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PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train |
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Posted by chuchubob on Sat Jul 30 08:43:45 2016 Monday July 25B Train at Union Station  Festivities at Westminster   Layup track at Westminster   RTD commuter rail yard and shop, photographed from the outbound B Train     B Train at Union Station with B Train ad wrap   
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Re: PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sat Jul 30 09:08:19 2016, in response to PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train, posted by chuchubob on Sat Jul 30 08:43:45 2016. I wonder if those B trains will still run nonstop once the G line opens this fall. |
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Re: PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train |
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Posted by TransitChuckG on Sat Jul 30 09:12:11 2016, in response to Re: PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sat Jul 30 09:08:19 2016. Nice photos. In Philly , we won't see our Hyundai-Rotems back until around Xmas, 2016 |
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train |
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Posted by chud1 on Sat Jul 30 12:11:34 2016, in response to PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train, posted by chuchubob on Sat Jul 30 08:43:45 2016. 5 drooling stars out of 5 drooling stars for these pictures.chud1. :)..... |
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Re: PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train |
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Posted by salaamallah@hotmail.com on Sat Jul 30 14:16:17 2016, in response to PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train, posted by chuchubob on Sat Jul 30 08:43:45 2016. very nice photos |
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Re: PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Jul 30 18:05:41 2016, in response to Re: PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train, posted by TransitChuckG on Sat Jul 30 09:12:11 2016. I'm sure Denver appreciates the sacrifice SEPTA made so that their version would have the bugs worked out :).Just rode RTD today (free rides until 10PM!), I gotta say they do 90% of their operation better than SEPTA (not always SEPTA's fault). A few things I noticed: 1. All high platform, 95% dedicated ROW so freight cannot interfere. 2. Trains (on the A line) run every 15 minutes, so it seems no one bothers to look at a schedule, they just show up and wait like we would a subway 3. Same fare system as buses and light rail, so a day pass purchase on a bus is good for the commuter rail. My understanding is the $5.20 day pass is good for anywhere except express buses and the airport station. 4. OPTO (don't know how they managed to pull that off) 5. All cars open all the time (whether the train is 2 or 4 cars) 6. One stop is IN a freight yard. Purely a railfan perk but a nice one. 7. 2x2 seating in the middle section of the car. End section is 3x2 as you would expect. However another interesting choice in arrangement, all end section seats face the A end of the car. This means there are significantly more forward facing seats in the 1st and 3rd car of the train, and significantly fewer in the 2nd and 4th. 8. As a Starwood hotel frequent traveler, I appreciate that the airport station is basically in the Westin hotel lobby. A few lucky rooms are directly over the trackway. Because the Westin maintains the station bathroom, it is immaculate. 9. At Denver Union Station, the tracks are arranged interestingly: -Tracks 1, 2, and 7 are full length, high platform electrified -Tracks 3, 6, and 8 are 2-4 cars long, high platform electrified -Tracks 4 & 5 are extremely long, low platform unelectrified. There is a baggage platform between them. These tracks are essentially for the California Zephyr, and any other Amtrak service that might come by someday. The Zepher needs to wye into the station, as it is a stub end terminal. My two BIG complaints: 1. *Intentionally blocking all hope of any RFW* Their lines don't even go underground, no reason not to have a cab door like the M8 or Silverliner IV.... ah well. 2. *Full car ad wraps*. Not only that, they're on all cars of the train. However the system is so cheap, if it helps pay the bills I'm cool with that... |
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Re: PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train |
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Posted by chuchubob on Sat Jul 30 19:10:15 2016, in response to Re: PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Jul 30 18:05:41 2016. 6. One stop is IN a freight yard. Purely a railfan perk but a nice one.That's 38th & Blake. I took these photos there on Monday.         
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Re: PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train |
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Posted by WillD on Sat Jul 30 21:07:23 2016, in response to Re: PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Jul 30 18:05:41 2016. 1. All high platform, 95% dedicated ROW so freight cannot interfere.Which causes one to wonder why they bothered with FRA compatible EMUs and all the problems they create. The line likely could have been fully double tracked and operated on a quicker schedule if they'd gone with cheaper, faster accelerating UIC EMUs. Unfortunately the Eagle P3 program resulted in them being locked in to Rotem's solution. 2. Trains (on the A line) run every 15 minutes, so it seems no one bothers to look at a schedule, they just show up and wait like we would a subway That is really nice. High frequency transit goes a long way toward building ridership, particularly during off-peak periods when it can be most affordably accommodated. Of course that's doable because of OPTO and their POP fare collection system. It helps that RTD has extensive experience with (admittedly terrible) LRVs and wasn't locked into union agreements to overstaff their trains. They probably use fewer personnel to staff trains every 15 minutes than most other commuter rail lines use to staff trains on an hourly basis. 3. Same fare system as buses and light rail, so a day pass purchase on a bus is good for the commuter rail. That's probably a side effect of their DBOMF approach to the project. Chances are that like the Riverline and other DBOMs the actual fare revenue provides a small portion of the operation of the line. Most of the O&M cost comes in contracted amounts which are put up by the DBOM consortium at the beginning of the project and financed by the transit agency throughout the length of the DBOM contract. In this case I believe RTD wanted both Rotem's consortium and Siemens' consortium to put up some amount of their own financing to get the project built. I'd have to go back and find the documents, but I think Siemens was favored to win based on RTD's experience with their LRVs. Rotem's consortium largely won on the merits of their financing. 7. 2x2 seating in the middle section of the car. End section is 3x2 as you would expect. That's a feature of the Silverliner Vs. It was requested by DVARP. |
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Re: PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Jul 31 08:36:35 2016, in response to Re: PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train, posted by WillD on Sat Jul 30 21:07:23 2016. There are four fare zones. What used to be called, "Regional" is now called, "Airport."I would have been out and about yesterday had it not been for being on call. |
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Re: PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Jul 31 08:37:33 2016, in response to Re: PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Jul 30 18:05:41 2016. Our SD-160 LRVs also have wraparound ads. |
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Re: PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Jul 31 08:39:39 2016, in response to Re: PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sat Jul 30 09:08:19 2016. Both bypassed stations - 41st Ave. and Pecos Junction - aren't finished yet. And they both have an island platform. All stops along the A line have side platforms, as do several stations further down the G line. |
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Re: PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Jul 31 08:47:33 2016, in response to Re: PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sat Jul 30 18:05:41 2016. The tracks and platforms at Union Station are staggered.Track 1 and its platform extend along the entire length of Train Hall. An 8-car A train could easily platform along its length (Ditto for the DIA station platform). Track 2 extends all the way across Train Hall, but its platform beings halfway through - right where the platform for Track 3 ends. Track 3 ends at bumper posts at that point. Tracks 4 and 5 are used by Amtrak. Track 6 is a carbon copy of Track 3. Track 7 is a carbon copy of Track 2. Track 8 and its platform extend roughly 3/4 of the way through Train Hall. A trains use Tracks 1 and 2 while B trains use Track 8. G trains will most likely use Tracks 6, 7 or 8 while N trains, once that line opens, will most likely use Track 3. |
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Re: PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train |
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Posted by chud1 on Sun Jul 31 09:13:46 2016, in response to Re: PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train, posted by chuchubob on Sat Jul 30 19:10:15 2016. 5 drooling stars out of 5 drooling stars for these pictures.chud1. :)..... |
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Re: PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Sun Jul 31 11:54:15 2016, in response to Re: PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train, posted by WillD on Sat Jul 30 21:07:23 2016. Ideally the Amtrak LD trains would be able to use new the flyover bypassing the UP/BNSF freight yard on the western approach.I wonder why Denver didn't buy the MNRR M6 fleet. With an AC propulsion upgrade they could have been had for a fraction of the price as the SL-V's. |
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Re: PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Sun Jul 31 11:56:18 2016, in response to PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train, posted by chuchubob on Sat Jul 30 08:43:45 2016. WTF is with the 79mph thing? The line is PTC/CSS equipped which means the less than 80mph limit doesn't apply. |
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Re: PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Jul 31 12:00:30 2016, in response to Re: PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train, posted by Jersey Mike on Sun Jul 31 11:56:18 2016. Denver's commuter railroads are classified as Class 4 railroads; hence the 79 mph speed limit. I have no doubt those trains can do more than 80.Our LRVs can do 65 even though the speed limit is 55. I was on a s/b C train a few months ago and the T/O was goosing it all the way down the South west Corridor. I mean, he was holding 65 mph! |
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Re: PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Jul 31 12:43:36 2016, in response to Re: PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train, posted by chuchubob on Sat Jul 30 19:10:15 2016. Awesome shots! |
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Re: PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Jul 31 12:55:19 2016, in response to Re: PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train, posted by Jersey Mike on Sun Jul 31 11:54:15 2016. That is a good question... maybe they didn't want secondhand MUs (even if they were relatively new). The M6 also would have had a RFW. Adding an electronic bell shouldn't have been too costly (for whatever reason they wanted literal bells and whistles).I was also annoyed that they didn't go with the M8s since they were buying new high platform MUs. Those would have worked practically off the shelf, just nix the third rail gear and restrooms. |
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Re: PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Jul 31 13:03:04 2016, in response to Re: PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train, posted by WillD on Sat Jul 30 21:07:23 2016. Which causes one to wonder why they bothered with FRA compatible EMUs and all the problems they create. The line likely could have been fully double tracked and operated on a quicker schedule if they'd gone with cheaper, faster accelerating UIC EMUs. Unfortunately the Eagle P3 program resulted in them being locked in to Rotem's solution.The FRA EMUs provide flexibility - they can run into Union Station, and the outer fringes of future routes could be shared with the freight lines if they don't need half hourly peak service. There also was mention of running diesel service past Boulder on the B route if they ever get that far. The single track portions almost all have double track provisions. There is one bridge which does not, but they could just build another one right next to it if they really wanted to; there is space on the ground for more pylons. The single track portion of the new Westminster line even has the second track in place, just no wires or platform yet. I also like that they have locked themselves into increased frequency to address capacity issues for the new B and G lines - the platforms are only 2 1/2 cars long. |
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Re: PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train |
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Posted by nasadowsk on Sun Jul 31 14:06:03 2016, in response to Re: PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train, posted by Jersey Mike on Sun Jul 31 11:56:18 2016. Draw a box.Write "US transit agency thinking" in it. |
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Re: PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train |
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Posted by nasadowsk on Sun Jul 31 14:16:00 2016, in response to Re: PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train, posted by WillD on Sat Jul 30 21:07:23 2016. Supposedly, before the decision to get retread antique equipment was made, the FLIRT was on the short list for consideration:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tWD4MhX8cSc That kind of performance, on a line that allows it, would net you a system that would blow the doors off of driving, pretty much all the time. Which means, people use the system for whatever, as opposed to it being a last resort to commuting, like pretty much every commuter rail system in the US is right now. I seem to recall that Stadler's been getting alternate complicance for their GTWs and the diesel FLIRT variant that the DFW area uses, thus there's really zero reason why transit agencies can't use modern equipment in the US. The 2x2 seating was a DVARP thing. Given the weight of the average Pennsylvanian these days, even 2x2 is pretty tight. Might also explain SEPTA's truck issues... |
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Re: PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train |
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Posted by nasadowsk on Sun Jul 31 14:19:31 2016, in response to Re: PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Jul 31 13:03:04 2016. The FRA EMUs provide flexibility - they can run into Union Station, and the outer fringes of future routes could be shared with the freight lines if they don't need half hourly peak service.Why even bother blowing hundreds of millions for a rail line if you're not going to utilize it? If they don't need 1/2 hourly peak service, then they probably don't need rail service to begin with. Run a bus and see if you attract anything beyond background noise. |
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Re: PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train |
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Posted by nasadowsk on Sun Jul 31 14:23:39 2016, in response to Re: PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Jul 31 12:55:19 2016. I was also annoyed that they didn't go with the M8s since they were buying new high platform MUs. Those would have worked practically off the shelf, just nix the third rail gear and restrooms.Why buy a 155,000 lb pig when you can buy a 130,000 lb pig? Sure you're getting bacon either way, but one's gonna be cheaper in the long run. Of course, long term, it'd be better to base your rail system around attitudes that don't expect passenger cars that weigh as much as locomotives, but that's apparently too advanced a notion for most US transit agencies these days. (Of course, back in the 50's, Budd built EMUs that weighed less than unpowered coaches of the day. The Silverliner IIs are actually the same fucking body as the Pioneer IIIs, but they ended up being 10,000 lbs heavier because GE couldn't build as light a propulsion system as Westinghouse could. By that time, Philly area rail services were sucking the public's tit, so nobody cared anymore anyway) |
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Re: PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train |
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Posted by Terrapin Station on Sun Jul 31 15:48:53 2016, in response to PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train, posted by chuchubob on Sat Jul 30 08:43:45 2016. Cool! |
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Re: PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Jul 31 19:13:31 2016, in response to Re: PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Jul 31 13:03:04 2016. With the exception of the bridge over Airport Blvd. and I-70, the other two single-track portions of the A line have provision for a second track and the three bridges over E-470, Tower Road and a dry gulch have space for a second track. |
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Re: PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Sun Jul 31 19:49:51 2016, in response to Re: PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sun Jul 31 12:00:30 2016. Class 4 is good for 80, not 79. The 79 thing is for cab signaling/ATS. |
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Re: PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Sun Jul 31 19:53:00 2016, in response to Re: PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train, posted by nasadowsk on Sun Jul 31 14:23:39 2016. I believe you have admitted that the P-III transformers and propulsion system were indeed too lightly built. |
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Re: PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train |
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Posted by Jersey Mike on Sun Jul 31 19:53:42 2016, in response to Re: PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train, posted by nasadowsk on Sun Jul 31 14:19:31 2016. Buses are for the poor and disabled. At that point just expand a freeway. |
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Re: PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train |
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Posted by nasadowsk on Sun Jul 31 20:05:09 2016, in response to Re: PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train, posted by Jersey Mike on Sun Jul 31 19:53:00 2016. Yeah, but bulking up the transformer and propulsion shouldn't have added THAT much weight. The bigger issue was ignitrons blew out pretty regularly, especially the ones designed for welding service, not rail use. The British had the same issues and ended up just going full solid state.GE's system was better on paper, but the implementation was a bit sucky and the traction motor design was a step backwards (though maybe Budd/Westinghouse couldn't resolve the gearbox issues on the PIII cars?) The three tier rectifier setup looks great on paper, but ex NJT folks tell me the power factor was awful, and the implementation was typical GE overcomplexity. I have the weight breakdowns somewhere in my pile of stuff. It's quite intersting where the gains were from, because most of it isn't what you'd expect. |
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Re: PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train |
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Posted by WillD on Sun Jul 31 23:18:54 2016, in response to Re: PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Sun Jul 31 13:03:04 2016. The FRA EMUs provide flexibility - they can run into Union Station, and the outer fringes of future routes could be shared with the freight lines if they don't need half hourly peak service.No they do not. The FRA's allowances for alternate compliance would have readily allowed UIC EMUs to operate into Union Station right alongside Amtrak and even freight trains. The single track portions almost all have double track provisions. There is one bridge which does not, but they could just build another one right next to it if they really wanted to; there is space on the ground for more pylons. The single track portion of the new Westminster line even has the second track in place, just no wires or platform yet. Provisions which effectively cannot be built for the next 30 or so years. That's kind of the downside to a DBOM. Unless the state coughs up a very large amount of money, they're stuck with the system as built. That's why it was so important to get it right from the beginning and so distressing to see them cut corners from the rolling stock for the sake of holding on to obsolete FRA designs. also like that they have locked themselves into increased frequency to address capacity issues for the new B and G lines - the platforms are only 2 1/2 cars long. Or they'll be stuck with crowded, slow trains and an extremely expensive rebuild to accommodate longer trains. Look to Vancouver and Rotem's cheaping out on the Canada Line platforms. |
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Re: PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Mon Aug 1 00:54:34 2016, in response to Re: PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train, posted by nasadowsk on Sun Jul 31 14:19:31 2016. For that matter you just justified the permanent bustitution of all LIRR east end service, the West Hempstead line, and all MNRR shuttle branches. The Harlem line was extended to Wassaic, and the Port Jervis line was repaired, for less frequent service than half hourly.See, trains have this remarkable feature where they make more stops than just the fringes. The train can serve the new stops, as well as the existing stops (as an extension of an existing run). Plus RTD is OPTO, meaning if you have to run an express bus to each potential new stop, one train is already saving them in manpower costs. |
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Re: PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Mon Aug 1 02:22:02 2016, in response to Re: PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train, posted by Jersey Mike on Sun Jul 31 19:53:42 2016. The bus versus driving:1. Costs more 2. Have to deal with other people 3. Have to stop for other people 4. Get stuck in the same traffic anyway The bus is a trick; it is spending additional money so that people other than you can have a slightly better commute in their cars. The only reason to take a bus is if you have to pay for parking, and the daily parking costs more than the round trip bus fare, or if there are bus lanes. Only morons and the poor take the bus regularly if there are no bus lanes and their employer provides free parking. |
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Re: PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Mon Aug 1 08:21:10 2016, in response to PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train, posted by chuchubob on Sat Jul 30 08:43:45 2016. NICE!! I wish them the best of luck! A brand-new, all-electric commuter railroad. I hope it has a better fate than the NYWB. |
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Re: PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Mon Aug 1 08:22:15 2016, in response to Re: PHOTOS: first day of Denver RTD B Train, posted by chuchubob on Sat Jul 30 19:10:15 2016. Great photos. Thank you. |
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