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| Re: Service Patterns (1379860) | |
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| (1380037) | |
Re: Service Patterns |
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Posted by INDviaCulver on Tue Jan 5 03:05:56 2016, in response to Service Patterns, posted by BusRider on Sun Jan 3 14:00:14 2016. Although the service pattern ceased to exist in 1968, I STILL get somewhat confused by the JJ, QJ, RJ services. Yes, I've seen their timetables (all except the QJ schedule), but I really have to think simultaneously "OK, from 168 St in the early morning, the RJ operated but there was no JJ or QJ until about 630AM, and at certain points there were gaps in QJ service TO Jamaica in the late PM rush..........AND the M and QB Brighton service seems to confuse me too!! I havent seen the timetable, but did the QB service run via Brighton to Bway IN PLACE of an M via Nassau for that interval, OR did the QB serve to double Brighton Local service for the short peak period??? |
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| (1380048) | |
Re: Service Patterns |
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Posted by SLRT on Tue Jan 5 09:31:28 2016, in response to Re: Service Patterns, posted by INDviaCulver on Tue Jan 5 03:05:56 2016. Forget all the little permutations. Most of the confusion was trying to maintain some of the rush hour services that existed pre-Christie.The JJ. RJ and QJ were all essentially the same as the J when they ran north of Broad Street. The QJ was an attempt to through-route the Brighton Locals that used to go up Broadway and also replace the Brighton-Nassau rush-hour service. The rush-hour RJ was a way of maintaining the pre-Christie 4th Avenue-Nassau specials. As for the QB, the planners of Christie street covered services on 6th Avenue and Nassau Street for Brighton riders but there was outrage over the total lack of popular Broadway Subway service. Voila! The QB, which added a sprinkling of Broadway service. The NX was supposed to do the same with lousy success. What they have now, a Q that is the Broadway express and the B that is the 6th Avenue express, makes much more sense in where riders want to go. Routes that look good on paper don't always work out. |
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| (1380049) | |
Re: Service Patterns |
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Posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Tue Jan 5 09:33:57 2016, in response to Re: Service Patterns, posted by INDviaCulver on Tue Jan 5 03:05:56 2016. The QB doubled the M on the Brighton Local. The D was the local only when the M and QB didn't run. |
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| (1380050) | |
Re: Service Patterns |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Tue Jan 5 09:39:14 2016, in response to Re: Service Patterns, posted by SLRT on Tue Jan 5 09:31:28 2016. IIRC there was more to it than just giving people a variety of options.This post claims that the RJ filled a 45-minute gap in QJ service, for example. |
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| (1380051) | |
Re: Service Patterns |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Tue Jan 5 09:51:09 2016, in response to Re: Service Patterns, posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Tue Jan 5 09:33:57 2016. And apparently the QB equipment/crews were shared with the M and RR? I went back to this thread. |
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| (1380052) | |
Re: Service Patterns |
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Posted by SLRT on Tue Jan 5 10:14:49 2016, in response to Re: Service Patterns, posted by New Flyer #857 on Tue Jan 5 09:39:14 2016. Which QJ gap are you referring to specifically? |
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| (1380058) | |
Re: Service Patterns |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Tue Jan 5 13:10:23 2016, in response to Re: Service Patterns, posted by New Flyer #857 on Tue Jan 5 09:39:14 2016. Don't know for sure, just that the linked post seems to indicate that, first in the AM rush, the transition between the JJ (overnight) and the QJ (AM rush) was broken up with the RJ. The post isn't as clear as to what happened in the PM other than to say that the northbound QJ wasn't around while the northbound RJ was. Where the QJ was I don't know. Short-turned maybe? |
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| (1380060) | |
Re: Service Patterns |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Tue Jan 5 13:15:10 2016, in response to Re: Service Patterns, posted by SLRT on Tue Jan 5 10:14:49 2016. Sorry meant my last post as a response to yours. |
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| (1380065) | |
Re: Service Patterns |
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Posted by SLRT on Tue Jan 5 14:01:37 2016, in response to Re: Service Patterns, posted by New Flyer #857 on Tue Jan 5 13:10:23 2016. Dealing with the a.m. service as an example. The QJ only operated when the D operated express on the Brighton Line, the same as the former QT Brighton Local. The equipment for the northbound RJ had to get to 95th Street somehow, so what would have been JJs (to Broad Street) became RJs (to 95th Street) so they could return north as the desired rush hour service.So what I'm saying is those RJs ran in the time before the QJ was to begin running; therefore they were actually equipment moves that also carried passengers, not a particularly useful service. To give a different perspective, before Christie Street, 4th Ave. and Brighton "Banker's Specials" (as they were then known) and West End Short Line trains didn't terminate in the Nassau Loop but had to go to an outer terminal. So a train would go through the loop, and then return to Brooklyn, maybe as a West End Local, or a Brighton train (picking up its first passengers at deKalb southbound) or even go to East New Yard (light) to layover for the evening rush. That was why you may see a picture of a Triplex in DO yard. I hope I made that halfway clear. |
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| (1380070) | |
Re: Service Patterns |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Tue Jan 5 15:15:54 2016, in response to Re: Service Patterns, posted by SLRT on Tue Jan 5 14:01:37 2016. Got it. Thanks! |
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| (1380074) | |
Re: Service Patterns |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Jan 5 15:44:24 2016, in response to Re: Service Patterns, posted by Edwards! on Tue Jan 5 00:48:07 2016. I didn’t omit it. I alluded it in the various tweaks of service that took place over the years. The Lex service the I mentioned going the So/Fy late PMs and weekends was the Woodlawn (4) but sometime circa 1960, the south terminals were swapped and Woodlawn went to Utica and White Plains (5) took over the late PM and weekend service into So/Fy. |
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| (1380077) | |
Re: Service Patterns |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Jan 5 15:51:40 2016, in response to Re: Service Patterns, posted by randyo on Tue Jan 5 15:44:24 2016. I believe the #5 operated from South Ferry from 7PM-1AM, M-F, sharing the #1's platform. Too bad that service cannot be restored! |
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| (1380080) | |
Re: Service Patterns |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Jan 5 16:16:11 2016, in response to Re: Service Patterns, posted by SLRT on Tue Jan 5 14:01:37 2016. Prior to Chrystie, there were 5 West End lcls that put in from CIYd and went into service at 25 Ave N/B. After running in service to Chambers St, they relayed and went south to 95 St where they became the bankers’ specials. After running north as 4 Av expresses through the bypass and via the Manny B, they went south as West End lcls short turning at 9 Av. They then went north back to Chambers St where they relayed south and entered regular midday West End lcl service. Since S/B West End lcl service in the AM rush was provided by returning Bankers’ specials, 5 N/B AM West End lcls terminated at Chambers St with 3 of them running light to DO (ENY) Yd and 2 returning light back to CIYd. Brighton bankers’ specials operated from BBC to Chambers via the tunnel and after discharging passengers ran light back to CIYd. In the PM the process was reversed accept that there were only 3 bankers’ specials of each service instead of 5 like in the AM and those were the 3 midday layups from DO Yd. Also, while the 4 Av specials were express in the AM, in the PM, they ran lcl to 95 even though they ran via the bridge. The PM Brighton bankers’ specials as I recall them ran light from CIYd to Dekalb where they ran in service over the bridge and ran south via the tunnel but all the way through to CI instead of terminating at BBC. Regardless of whether the trains operated via the bridge or the tunnel, the trains carried “Chambers St" as the north destination. It’s interesting to note that after the assignment of the R types to both the West End and Brighton Lines, theca’s did not have route signs for 4 Av or Brighton/Nassau services, the TA assigned the letter “M” to both Nassau services even though that reading was intended for the Myrtle/Chambers service which eventually did receive that designation. Since in the AM neither service N/B would be at the same station enroute to the Nassau Line there would be no confusion and even if that were to happen due to a reroute, both trains served the same stations on the Nassau Line anyhow. In the PM since the 4 Av specials ran lcl, they couldn’t use the M since it read “Express” so the PM 4 Av specials carried “S/Special” signs. Also since they were on 2 different lines in Bkln, and stopping at the same stations along Nassau St although in opposite direction, there might have been a possibility of passenger confusion if both trains used the same letter. |
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| (1380081) | |
Re: Service Patterns |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Jan 5 16:52:20 2016, in response to Re: Service Patterns, posted by New Flyer #857 on Tue Jan 5 09:51:09 2016. At the time M, QB and RR used R-27/30s with an occasional R-42. The rule at Stl was that if a QB went BO on the stand, an M would have its signs changed and would be operated as a QB and the M interval abd. Similar procedures applied at 95 St so that the RR Nassau specials would not be dropped but a regular Rr would become the special and raw RR Bway would be dropped. Most of the QBs were operated by M crews, but there were some unique variations in the timetables and work programs between the M and RR. Since around there late 1970s, the RR need an extra train to accommodate increasing ridership, the first 2 QBs would operate up the Astoria line, 1 to Astoria and 1 to Qnsbro Plz where they would be turned south and operate S/B as RRs. If I recall, one of them would operate to Canal St and lay up and the other would operate through to 95 St. In the PM the process was reversed except that both RRs operated through to Astoria where they turned S/B and became the last 2 QBs. As to whether M or RR crews would operate those QBs it depended on which would be the most productive when the work programs were being prepared. On some picks, an RR crew operating to Astoria would operate one of the QBs back to Stl usually as a last trip where the crew would lay up the train. The other interval might have an M crew operating an RR N/B usually the Canal put in and go S/B on the QB and finish in M service. The following pick the crew assignments might be reversed. It all depended on what would produce a more effective work program. |
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| (1380087) | |
Re: Service Patterns |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Jan 5 17:24:00 2016, in response to Re: Service Patterns, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Jan 5 15:51:40 2016. That’s about right although over the years the cut off time got progressively earlier. The main reason that the late PM Lex service to So/Fy won’t be restored is the inside platform at So/Fy is now closed and unsuitable for passenger service so the Bwlg Grn shuttle can’t be operated. Since full time Lex service into So/Fy service cannot be operated it really wouldn’t make any sense to have a part time service going there especially since it would be during off hours when the demand would be the least. |
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| (1380090) | |
Re: Service Patterns |
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Posted by italianstallion on Tue Jan 5 18:00:02 2016, in response to Re: Service Patterns, posted by randyo on Tue Jan 5 16:16:11 2016. As requested by someone else, please skip lines in your posts once in a while. |
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| (1380091) | |
Re: Service Patterns |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Jan 5 18:05:35 2016, in response to Re: Service Patterns, posted by italianstallion on Tue Jan 5 18:00:02 2016. I’ll give it a try next time around. |
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| (1380113) | |
Re: Service Patterns |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Tue Jan 5 20:05:56 2016, in response to Re: Service Patterns, posted by randyo on Mon Jan 4 14:16:21 2016. I remember flip-down signs on the platform at Tremont Ave. saying "Express not running", attached to the larger signs showing Downtown Express and Downtown Local (with arrows to the tracks). The idea was that the signs would be flipped up in the morning rush when the D ran express, then flipped back down when it ended. Since I never rode in the morning rush then, I don't know if they were actually used as intended. |
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| (1380115) | |
Re: Service Patterns |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Jan 5 20:37:39 2016, in response to Re: Service Patterns, posted by randyo on Tue Jan 5 17:24:00 2016. #5 service stopped at South Ferry on the #1's outer platform. Both routes can't share SF outer station? really? |
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| (1380121) | |
Re: Service Patterns |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Jan 5 20:45:56 2016, in response to Re: Service Patterns, posted by Dyre Dan on Tue Jan 5 20:05:56 2016. I didn’t ride the D Line much during the week prior to Chrystie, and when I did I don’t recall ever getting off or on at Tremont so I never noticed. |
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| (1380144) | |
Re: Indentation WAS Service Patterns |
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Posted by b/p rupture on Wed Jan 6 02:04:59 2016, in response to Re: Service Patterns, posted by Andrew Saucci on Mon Jan 4 22:44:03 2016. HTML is idiotic when it comes to indentation,... spaces in excess of one are ignored...Not a perfect solution, but: How to indent in HTML: Typing & |
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| (1380188) | |
Re: Service Patterns |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Jan 6 15:21:47 2016, in response to Re: Service Patterns, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Jan 5 20:37:39 2016. Yes they can, but during hours when 5 service goes into Bkln, the shuttle which can’t use the outer loop would have to be activated and with the inside platform unusable now it can’t be done. It would not make much sense to have Lex service into So/Fy during off hours and not during rush hours and middays. |
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| (1380194) | |
Re: Service Patterns |
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Posted by BusRider on Wed Jan 6 16:27:36 2016, in response to Re: Service Patterns, posted by randyo on Tue Jan 5 16:52:20 2016. During that time, were you giving like a quota for car assignments or number of cars, or did each line have a service requirement that assisted with making new schedules for each pick? |
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| (1380210) | |
Re: Service Patterns |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Jan 6 18:50:27 2016, in response to Re: Service Patterns, posted by BusRider on Wed Jan 6 16:27:36 2016. We made the timetable and that determined the train requirements. There were times when Car Equipment informed us that their wouldn’t be enough cars available for a proposed service increase and then we adjusted the timetable accordingly. |
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| (1380211) | |
Re: Service Patterns |
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Posted by BusRider on Wed Jan 6 18:59:30 2016, in response to Re: Service Patterns, posted by randyo on Wed Jan 6 18:50:27 2016. It just seems to me more critical back then being cars weren't married paired, mixed type cars of same length, various service patterns.Unless the frequencies of each line wasn't frequent back then. All I could picture with little technology is a bunch of track maps, type writers, and hand written passenger counts at various stations. Were work rules still as crucial as they are now regarding meal breaks, etc? |
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| (1380217) | |
Re: Service Patterns |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Jan 6 19:22:10 2016, in response to Re: Service Patterns, posted by BusRider on Wed Jan 6 18:59:30 2016. Meal breaks were never guaranteed. If the railroad was in the toilet, you could be stuck working thru your lunch because you arrived late, but left on time. Or you could be on the road during your meal time. |
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| (1380219) | |
Re: Service Patterns |
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Posted by BusRider on Wed Jan 6 19:26:52 2016, in response to Re: Service Patterns, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Jan 6 19:22:10 2016. Interesting, thanks. |
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| (1380223) | |
Re: Service Patterns |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Wed Jan 6 20:39:55 2016, in response to Re: Service Patterns, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Jan 6 19:22:10 2016. Like tonight. I got stuck on a train between Woodhaven and Rego Park for 45 minutes.Car 8529 on the M. We were told there was a sick customer at Forest Hills. We never should have been allowed to leave Woodhaven. I will complain. Someone should be written up on this. |
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| (1380263) | |
Re: Service Patterns |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Jan 7 12:46:27 2016, in response to Re: Service Patterns, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed Jan 6 19:22:10 2016. Meal breaks still had to be scheduled and if a crew did not have a minimum of 20 min of a scheduled lunch break due to a service disruption, they would get paid for it. |
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