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| Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks (1385280) | |
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| (1385280) | |
Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 12 12:29:37 2016 What route do they take from 7th Avenue to Church Avenue? |
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| (1385294) | |
Re: Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks |
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Posted by FYBklyn1959 on Fri Feb 12 14:23:24 2016, in response to Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 12 12:29:37 2016. Looking at the track map and Google Earth (admittedly unscientific), it appears that the express tracks cut under the southwest edge of Prospect Park (while the local tracks turn south under Prospect Park West. After that, they seem to line up under Prospect Av and then are underneath the local tracks near the Fort Hamilton Pkwy station. After that, both sets of tracks swerve to the west under McDonald Av, where the express tracks rise up to the local track level for a 4-track station at Church Av. Of course after that, they come out of the portal and transition to the BMT Culver el.That's the best I can tell. |
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| (1385301) | |
Re: Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 12 14:53:40 2016, in response to Re: Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks, posted by FYBklyn1959 on Fri Feb 12 14:23:24 2016. The interesting thing is there is no line of tell-tale vent grates. |
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| (1385302) | |
Re: Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks |
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Posted by AlM on Fri Feb 12 14:54:34 2016, in response to Re: Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks, posted by FYBklyn1959 on Fri Feb 12 14:23:24 2016. I have an old Hagstrom Atlas (not with me at the office) that shows the tracks taking a short cut under the park. |
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| (1385305) | |
Re: Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks |
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Posted by italianstallion on Fri Feb 12 15:03:32 2016, in response to Re: Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks, posted by AlM on Fri Feb 12 14:54:34 2016. Yes, it's one of 2 express track short-cuts in the IND system. |
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| (1385310) | |
Re: Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks |
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Posted by andy on Fri Feb 12 15:27:38 2016, in response to Re: Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks, posted by italianstallion on Fri Feb 12 15:03:32 2016. Other express short cut is the Queens Line from 36th to 65th Streets, following Northern Blvd. with no stations. |
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| (1385312) | |
Re: Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Feb 12 15:40:19 2016, in response to Re: Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 12 14:53:40 2016. Are you sure? Since the exp tks pass under Prospect Pk ti could be possible that the vents are obscured by some of the park’s foliage. |
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| (1385313) | |
Re: Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 12 15:42:54 2016, in response to Re: Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks, posted by randyo on Fri Feb 12 15:40:19 2016. Yes, but I was thinking along the streets it must cut through. Parts of the local tracks run between streets and vents are visible there. |
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| (1385317) | |
Re: Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Feb 12 15:53:44 2016, in response to Re: Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 12 15:42:54 2016. Almost the entire portion of the exp tks between 7 Av and Ft Hamilton Pky run under Prospect Pk so except for the areas along 9 St and Ft Ham, there is no under street running. |
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| (1385318) | |
Re: Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks |
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Posted by italianstallion on Fri Feb 12 15:54:07 2016, in response to Re: Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 12 14:53:40 2016. Looks like the tracks would be under streets rather than parkland, for about 3 short blocks from the intersection of Prospect Ave. and Terrace Place, to Prospect Park SW. |
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| (1385319) | |
Re: Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks |
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Posted by Joe on Fri Feb 12 15:56:05 2016, in response to Re: Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks, posted by andy on Fri Feb 12 15:27:38 2016. We're going to get some good answers, I'm sure, because of the knowledge of transit fans. I immediately thought of a Hagstrom Map that showed the cut-off under Prospect Park. However, I must have recalled some other map, because the 1989 Hagstrom Atlas next to me now does not show the cut-off under Prospect Park.--- The Atlas (map 20) is somewhat unrealistic. It shows the IND making a 90-degree turn from 9th Street to within the east border of the park and running parallel to Prospect Park West. The Atlas does not show the express cut-off. It shows the turn to Prospect Avenue beginning only at Windsor Place, and it gains Prospect Avenue only near Tenth Avenue. The Wikipedia entry for this station has three good photos of stairways, one along Windsor Place. Apparently, no subway tracks go directly under Bartel Pritchard Square. --- I suspect that the express route diverges from the local close to PPW and 9th Street. I suspect that the express route rejoins the local route, but beneath it close to Prospect Avenue and Terrace Place. I also suspect that the curves onto and off Fort Hamilton Parkway cut the corners. --- However, this topic needs exploration by foot, looking for vents and gratings. Many thanks for input. |
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| (1385320) | |
Re: Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks |
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Posted by italianstallion on Fri Feb 12 15:58:34 2016, in response to Re: Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks, posted by Joe on Fri Feb 12 15:56:05 2016. I agree with your suspicions. My Hagstrom also does not show the cutoff, probably because it is not in revenue service. |
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| (1385328) | |
Re: Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Feb 12 17:07:00 2016, in response to Re: Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks, posted by italianstallion on Fri Feb 12 15:58:34 2016. I actually recall some old hagstrom maps showing the cutoff long before revenue service operated there. |
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| (1385335) | |
Re: Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks |
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Posted by VictorM on Fri Feb 12 18:55:56 2016, in response to Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 12 12:29:37 2016. The NYC DoITT map which I have found to be quite accurate at other locations shows the local tracks passing under a considerable amount of private property in the area (Select "Windsor Terrace", then "Show Additional Data" and pick Subways). It doesn't show the express tracks, but old Hagstrom maps show the express tunnel continuing straight north at Terrace Place and merging with the local tunnel on the curve at 9th St. I read somewhere that someone opened a door in the basement of an apartment building in the neighborhood and saw a subway train rushing past! |
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| (1385336) | |
Re: Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks |
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Posted by mrw on Fri Feb 12 18:58:11 2016, in response to Re: Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks, posted by randyo on Fri Feb 12 17:07:00 2016. The express tracks only pass through a corner of Prospect Park and for a portion of Windsor Terrace are likely below the local tracks under Prospect Ave (while waiting at the Ft Hamilton stop, a train on the express track can be heard with relative clarity).Here some of the grates in Prospect Park: just west of Prospect Park West at equiv of 9.5 St just north of Prospect Park SW at equiv of 10.5 Av When you click out to the satellite/earth view, notice the angle/direction of the grates. |
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| (1385342) | |
Re: Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks |
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Posted by VictorM on Fri Feb 12 19:45:46 2016, in response to Re: Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks, posted by mrw on Fri Feb 12 18:58:11 2016. Thanks for finding these, but I think you mean the first one is just EAST of Prospect Park West at equiv of 9.5 St. |
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| (1385344) | |
Re: Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks |
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Posted by LA Scott on Fri Feb 12 20:09:33 2016, in response to Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 12 12:29:37 2016. NYC Tax Maps clearly show the route under private property between Prospect Park SW and Prospect Ave. |
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| (1385356) | |
Re: Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks |
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Posted by Express Rider on Fri Feb 12 22:08:55 2016, in response to Re: Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks, posted by VictorM on Fri Feb 12 18:55:56 2016. convenient entry for urban exploring - in the basement, put your wash on the extra long drying cycle, open the door, and explore on the catwalk.... |
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| (1385414) | |
Re: Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Sat Feb 13 11:26:11 2016, in response to Re: Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks, posted by LA Scott on Fri Feb 12 20:09:33 2016. Wow, thanks for that.I couldn't (and really can't) think of any way for these tracks to NOT be under private property without having just as many (or as sharp) curves as the local tracks, preventing the express tracks from saving any significant time. For Queens, the street layout is such that Northern Blvd conveniently cuts off distance. Incidentally should the F ever start running express in Brooklyn again, it would win the prize for using 2 out of 2 "shortcut" corridors in the NYC subway system, if you don't count the Manhattan Bridge from DeKalb to Canal as a shortcut. |
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| (1385417) | |
Re: Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Sat Feb 13 12:01:57 2016, in response to Re: Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks, posted by New Flyer #857 on Sat Feb 13 11:26:11 2016. long ago transit experts agreed that it was a mistake to short cut the the express tracks,you took a 4 track ROW & turned it into a 2 track ROW.what happens when a train lays down on either section? |
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| (1385418) | |
Re: Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Sat Feb 13 12:01:57 2016, in response to Re: Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks, posted by New Flyer #857 on Sat Feb 13 11:26:11 2016. long ago transit experts agreed that it was a mistake to short cut the the express tracks,you took a 4 track ROW & turned it into a 2 track ROW.what happens when a train lays down on either section? |
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| (1385425) | |
Re: Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Sat Feb 13 12:23:26 2016, in response to Re: Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks, posted by tunnelrat on Sat Feb 13 12:01:57 2016. The short cuts aren't that long; you just use the local tracks. It's not as though an instant crossover can appear on a 4-track ROW between express and local. I suppose it gives a bit more working room to remove a derailed train, but hopefully that doesn't happen that often that it should make a difference. |
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| (1385427) | |
Re: Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Sat Feb 13 12:47:11 2016, in response to Re: Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks, posted by tunnelrat on Sat Feb 13 12:01:57 2016. As Andrew says, I don't think that should be the determining factor, though I would look at the profitability of having such an ROW.I like the idea of shortcutting expresses, but is there something to be said about the fact that the Queens Blvd Express skips 5 stops between Forest Hills and Jackson Heights and saves 3 minutes over the local, and does the same thing between Jackson Heights and Queens Plaza with a shortcut and still only saves another 3 minutes? |
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| (1385434) | |
Re: Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks |
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Posted by Andrew Saucci on Sat Feb 13 13:16:47 2016, in response to Re: Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks, posted by New Flyer #857 on Sat Feb 13 12:47:11 2016. Last week I was on an E that crawled into Queens Plaza, so I got impatient and switched to an R that pulled in at the same time, even though I was heading towards the LIRR Jamaica station. I was curious if I could get ahead maybe one E. That didn't happen, but I was able to board the same E again at Roosevelt Avenue. If it weren't for the likelihood of getting slowed at 71-Continental on the R waiting for trains to relay, I might have stayed on the R for fun. |
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| (1385449) | |
Re: Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks |
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Posted by italianstallion on Sat Feb 13 15:43:22 2016, in response to Re: Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks, posted by tunnelrat on Sat Feb 13 12:01:57 2016. You just use a track on the other section - so what? |
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| (1385451) | |
Re: Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Sat Feb 13 15:52:38 2016, in response to Re: Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks, posted by italianstallion on Sat Feb 13 15:43:22 2016. these ain`t my words,they were written when the system was opened.shoot the messenger. |
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| (1385453) | |
Re: Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks |
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Posted by mkeit on Sat Feb 13 16:19:25 2016, in response to Re: Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 12 15:42:54 2016. The express tracks are in a bored tunnel-there are no intermediate vents. |
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| (1385479) | |
Re: Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sun Feb 14 03:39:18 2016, in response to Re: Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks, posted by tunnelrat on Sat Feb 13 12:01:57 2016. How is that any different than the trains bypassing the stalled train on a four track main? Either way they are bypassing it. |
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| (1385480) | |
Re: Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sun Feb 14 03:42:25 2016, in response to Re: Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks, posted by tunnelrat on Sat Feb 13 12:01:57 2016. It's no different than any other 4 track arrangement where the tracks are side by side |
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| (1385543) | |
Re: Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks |
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Posted by jabrams on Sun Feb 14 18:05:41 2016, in response to Re: Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks, posted by Joe on Fri Feb 12 15:56:05 2016. There is a grating between Bartel Prichard Square entrance and the main roadway. It is at a 45 degree angle between PPW and PPS. |
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| (1385694) | |
Re: Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks |
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Posted by GIS Man on Tue Feb 16 09:19:25 2016, in response to Re: Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 12 14:53:40 2016. The local tracks are not directly under Prospect Park West, but slightly southeast of it. Gratings are visible on 16th St. and the Windsor Pl/Howard Pl. intersection.Also, the line does not run under Fort Hamilton Pkwy. from Prospect Av. to McDonald Av, but rather on an oblique course south of it. This can be seen easily in the 1951 aerials on the NYC website. Newer buildings were constructed over the path, which crossed Caton Av. at about E. 2nd St. Bob |
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| (1385712) | |
Re: Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks |
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Posted by Edwards! on Tue Feb 16 12:01:27 2016, in response to Re: Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks, posted by mkeit on Sat Feb 13 16:19:25 2016. yes...Part of the express tunnels are Shield driven Bores...just like the local tunnels are. There are quite a few of them around. |
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| (1385754) | |
Re: Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks |
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Posted by Dan on Tue Feb 16 18:47:08 2016, in response to Re: Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks, posted by GIS Man on Tue Feb 16 09:19:25 2016. IIRC you can see grates on some of the East Streets along that route. Were bellmouths built for the 2nd System 'Fort Hamilton Pkwy' subway to Bay Ridge - Staten Island? |
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| (1386938) | |
Re: Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks |
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Posted by Joe on Fri Feb 26 07:51:26 2016, in response to Route of the IND South Brooklyn (Culver) Express tracks, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Feb 12 12:29:37 2016. The Weekender on the mta.info site suggests that F trains to Coney Island will run express from Smith-9th to Church February 27th and 28th. Get out your stop watches and determine the time saved by cutting off a corner near Prospect Park. Peer out front and count the air vents thru the park if any! If you have a large notebook, you might list all the time signals, which the TA adds to every express line it can. |
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