50 2005, in response to Re: NYC T Line, posted by Rail Blue on Sun Sep 18 12:32:27 2005.

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There is a mid-60s photo of a West End train of Triplexes at Queensboro Plaza with a Queensboro Plaza destination sign.

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Re: NYC T Line

Posted by randyo on Sun Sep 18 16:36:52 2005, in response to Re: NYC T Line, posted by Rail Blue on Sun Sep 18 12:32:27 2005.

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Towards the end of the AM rush, the West End or "T" trains laid up on the middle track north of QBPl. At the time there was no signal control on the middle track between Ast and QBP so the Brighton Locals which ran to Ast pre Chrystie as either "QT"s or "QB's laid up and were put in from Astoria and the West End trains were laid up and put in at QBPl. The last 3 West End expresses each night Mon - Sat ran via the tunnel Stl to Canal St, discharged passengers and laid up to City Hall Yd (lower level). On Mon - Fri AMs these 3 trains operated local from Canal St to Ast carrying "TT" signs and operated S/B from Ast as "T" expresses. On Sat AMs, these 3 trains operated S/B from City Hall to Stl via tunnel as "TT"s where the entered "T" West End Express service to 57 St. On Sat PM, these same 3 trains again laid up at Canal St and were then in position to start the regular daily service pattern Mon AM. A slight correction on an earlier poster's info, the BMT numbers were as follows: 1 - Brighton, 2 - 4 Av, 3 - West End, 4 - Sea Beach, 5 - Culver, 6 - 5 Av/Bay Ridge, 7 - Franklin, 8 - Astoria Shuttle, 9 - Flushing Shuttle, 10 - Myrtle/Chambers, 11 - Myrtle Elevated, 12 - Lexington Av, 13 - Fulton, 14 - Bway Bkln, 15, Jamaica, 16 - 14 St. There have been some reports that the 14 St/Fulton St service was assigned a #17 but it seems no one has ever seen that number used and the 14/Fulton service normally carried the #13 that the mainline Fulton service used. Only one train on the mainline Fulton El used a number on the route sign and that was the Green Hornet and although the D types and Multis had and used numbered roll signs, the BMT routes were publicly identified only by their line names until the R-32s with their lettered signs arrived at which time the TA tried to get the public to use the letter system. Although the R-27s and 30s also had lettered roll signs, the TA did not attempt to use letters as the principal means of train ID until the R-32s. Of course, the wooden elevated cars didn't use numbers either. It's also interesting to note that although the Bluebirds arrived after the Multis, they had no provision anywhere for a route number sign. It could be that since the public didn't use route numbers, the BMT decided against retaining them for future use.

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Re: NYC T Line

Posted by rushhoursardine on Sun Sep 18 22:53:55 2005, in response to Re: NYC T Line, posted by RonInBayside on Sun Sep 18 11:57:45 2005.

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NX was in fact the 1967-68 designation of the Sea Beach Super Express. It ran the same route as the N line from 57th Street/7th Avenue, but used the express tracks on the Sea Beach to run express from 59th Street/Fourth Avenue to Stillwell Avenue. It then turned up the Brighton line to terminate at Brighton Beach.

The route was designed at the time to save Coney commuters a very long haul, but was cancelled due to low ridership.

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Re: NYC T Line

Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Mon Sep 19 14:00:06 2005, in response to Re: NYC T Line, posted by rushhoursardine on Sun Sep 18 22:53:55 2005.

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From what I've heard, NX trains crawled between Stillwell Ave. and Brighton Beach. They also had to run in an absolute block because the Sea Beach express tracks were not signalled.

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Re: NYC T Line

Posted by Red Line to Glenmont on Mon Sep 19 14:04:05 2005, in response to Re: NYC T Line, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Mon Sep 19 14:00:06 2005.

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I took the NX southbound once, just for fun, and 3/4 of the people on it got off at 59 St. And it did crawl from Stillwell Aveneu to Brighton Beach; it seemed to take all day to get switched to the Brighton track at Coney Island.

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Re: NYC T Line

Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Mon Sep 19 19:25:41 2005, in response to Re: NYC T Line, posted by Red Line to Glenmont on Mon Sep 19 14:04:05 2005.

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How was the nonstop express run?

I remember seeing the NX depicted on the late 1967 TA map, but never rode on it.

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Re: NYC T Line

Posted by daDouce Man on Mon Sep 19 19:34:16 2005, in response to Re: NYC T Line, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Mon Sep 19 19:25:41 2005.

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The NX would leave 59/4 in Brooklyn and the next stop would be Coney Island. It was a great idea. But the traffic going to Coney Island was mostly dried up by 1967.

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Re: NYC T Line

Posted by RedbirdR33 on Mon Sep 19 20:50:25 2005, in response to Re: NYC T Line, posted by randyo on Sun Sep 18 16:36:52 2005.

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The last 3 West End expresses each night Mon - Sat ran via the tunnel Stl to Canal St, discharged passengers and laid up to City Hall

These trains were resigned as "TT West End Locals" when they arrived at Coney Island. They then ran to Canal Street-Broadway via tunnel as you said. They ran express on 4 Avenue even though they carried
local signs.

A number of young railfans , including myself would usually hang out at Coney Island on Friday nights and the conductors would let us resign the trains.

Larry, RedbirdR33

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Re: NYC T Line

Posted by RedbirdR33 on Mon Sep 19 20:57:46 2005, in response to Re: NYC T Line, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Sep 18 09:01:58 2005.

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How many West End trains actually terminated at Queensboro Plaza? They must have deadheaded up the Astoria line after discharging passengers.

Steve: The Queensboro Plaza trains laid up on the center track of the Astoria Line. It was strictly a put-in/pull-out service.

Schedule was as follows:M-F
Lv Queensboro Plaza for Coney Island 550-626AM, 310-346PM, 452 and 516PM.

Lv COney Island for Queensboro Plaza: 847-927AM, 645-705PM.

Larry, RedbirdR33


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Re: NYC T Line

Posted by Red Line to Glenmont on Mon Sep 19 23:26:38 2005, in response to Re: NYC T Line, posted by daDouce Man on Mon Sep 19 19:34:16 2005.

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Its real purpose was to provide more service to W. 8, Ocean Parkway, and Brighton Beach (and I guess Sheepshead Bay, too), not to provide express service to Coney Island. Since the only Broadway train to the Brighton Line was a Bridge local, this would provide an express service to the southernmost section. Every third N was replaced by an NX. It looked good on paper....

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Re: NYC T Line

Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Tue Sep 20 00:27:46 2005, in response to Re: NYC T Line, posted by daDouce Man on Mon Sep 19 19:34:16 2005.

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I guess what I was really curious about was the speed attained during that nonstop run.

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Re: NYC T Line

Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Tue Sep 20 00:28:36 2005, in response to Re: NYC T Line, posted by Red Line to Glenmont on Mon Sep 19 23:26:38 2005.

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...but it turned out to be a logistical nightmare.

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Re: NYC T Line

Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Tue Sep 20 00:46:12 2005, in response to Re: NYC T Line, posted by randyo on Sun Sep 18 16:36:52 2005.

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The R-16s also had BMT number curtains originally. Karl B says people thought the 15 was a new route marking when the R-16s first appeared in 1955. You can't blame them; they had no idea that that number had been assigned to the Jamaica line 30 years before!

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