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coldest stations to be at this heatwave |
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Posted by caine515 on Sat Jul 23 11:19:32 2016 Coldest platform to be during this weekend heat are the following:42-Grand Central(the only station with Air conditioning) 4,5,6 line. Coney Island-Stillwell Avenue(sit in one of the trains parked) Q,F,N,D. Brighton Beach-cooler by ocean. just a opinion |
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Re: coldest stations to be at this heatwave |
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Posted by Bill Newkirk on Sat Jul 23 11:30:23 2016, in response to coldest stations to be at this heatwave, posted by caine515 on Sat Jul 23 11:19:32 2016. 42-Grand Central(the only station with Air conditioning) 4,5,6 line.Not really air conditioning, but water cooled from what I understand. Bill Newkirk |
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Re: coldest stations to be at this heatwave |
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Posted by northshore on Sat Jul 23 12:47:48 2016, in response to coldest stations to be at this heatwave, posted by caine515 on Sat Jul 23 11:19:32 2016. Any station in the Rockaways |
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Re: coldest stations to be at this heatwave |
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Posted by Allan on Sat Jul 23 14:00:20 2016, in response to Re: coldest stations to be at this heatwave, posted by Bill Newkirk on Sat Jul 23 11:30:23 2016. It is water-cooled or more specifically - "Air-Cooled"It is only effective if you are standing under one of the fan units. |
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Re: coldest stations to be at this heatwave |
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Posted by Allan on Sat Jul 23 14:02:29 2016, in response to coldest stations to be at this heatwave, posted by caine515 on Sat Jul 23 11:19:32 2016. The Fulton Center is air-conditioned even if the platforms are not."Coney Island-Stillwell Avenue(sit in one of the trains parked) Q,F,N,D." This would apply to any terminal station (but what do you do if there are no trains in the station - you sweat). |
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Re: coldest stations to be at this heatwave |
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Posted by Steamdriven on Sat Jul 23 14:04:19 2016, in response to Re: coldest stations to be at this heatwave, posted by northshore on Sat Jul 23 12:47:48 2016. It's a touch less hot at this terminal:It's hotter in New York. |
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Re: coldest stations to be at this heatwave |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Jul 23 14:13:35 2016, in response to Re: coldest stations to be at this heatwave, posted by Allan on Sat Jul 23 14:00:20 2016. Out west, they call them swamp coolers. Ideal for dry climates like Utah and Arizona. |
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Re: coldest stations to be at this heatwave |
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Posted by Bill Newkirk on Sat Jul 23 20:40:01 2016, in response to Re: coldest stations to be at this heatwave, posted by Allan on Sat Jul 23 14:00:20 2016. It is water-cooled or more specifically - "Air-Cooled"It is only effective if you are standing under one of the fan units. When this station introduced this method of station cooling, I remember the TA said that the station was water cooled and had something to do with GCT upstairs. Don't know exactly how this works, but all I know is that compressors, evaporators and freon supposedly are not used. Bill Newkirk |
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Re: coldest stations to be at this heatwave |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Jul 24 05:31:06 2016, in response to Re: coldest stations to be at this heatwave, posted by Bill Newkirk on Sat Jul 23 20:40:01 2016. Water cooling is just like what you do with a car's engine. You use water instead of freon. Presumably there is cold water running through pipes in the platform ceiling, and fans blow air over the cold water onto the platform. The only thing that's unclear is how they re-cool the water that has been warmed up after it has passed through the platform area.Link. |
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Re: coldest stations to be at this heatwave |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Sun Jul 24 09:13:11 2016, in response to Re: coldest stations to be at this heatwave, posted by Bill Newkirk on Sat Jul 23 11:30:23 2016. Those coolers were introduced at Grand Central because the station was usually so hot. So I strongly doubt they would make it anything like the coolest.The coolest station is probably one deep underground, since it will be insulated from temperatures at the surface. 5th Ave.-53rd St maybe, or Whitehall St. Just guessing. But the trains will certainly be cooler than any stations, since they are air-conditioned. |
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Re: coldest stations to be at this heatwave |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Jul 24 09:16:35 2016, in response to Re: coldest stations to be at this heatwave, posted by Dyre Dan on Sun Jul 24 09:13:11 2016. The coolest station is probably one deep underground, since it will be insulated from temperatures at the surface.The hot trains introduce heat into the stations which then can't really escape easily. |
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Re: coldest stations to be at this heatwave |
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Posted by Steamdriven on Sun Jul 24 10:52:39 2016, in response to Re: coldest stations to be at this heatwave, posted by AlM on Sun Jul 24 09:16:35 2016. All the power that goes into the trains ends up as heat outside of them. With the constant braking/accelerating, that's a lotta power. Just the axle motors pull 200-400 KW per car, or at least 2 million watts per train, and that figure is at only 300hp per car.If the braking energy were put back into the power system instead of being dumped as heat, the stations & tunnels would be a lot less miserable. |
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Re: coldest stations to be at this heatwave |
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Posted by heypaul on Sun Jul 24 11:21:58 2016, in response to Re: coldest stations to be at this heatwave, posted by Steamdriven on Sun Jul 24 10:52:39 2016. The current energy regeneration system on the NTT is flawed. Regenerated energy is only useful to other trains in the same block of track. If there is no other train in the block, the energy is wasted.SEPTA has been working with Viridity Energy to expand a system where batteries capture the braking energy and either return it to accelerating trains or sell it on the electrical grid. Regeneration |
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Re: coldest stations to be at this heatwave |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Jul 24 11:24:52 2016, in response to Re: coldest stations to be at this heatwave, posted by heypaul on Sun Jul 24 11:21:58 2016. The current energy regeneration system on the NTT is flawed. Regenerated energy is only useful to other trains in the same block of track. If there is no other train in the block, the energy is wasted.That makes it sound more like a flaw (or difficult to surmount defect - there might be good reasons for it) in the grid rather than a flaw in the train. Don't some trains have flywheels (which of course are a form of battery)? Not sure how much power advantage they provide. |
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Re: coldest stations to be at this heatwave |
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Posted by heypaul on Sun Jul 24 11:54:54 2016, in response to Re: coldest stations to be at this heatwave, posted by AlM on Sun Jul 24 11:24:52 2016. Back in 1974 two R 32 cars were equipped with a flywheel energy storage system. They were tested for 2 years outside of the subway system and then ran for 6 months in the subway system. The testing proved the system unreliable.Flywheel System Flywheel Test Results |
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Re: coldest stations to be at this heatwave |
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Posted by Steamdriven on Sun Jul 24 13:29:56 2016, in response to Re: coldest stations to be at this heatwave, posted by AlM on Sun Jul 24 11:24:52 2016. That's a lotta complexity to capture DC current. Since I'm not an EE, there are probably elements I don't see here. But:Why not tie the DC from block to block, into a net of sufficient size that there is usually a train drawing power when one is braking? With modern DC-DC voltage convertors, you could have, say, a 13KV DC bus a few miles long, supplying multiple traction power substations. Excess power from one block while 750 tons of train is braking can thus be shuttled a modest distance to another train demanding it. Why can't the old rolling stock do regen? Just use DC motors to put DC back on the rail?? There are probably more physical issues involved than I'm aware of, or it could be total lack of ambition on MTA's part. Back-of-the-napkin says there's a hundred million watts going to waste at any moment during the weekday in this way. |
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Re: coldest stations to be at this heatwave |
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Posted by Bill Newkirk on Sun Jul 24 16:07:47 2016, in response to Re: coldest stations to be at this heatwave, posted by AlM on Sun Jul 24 05:31:06 2016. Water cooling is just like what you do with a car's engine. You use water instead of freon. Presumably there is cold water running through pipes in the platform ceiling, and fans blow air over the cold water onto the platform. The only thing that's unclear is how they re-cool the water that has been warmed up after it has passed through the platform area.Thank you for the reply and link. Cooling with compressors, freon etc. might have been too costly and a waste of electric energy. Bill Newkirk |
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Re: coldest stations to be at this heatwave |
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Posted by Ian Lennon on Sun Jul 24 16:12:14 2016, in response to Re: coldest stations to be at this heatwave, posted by Elkeeper on Sat Jul 23 14:13:35 2016. They are also common in Colorado. |
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Re: coldest stations to be at this heatwave |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Jul 24 17:02:55 2016, in response to Re: coldest stations to be at this heatwave, posted by Steamdriven on Sun Jul 24 13:29:56 2016. What is surprising is that according to articles I have read about the development of electric railway technology, Frank Sprague was using regenerative braking prior to the turn of the 20th Century and European streetcars were using either dynamic or regenerative braking shortly after 1900 so why has it taken US transit systems so long to utilize technology that was available when electric railway development was in its infancy? |
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Re: coldest stations to be at this heatwave |
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Posted by AlM on Sun Jul 24 17:17:07 2016, in response to Re: coldest stations to be at this heatwave, posted by randyo on Sun Jul 24 17:02:55 2016. My guess is that the electric grid that supplies the NYC subways just isn't designed for it. I seem to remember posts on this topic before by people who actually knew something about the topic. |
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Re: coldest stations to be at this heatwave |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Mon Jul 25 09:05:23 2016, in response to Re: coldest stations to be at this heatwave, posted by heypaul on Sun Jul 24 11:21:58 2016. How long is a block? What percentage of the time is there another train in the block to capture the energy? (Clearly, these are not the same "blocks" use in signalling, where there must never be two trains in the same block.)Could some kind of storage system be installed wayside for each power block, to capture the energy when there is no other train there? Maybe those flywheels would be more successful if they were not mounted on moving trains? |
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Energy Regeneration...Re: coldest stations to be at this heatwave |
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Posted by heypaul on Mon Jul 25 10:49:26 2016, in response to Re: coldest stations to be at this heatwave, posted by Dyre Dan on Mon Jul 25 09:05:23 2016. The blocks are separate powered sections of track. The third rail is broken up into sections that can be powered/depowered without affecting other sections. So a preceding train must be in the same section.For more information about energy regeneration Energy Regeneration |
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Re: coldest stations to be at this heatwave |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Jul 25 13:33:31 2016, in response to Re: coldest stations to be at this heatwave, posted by AlM on Sun Jul 24 17:17:07 2016. I can’t see why that would have any bearing on it since the electric grid in Chicago where some of the tests took place would probably have been the same state of the art as NY’s. |
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Re: coldest stations to be at this heatwave |
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Posted by AlM on Mon Jul 25 17:30:19 2016, in response to Re: coldest stations to be at this heatwave, posted by randyo on Mon Jul 25 13:33:31 2016. Why?I'm talking about the grid within the subway system, not what the electric company provides. |
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Re: coldest stations to be at this heatwave |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Jul 26 16:10:13 2016, in response to Re: coldest stations to be at this heatwave, posted by AlM on Mon Jul 25 17:30:19 2016. There would still be no difference since regenerative braking was able to be used in Chicago back then, there should have been no reason why the power grids for the respective transit systems couldn’t have been set up for it. |
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