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Re: Empire Connection Track Map |
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Posted by R30A on Thu Oct 8 17:30:42 2015, in response to Empire Connection Track Map, posted by NIMBYkiller on Thu Oct 8 16:53:38 2015. At its narrowest, 1 track. Most of the rest of it 2-4. At its widest, probably about 10 for a short bit...2 active tracks throughout, except for the very north and south ends where it becomes 1. |
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Re: Empire Connection Track Map |
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Posted by italianstallion on Thu Oct 8 19:03:11 2015, in response to Re: Empire Connection Track Map, posted by R30A on Thu Oct 8 17:30:42 2015. There is one track over the Spuyten Duyvil swing bridge, but I believe the bridge used to have 2 tracks and has enough room for 2. |
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Re: Empire Connection Track Map |
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Posted by R30A on Thu Oct 8 19:29:04 2015, in response to Re: Empire Connection Track Map, posted by italianstallion on Thu Oct 8 19:03:11 2015. Yes, but there is equipment which would have to be moved in the way.Certainly easier than the bottom of the line though. |
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Re: Empire Connection Track Map |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Fri Oct 9 12:21:05 2015, in response to Re: Empire Connection Track Map, posted by R30A on Thu Oct 8 17:30:42 2015. So most of it could have 3 tracks? With side platform space as well? |
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Re: Empire Connection Track Map |
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Posted by R30A on Fri Oct 9 13:21:07 2015, in response to Re: Empire Connection Track Map, posted by NIMBYkiller on Fri Oct 9 12:21:05 2015. I doubt it. |
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Re: Empire Connection Track Map |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Oct 9 13:38:59 2015, in response to Re: Empire Connection Track Map, posted by R30A on Fri Oct 9 13:21:07 2015. I agree... there is a section along the rocks where even two tracks is a tight squeeze... |
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Re: Empire Connection Track Map |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Sun Oct 11 09:08:34 2015, in response to Re: Empire Connection Track Map, posted by R30A on Fri Oct 9 13:21:07 2015. What's it looking like around the areas of 60th St, 125th St, and Dyckman St? |
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Re: Empire Connection Track Map |
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Posted by r33/r36 mainline on Sun Oct 11 16:29:20 2015, in response to Empire Connection Track Map, posted by NIMBYkiller on Thu Oct 8 16:53:38 2015. The ROW isn't very wide around 125th Street, its on a EL structure tucked nicely near the highway. |
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Re: Empire Connection Track Map |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Mon Oct 12 08:49:05 2015, in response to Re: Empire Connection Track Map, posted by r33/r36 mainline on Sun Oct 11 16:29:20 2015. Enough space to lift some platforms up along the sides? |
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Re: Empire Connection Track Map |
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Posted by R30A on Mon Oct 12 11:44:28 2015, in response to Re: Empire Connection Track Map, posted by NIMBYkiller on Sun Oct 11 09:08:34 2015. You could probably put platforms in somewhere near any location you wanted.With regards to a third track- I don't really see the point. A second track would be most valuable on each end though. And better connections on each end too. |
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Re: Empire Connection Track Map |
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Posted by pragmatist on Mon Oct 12 17:34:57 2015, in response to Re: Empire Connection Track Map, posted by R30A on Mon Oct 12 11:44:28 2015. The second track at the South end might be the hard one. How wide is the tunnel box that was built to do the connection? Can it take a second track, or would a new tunnel (a very tricky project to do now) be required? |
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Re: Empire Connection Track Map |
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Posted by 3-9 on Mon Oct 12 18:02:03 2015, in response to Re: Empire Connection Track Map, posted by NIMBYkiller on Mon Oct 12 08:49:05 2015. There used to be a station there, though I don't know if it was there when the highway was around. |
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Re: Empire Connection Track Map |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Mon Oct 12 21:29:50 2015, in response to Re: Empire Connection Track Map, posted by R30A on Mon Oct 12 11:44:28 2015. I'm thinking in terms of Amtrak's being able to bypass locals, but the headways I'm thinking aren't so tight that it probably wouldn't be necessary |
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Re: Empire Connection Track Map |
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Posted by R30A on Mon Oct 12 21:42:26 2015, in response to Re: Empire Connection Track Map, posted by pragmatist on Mon Oct 12 17:34:57 2015. I dunno if you would actually need to build a new tunnel. Certainly no room in the existing one, but if you stay on the old Right of way to the high line, and simply turn east where the right of way would turn west, you could connect to the northernmost track in West Side Yard. All of the tunneling required would be under streets, and it would be very little at that. (maybe a couple hundred feet) |
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Posted by pragmatist on Mon Oct 12 22:00:51 2015, in response to Re: Empire Connection Track Map, posted by R30A on Mon Oct 12 21:42:26 2015. If that could fly, it would be a big help. I guess since it's the NYS politicos that really want to make it happen, the MTA would have to be somewhat cooperative. Well. we can hope... |
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Re: Empire Connection Track Map |
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Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Tue Oct 13 20:29:37 2015, in response to Re: Empire Connection Track Map, posted by NIMBYkiller on Mon Oct 12 21:29:50 2015. Amtrak does pretty well with just 2 tracks sharing with hourly (or better) Metro North service on the upper Hudson line... really the biggest benefit/need would be a second track in the two single track areas, so that a train waiting for clearance onto the Hudson line or into Penn Station isn't blocking a train trying to leave Penn / the Hudson Line... |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Wed Oct 14 07:21:41 2015, in response to Re: Empire Connection Track Map, posted by 3-9 on Mon Oct 12 18:02:03 2015. I don't think so. Also, the ROW was put onto the El around the same time the highway was built- during the 1930s, as part of Moses's "West Side Improvement". Accordingly, there was never a passenger station on that structure. The NYC west side line gave up passenger service around 1930 or 1931...I have personally seen what sort of looks like a platform on the east side of the ROW around 125th..but that was a freight station, similar to what can be seen on the High Line just north of Gansevoort and at the Westbeth remnant... |
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Re: Empire Connection Track Map |
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Posted by Bill West on Thu Oct 15 20:13:47 2015, in response to Empire Connection Track Map, posted by NIMBYkiller on Thu Oct 8 16:53:38 2015. Google EarthI didn't join this earlier as the answers were so easily found in Google Earth. Are you familiar with its ruler tool in middle of the top bar? It looks like a fat ruler set vertical. You use it to click/draw a line or a path and it shows you the distance in feet, miles or whatever you want. For instance in line with 125th /La Salle St it is 65ft from the center of the ROW to the edge of 12th Ave and 45ft to the edge of the Hudson Pkwy. In the bottom left "Layers" box, "Primary Database/Roads" turns on the street names, a little zoom in/out causes them to appear as they fit in. The other tool is Street View which is an orange man figure that appears at the upper right edge when you hover. Drag him over and blue lines show wherever views are available. Drop him where you want, it zooms in and you can drag the view direction around or double click up the street to move it. The Exit button is at the top right and the R key on your keyboard will turn the aerial view back to vertical facing north. Now I hope I haven't over described this but it did show me all the answers to what's available at 60th St, 125th St, and Dyckman St in only a few minutes. Okay? I also noticed that for the upper station ideas that aside from platform space, it is a distance to any other transportation. Empire line wye This item I looked into much more deeply. The "hidden" wye at the south end of the Empire connection has been questioned from time to time. I probed Historical Aerials and found that they do have it but it easily slips out of view. The trick is to keep the wye zoomed in at the upper left edge of your screen, otherwise the maps will switch and the years you need will disappear off the selection list. To help with counting off street numbers on the aerials make a mental note that 42nd St is well marked and that the Lincoln tunnel approaches lead to the NE corner of 39th and 11th. The tail off the wye is at the SE corner of 41st St and 11th Ave. The south switch is where the mainline crosses 39th and while the north switch is between 43rd & 44th, the lead parallels the main until 41st where it curves sharply west then NW to the tail. The wye shows on the topo maps for 1947, 59, 65, 70, 72, 79, 88, 99 and in the aerials for 1953, 54, 66. The approaches for the 1937 Lincoln tunnel were later built over the mainline part before 1953, then the tail of wye built over between 1954 & 1966 and the rest covered between 1966 & 1980. The covered over area can be seen in all the later aerials. A connection with Highline/ Side Improvement Project was found at the NYC online library. These maps show that in the late 30's the wye was built to reach yards previously served by surface tracks on 11th Ave. 1930 map for old 42nd St yard 1930 map showing wye not in 1957 map of a new Railway Express Agency building in place of 42nd St yard and showing an access ROW under 41st/11th. The building shows in the aerial pictures and disappears between 1966 & 1980 1957 map of wye showing 3 tunnels exiting the wye tail but the only one with track is to the SW of 41st/11th 1957 map showing that it is the stock pens that it points to. The building shows in the aerial pictures and disappears between 1954 & 1956 NYPL's "Photographic views of NYC" collection has construction shots. At the bottom right of each view is a click to the original captions on the back side of each album page Image ID 712762F SE from 41st & 11th showing excavation 1936. Caption says it will run to 42nd St yard and ferry (car float) Image ID 712763F NW towards 41st & 11th beyond the immediate buildings 1936. Also a finished view SE across 41st & 11th 1940 Image ID 710682F NW from 41st & 11th to east end of the REA building 1940 Image ID 733563F shows the north switch of the wye at 41st St in 1937 Empire line tunnel This was built in 1983 in anticipation of the 1985/86 West Side Yard. Construction started as soon as the NYCRR yards were cleared. It sits on top of the North River tunnels and was formed then lowered inches onto a pad. Pictures suggest that with the curvature it is not wide enough for a second track and building a second tunnel with no vertical space for construction support between the yard floor and the North River tunnels seems either over costly or else disruptive to WSY's center tracks. Also one would be crowded on the SE part of the curve by the new tunnel box that is being built. Bill |
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| (1427403) | |
Re: Empire Connection Track Map |
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Posted by Bill West on Sun Feb 12 15:47:12 2017, in response to Re: Empire Connection Track Map, posted by Bill West on Thu Oct 15 20:13:47 2015. I just noticed that newer Google Earth pictures are now showing a clearer picture of this wye. It appears the existing overbuild has been demolished and excavated revealing the tunnel casing. Look at the block surrounded by 40-41st streets and 10-11th avenues. There is a short ramp from the northwest corner to the roof of the wye's tail and a lighter coloured building basement floor over top of the wye. If you've got the transportation layers turned on there is a black line at the 10th Ave side which is Google's estimate of where the Empire line runs.Bill |
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