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| Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight? (1417595) | |
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Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight? |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Nov 27 18:47:03 2016, in response to Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight?, posted by nh153 on Sun Nov 27 18:44:34 2016. There are only 2 local stations on 6th Ave. |
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Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight? |
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Posted by Southern BMT on Sun Nov 27 18:56:58 2016, in response to Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight?, posted by nh153 on Sun Nov 27 18:44:34 2016. Speaking of the (N) & (Q) as Broadway locals...this is only very recent (as of this pick, IIRC).Previously, the (Q) was express in Manhattan overnight. I was wondering why the TA suddenly decided to make this change. |
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Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight? |
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Posted by nh153 on Sun Nov 27 19:16:43 2016, in response to Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight?, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Nov 27 18:47:03 2016. Yes, but if you're standing on a platform at 14 or 23 St. at 3am, it must be annoying to hear the D train speed by. (I say "hear" because there are walls between the express tracks and local tracks, so you probably can't see the D train speed by.)And don't forget, there are also nine local stations on Central Park West/Douglass Blvd./St. Nicholas Ave. The D bypasses them too. |
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Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight? |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Nov 27 19:23:34 2016, in response to Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight?, posted by nh153 on Sun Nov 27 19:16:43 2016. For two stops, not worth to merge in the D and F only to split them again. Conversely, I would say it *is* worth to merge/split on CPW, but perhaps late night ridership does not justify it.Also, IIRC the schedule is timed for the D and F to be arriving at roughly the same time to allow for across-the-platform transfers (though it probably rarely works out that way IRL). |
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Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight? |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Nov 27 19:38:04 2016, in response to Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight?, posted by nh153 on Sun Nov 27 19:16:43 2016. I say "hear" because there are walls between the express tracks and local tracks, so you probably can't see the D train speed by.Not just walls. The D is on a lower level. The PATH is roughly on the same level as the F or slightly higher. |
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Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight? |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Sun Nov 27 19:49:53 2016, in response to Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight?, posted by Southern BMT on Sun Nov 27 18:56:58 2016. No, this dates back to December 2014. |
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Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight? |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Sun Nov 27 19:50:27 2016, in response to Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight?, posted by Union Tpke on Sun Nov 27 19:49:53 2016. link |
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Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight? |
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Posted by Michael549 on Sun Nov 27 20:28:36 2016, in response to Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight?, posted by nh153 on Sun Nov 27 18:44:34 2016. Please note two things:1) The existence of the #1 and #2 trains nearby on Broadway from about 96th Street to lower Manhattan which has often over time carried much more riders during the late night hours as compared to the nearby A-train Central Park West and mid-town stations. North of 96th Street (until the #3 was made a full-time service from 148th Street-Times Square) both the #1, #2-Lenox Avenue, and A-train Harlem & Washington Heights segments had service at every 20-minutes. 2) Even prior to the mid-1970's city's fiscal crisis even the mid-night hour AA local trains ran at every 20 minutes with both A and D trains running express. So it is not like something has radically changed on Central Park West over the decades. 3) Each of the "outer borough" lines - #1, #2, #4, #5/M/R-shuttles, #6, #7, G-train, L-train, J-train, Brooklyn/Rockaways A-trains, the alone segments of the D, E, F, N, Q, etc. = all have mid-night hour service at every 20 minutes. At the mid-night hours every body gets to wait a good period of time for a subway train - except along certain Manhattan sections to reduce the time it takes to transfer between trains. The damn near 20-years of the #6 Pelham shuttle with the #4 train as the only train serving the whole east-side of Manhattan was bad enough. Adding in those times when the #4 and #6-shuttle missed their connections was a pure horror show with traveling one had to do between levels on 125th Street! Mike |
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Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight? |
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Posted by Kriston Lewis on Sun Nov 27 21:27:17 2016, in response to Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight?, posted by Southern BMT on Sun Nov 27 18:56:58 2016. They had a look at MetroCard data and found that overnight ridership went up at the Broadway local stations. Switching Q service was a cost-effective way to accommodate this. |
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Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight? |
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Posted by nh153 on Sun Nov 27 21:36:40 2016, in response to Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight?, posted by Michael549 on Sun Nov 27 20:28:36 2016. It's interesting to note that the only 24 hour subway line outside of NYC has 15 minute service. Those lines on the Chicago Transit Authority that run all night (Red and Blue) do it at 15 minute intervals. Of course, that's only a few lines. The rest have no overnight service.Meanwhile, of the other 24 hour lines in the NYC area, PATH runs at 35 minute intervals and the Staten Island Railway at 30 minutes. |
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Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight? |
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Posted by The Silence on Sun Nov 27 23:49:55 2016, in response to Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight?, posted by nh153 on Sun Nov 27 19:16:43 2016. The other side of the wall is the PATH station.The IND express tracks are below the level of the Canarsie line. |
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Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight? |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Nov 28 08:19:32 2016, in response to Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight?, posted by nh153 on Sun Nov 27 19:16:43 2016. I've never been aware of express trains while waiting for a train at 14th or 23rd. |
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Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight? |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Nov 28 09:07:48 2016, in response to Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight?, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Nov 28 08:19:32 2016. I believe you can hear them below you when waiting for an L train. But not when waiting for an F or M at 14th. |
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Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight? |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Nov 28 11:26:48 2016, in response to Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight?, posted by nh153 on Sun Nov 27 18:44:34 2016. THERE ARE NO EXPRESS / LOCAL Tracks on 6th AVENUEOn sixth Avenue you have Bronx tracks and Queens tracks. The Quees tracks happen th have two more stops than the Bronx Tracks which did not originally exist. In days of old 24th Street was terminal for the (F) While the (D) Continued on to Brooklyn... in those days via the Culver Line. LOOK at the 1960s vintage maps... 14th and 23rd streets WERE LISTED AS EXPRESS STOPS. When new tunnel was builded along 6th Avenue, below the IND and the PATH they dispensed with those two stops, after all they were sharing space with the PATH (which was there first). So ditch the idea of exp tracks on 6th. They are BRONX and QUEENS tracks. NOW THEN... Could the (D) move over to the Queens side to pick up those two stops. Yes, they could do that, and do do that when is problems., but no. they will not bother just on the overnights because that would require tower operators. ROAR |
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Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight? |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Nov 28 11:38:49 2016, in response to Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight?, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Nov 28 11:26:48 2016. they will not bother just on the overnights because that would require tower operators.How is it any different than the northbound Q moving over to the Queens track and then back to the 96th Street Manhattan track late nights? 14th/6th gets only one train per 20 minutes late nights, even though it is the junction with the L, which is very busy late nights. Every other line that intersects the L in Manhattan has at least 2 trains per 20 minutes at 14th Street. |
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Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight? |
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Posted by Edwards! on Mon Nov 28 14:44:47 2016, in response to Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight?, posted by nh153 on Sun Nov 27 19:16:43 2016. Sorry.The express tracks are deep level at that location. What you are hearing is the PATH trains at that shared station location. |
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Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight? |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Nov 28 16:01:29 2016, in response to Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight?, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Nov 28 11:26:48 2016. In the early 1960s. the reason that 14 and 23 were listed as express stops is there were no express tracks on 6 Av and all the trains that stopped there were express trains. A similar situation actually exists on the Bkln IRT where trains served by 7 Av trains were shown as lcl stations and trains served by Lex Av trains were the express stations even though both 7 Av and Lex trains were actually expresses. The Fulton IND had its stations similarly marked even though until the CC started to run to Bkln, all services operating along Fulton St were expresses in Manhattan. |
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Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight? |
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Posted by Michael549 on Mon Nov 28 17:10:15 2016, in response to Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight?, posted by AlM on Mon Nov 28 11:38:49 2016. "14th/6th gets only one train per 20 minutes late nights, even though it is the junction with the L, which is very busy late nights."So?? The connection between the L and G-train at Lorimer & Metropolitan Avenues during the midnight hours is one train every 20 minutes for both the L and G trains. The connection between the #2 and the #4 at 149th Street & Grand Concourse during the midnight hours is one train every 20 minutes for both the #2 and the #4 trains. The same situation exists for the #7 and the N-train at Queensborough Plaza - 20 minute waits between trains. The same situation applies for the Broadway Junction - where J-trains, A-trains and L-trains are all running 20 minutes apart. Since the 42nd Street Shuttle no longer runs during the midnight hours - it is a 20 minute wait to go from Times Square To Grand Central Station by the #7 train! Passengers bound for Brooklyn and Queens J-train stations had to endure 20-minute waits between trains for connections to the #4-train, the #6-train, and F-train, and so on - for decades. Each of these places can be pretty busy during the midnight night hours. Mike |
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Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight? |
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Posted by Union Tpke on Mon Nov 28 17:13:32 2016, in response to Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight?, posted by Michael549 on Mon Nov 28 17:10:15 2016. Do you think the headway should be lowered to 15 minutes on some lines? |
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Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight? |
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Posted by Michael549 on Mon Nov 28 17:43:55 2016, in response to Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight?, posted by Union Tpke on Mon Nov 28 17:13:32 2016. "Do you think the headway should be lowered to 15 minutes on some lines?"Sure if during the midnight hours the trains of a given line were packed to the gills, and riders on the platforms could not board the trains, and had to wait for several trains to pass by before being able to physically board the trains. Yes, in that case increase the frequency of the trains. It is simply that such a situation does not exist on the NYC subways during the midnight hours. I'll grant that at particular times or events the trains may be very crowded for brief periods. With the standard 20-minute waits system-wide no area or community is singled out for better service, unless there is "another good reason" political problems are reduced. And no - the extension of the midnight hour R-train to Whitehall Street is not such a special case. Mike |
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Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight? |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Mon Nov 28 18:40:37 2016, in response to Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight?, posted by nh153 on Sun Nov 27 21:36:40 2016. Actually, the two main Philly subway lines (Market-Frankford and Broad Street Line) do run 24/7 even if overnight (Sunday-Thursday) the lines are actually run with buses (Friday and Saturday nights into Saturday and Sunday mornings, the lines do run as trains). |
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Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight? |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Nov 28 18:49:41 2016, in response to Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight?, posted by nh153 on Sun Nov 27 21:36:40 2016. The CTA does not bump their express train to the local tracks when the local goes to sleep at night.What I am thinking is the Red Line does not stop at Wellington and Diversey when the Brown Line does not run. They could switch it to the side tracks and back to the middle without any interference. But they regard them as Red and Brown Line tracks, not Express and Local tracks, no station between 3200N and 2400N get any intermediate service. The parallel and nearby 36-Broadway and 8-Halsted buses also do not run. Not a nice way to service the upscale Lincoln Park neighborhood. |
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Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight? |
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Posted by The Silence on Tue Nov 29 01:22:43 2016, in response to Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight?, posted by Wallyhorse on Mon Nov 28 18:40:37 2016. If they are running buses, that means the trains aren't operating.If the trains aren't operating, then the line is closed. If the line closes, then it's not open 24/7. I've never in my life met anyone who equated an OWL bus to being the train line it was subbing for... |
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Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight? |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Nov 29 16:01:42 2016, in response to Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight?, posted by The Silence on Tue Nov 29 01:22:43 2016. I was actually under the impression that when owl service was restored, it was all 7 days. |
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Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight? |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Nov 29 16:08:04 2016, in response to Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight?, posted by Joe V on Mon Nov 28 18:49:41 2016. If I recall, the switch configuration S/O Armitage doesn’t permit switching to the outside tracks even if CTA wanted to do it. Although I am a fan of CTA, I always felt that the connection from the subway to the el structure at Armitage was done incorrectly and instead of connecting the original lcl and exp tks and bringing the subway tracks into the middle, the subway tracks should have been brought up between the lcl and exp tks in a wye configuration similarly to they way the West End tracks connect to the 4 Av subway at 36 St. The structure had to be modified anyhow, so why not do it in a more efficient manner? |
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Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight? |
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Posted by Bzuck on Tue Nov 29 17:52:42 2016, in response to Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight?, posted by nh153 on Sun Nov 27 18:44:34 2016. From the start of the Christie Street change in November 1967 to July 1968 when the 57th street station opened the D was express on 6th avenue only in rush hours. |
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Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight? |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Nov 29 18:14:33 2016, in response to Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight?, posted by randyo on Tue Nov 29 16:08:04 2016. Judging by this:http://www.chicago-l.org/maps/track/Red-Howard.jpg they should be able to do it, although they can't make Armitage. |
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Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight? |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Nov 30 14:41:12 2016, in response to Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight?, posted by Bzuck on Tue Nov 29 17:52:42 2016. But that was primarily because midday, late PM and Saturday B service from Bkln had to use the exp tks N/O W 4 St to turn. |
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Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight? |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Wed Nov 30 21:16:08 2016, in response to Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight?, posted by randyo on Wed Nov 30 14:41:12 2016. IIRC the express tracks were used for storage on weekends before they opened for 24/7 use. At least I remember seeing a car just poking into 34th St on the uptown side. |
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Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight? |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Dec 1 00:24:20 2016, in response to Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight?, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Wed Nov 30 21:16:08 2016. Even when they opened up for 24/7 service, they were used for storage during cold weather plans. |
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Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight? |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Dec 1 10:56:21 2016, in response to Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight?, posted by randyo on Tue Nov 29 16:01:42 2016. No:It was only restored on Friday and Saturday, largely due to a major increase in traffic (plus for instance in Old City, especially late Friday night buses were getting stuck in heavy traffic there for years) and the fact more people were taking the owl buses. It would be great if they did go back to seven days a week, but I think the memory of the "box cities" that were in several spots in the system during the 1980's and early '90s before they went to owl buses are why they never will do that. |
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Late Night Ridership |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Dec 1 10:59:40 2016, in response to Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight?, posted by Michael549 on Mon Nov 28 17:43:55 2016. The (L) has seen rush-hour levels of ridership in recent years which has been noted in a few places. |
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Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight? |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Thu Dec 1 14:12:52 2016, in response to Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight?, posted by nh153 on Sun Nov 27 21:36:40 2016. The SIR off-peak runs are coordinated with the Ferry... |
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Re: Late Night Ridership |
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Posted by italianstallion on Thu Dec 1 15:49:44 2016, in response to Late Night Ridership, posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Dec 1 10:59:40 2016. And the L has 10-minute headways until 12:30 am, then 12 minutes till 1:30. It only has 20-minute headways from 1:30 to 5:15. |
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Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight? |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Thu Dec 1 19:05:26 2016, in response to Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight?, posted by randyo on Thu Dec 1 00:24:20 2016. So were the Broadway express tracks on weekends. I vividly remember that. |
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Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight? |
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Posted by nh153 on Thu Dec 1 22:02:41 2016, in response to Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight?, posted by Wallyhorse on Thu Dec 1 10:56:21 2016. I didn't know that Philadelphia runs those two lines around the clock on weekends. We should also say London now runs about six or seven lines overnight but again, only on Friday and Saturday.So the only 24 hour/7 day lines are... NYC Subways Staten Island Railway PATH Chicago Transit Authority (Blue & Red Lines) With some London and Philadelphia lines running around the clock on weekends. |
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Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight? |
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Posted by X-Astorian on Fri Dec 2 00:12:47 2016, in response to Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight?, posted by nh153 on Thu Dec 1 22:02:41 2016. "So the only 24 hour/7 day lines are...NYC Subways Staten Island Railway PATH Chicago Transit Authority (Blue & Red Lines)" And PATCO (on 45 minute headways). |
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Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight? |
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Posted by Michael549 on Fri Dec 2 01:02:42 2016, in response to Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight?, posted by X-Astorian on Fri Dec 2 00:12:47 2016. Besides the Staten Island Ferry, there are a number of public transit bus lines that run during the midnight hours, not only on Staten Island but also in the surrounding boroughs and region.Mike |
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Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight? |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Dec 2 08:32:00 2016, in response to Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight?, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Thu Dec 1 19:05:26 2016. I think pretty much all underground express tracks are used for storage when cold weather plans are implemented. |
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Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight? |
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Posted by AlM on Fri Dec 2 09:30:21 2016, in response to Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight?, posted by MainR3664 on Fri Dec 2 08:32:00 2016. I think 4/5 express service continues to run in cold weather. |
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Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight? |
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Posted by nh153 on Sat Dec 3 22:41:35 2016, in response to Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight?, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Nov 28 11:26:48 2016. So you're saying that more personnel would be needed to run the D on the Queens tracks overnight along 6th Avenue, to serve 14 and 23 Street every 10 minutes?The B makes all local stops on weekdays, from Grand to 145. And overnight the A makes all local stops on Central Park West, so the D could do that with no additional staffing. But if it's true that it would require someone extra to work in the tower from Midnight to 6am, just so the D could stop at 14 and 23 Street, I guess that doesn't justify the cost. And if the D can't make those stops, I guess it would be too confusing to have it make local stops on Central Park West overnight? So that's why the D is one of only three overnight express subway lines in NYC (along with the F in Queens and the 3 on Broadway/7th Avenue). |
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Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight? |
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Posted by BrooklynTrain on Sat Dec 3 23:11:00 2016, in response to Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight?, posted by nh153 on Sat Dec 3 22:41:35 2016. If you're at 14th/6th, it's only a 6 minute walk to West 8th/6th for the D. And if you're at 23rd/6th, it's only an 8 to 9 minute walk to 32nd/6th for the D.When FASTTRACK shuts down the 8th Ave or 6th Ave lines to Queens, passengers are expected to walk equal (if not further) distances to either the 6th or 8th Ave line. The switching delays would add considerable time to the D, which unfortunately already has enough delays from being local late nights all the way from DeKalb to 36th (which sometimes adds 10+ minutes to the commute when you consider holding for the N at DeKalb and track gangs on the local track.) |
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Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight? |
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Posted by Michael549 on Sun Dec 4 00:40:32 2016, in response to Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight?, posted by nh153 on Sat Dec 3 22:41:35 2016. "The B makes all local stops on weekdays, from Grand to 145."Sorry, but NO! For a very long time and currently B-trains originating out of 145th Street, 168th Street, or Bedford Park Blvd. operate express on Sixth Avenue - meaning they skip 14th Street and 23rd Street. For a very long time and considering pass route arrangements - B-trains operating out of 57th Street-Sixth Avenue, or the Queensbridge terminal - were often the Sixth Avenue local service - meaning they stopped at 14th Street and 23rd Street on Sixth Avenue. The older subway maps that showed the rush hour service of the B-train as well as the regular service made it a point to show the differences between these two B-train operations. Plus in the 1970's and 1980's the signage above the platforms on the Sixth Avenue line were very, very clear on this point! In addition once the V-train, and later the M-train came into existence on the Sixth Avenue line - B-trains like D-trains always skipped 14th Street and 23rd Street on Sixth Avenue line. It is very easy to check the subway maps from the mid-1960's to the present which supports the points made above. Mike |
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Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight? |
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Posted by zac on Sun Dec 4 04:49:48 2016, in response to Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight?, posted by BrooklynTrain on Sat Dec 3 23:11:00 2016. When I'm on the streets of Manhattan late night looking to get home, the last thing I want to do is walk an extra 5-10 minutes to the next stop. While some people are still coming home from work, that's not why I'm there. |
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Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight? |
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Posted by Michael549 on Sun Dec 4 13:09:51 2016, in response to Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight?, posted by nh153 on Sat Dec 3 22:41:35 2016. "So that's why the D is one of only three overnight express subway lines in NYC (along with the F in Queens and the 3 on Broadway/7th Avenue)."Let's just say that there are times when having an "institutional memory" or "long term memory" available helps to explain some of the happenings on the subways. To take each of these three midnight hour operations and to lump them in to the same "cause and effect" is to not understand the histories of those lines and the needs of their local ridership, and politics. Why is the F-train express at during the mid-night hours? Simple - Politics! From August 1977, F was made a mid-night hours local replacing the G-train which began to end its late night run at Queens Plaza. Since then there were several F-train service changes and now the F-train runs express in Queens the midnight hours via the 63rd Street tunnel. Several forum folks said that the restoration of midnight hour express service was due to local Queens politicians. The number 3 line having a mid-night hour service to and from Times Square started in July 2008. Guess what happened in March 2008? Governor David Paterson took office, the first Black governor of New York State who had his home base in Harlem. For decades the midnight hour service of the #3 Lenox Avenue line - consisted of a short shuttle. From the 1930's that shuttle operated from 96th Street to 145th Street. There were periods where the short-shuttle did not run, and the 145th Street station was closed mid-night hours. And long periods where the short shuttle from from 145th Street to 135th Street, and after 1968 from 148th Street-Lenox Terminal. In 1990 the mid-night hour short shuttle was replaced by buses until 2008, with the mid-night hours closing of those two stations. Harlem residents complained for years about the slow or almost non-existent replacement bus service and the long walks to other subway stations. The other consideration is that the D-train carries a great deal of riders even during the midnight hours. The #3 train shuttle allows Harlem bound riders direct access to a major transfer station. Some times it is good to take a look up from the subway map, to look at the people using the transit services. Mike |
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Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight? |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Dec 4 17:48:32 2016, in response to Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight?, posted by Michael549 on Sun Dec 4 13:09:51 2016. As long as you mentioned the midnight 3 service, I don’t understand why the 3 doesn’t terminate at the center platform at 34/7 rather than T/Sq. it wouldn’t add significantly more time to each trip and with the T/O being able to change ends by walking the platform instead of through the train, there probably wouldn’t be any actual increase in functional operating time at all. If that were done, Lenox passengers coming from Penn Station would be able to get a direct ride instead of having to change at T/Sq from a 1 or a 2. Trains could “stub end” through the middle tk at 34 the way the Gs do at Court Sq. |
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Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight? |
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Posted by Michael549 on Sun Dec 4 18:58:10 2016, in response to Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight?, posted by randyo on Sun Dec 4 17:48:32 2016. I agree that using the 34th Street-Penn Station center platform as the terminal for the #3 mid-night hour long shuttle would be useful, and would be sort of like when the #4 and #5 trains terminated at Atlantic Avenue in the 1980's.I say at the out-set that the subways are: "Not My Railroad!" (Smile) There are plenty of things that would seem "right", "logical", or the "better thing to do". We debate that kind of stuff all of the time. (Yeah!) Sometimes why the MTA either does or does not do something we might be able to figure out or not. At the end of the day, it is the MTA's railroad. Not having the #3 midnight hour long shuttle not terminate at 34th Street could be due to: a) limiting passenger confusion at 34th Street, b) not really "needing" to so to terminate those #3 trains there, etc. Any number of reasons - but at least an effective transfer station at 42nd Street-Times Square is the last stop. Any number of reasons - including the creation of the bare minimum long shuttle. In any case is was interesting to watch the midnight #3 shuttle in operation at 135th Street-Lenox Avenue, and its usage of the middle track there. Mike |
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Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight? |
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Posted by Snarf368 on Sun Dec 4 19:11:35 2016, in response to Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight?, posted by Michael549 on Sun Dec 4 18:58:10 2016. Could be to keep the center platform clear during overnight hours for any number of reasons from cleaning to security or to reduce confusion. |
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Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight? |
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Posted by Michael549 on Mon Dec 5 11:47:40 2016, in response to Re: Why is the D an Express in Manhattan Overnight?, posted by Snarf368 on Sun Dec 4 19:11:35 2016. "Could be to keep the center platform clear during overnight hours for any number of reasons from cleaning to security or to reduce confusion."Certainly a possible reason. It is certainly much better that the midnight hours #3 has its current pattern rather the hodge-podge that existed before. Mike |
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