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The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today! |
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Posted by William A. Padron on Fri Sep 25 09:19:10 2015 This Date In NYC Transit History = September 25, 1915 (100 years ago):The BRT/BMT Fulton Street elevated line was extended along Liberty Avenue in Queens, and that route extension was originally built as part of the BRT/BMT's portion of the Dual Contracts. There were six new stations that opened along the line: Hudson Street (80th Street), Boyd Avenue (88th Street), Rockaway Boulevard [near 96th Street], Oxford Avenue (104th Street), Greenwood Avenue (111th Street) and Lefferts Avenue [Lefferts Boulevard]. New Elevated Line Opened For Queens. However, and much later, as a BMT Division route, service along Liberty Avenue ended on April 26, 1956, with its tracks severed and disconnected. Then, IND Division subway service would take over the remaining portion from hereon in (with a new connecting downward ramp from a new station at Grant Avenue) three days later on April 29, and first used by the "A" trains. It has seen more years as an IND Division route along this stretch, with its station agent booths having been assigned with the N-prefix series, but there are still the former BMT K-route signal code chaining group, with its numbers descending westward toward Grant Avenue. The Fulton Street elevated line's older structure at a point west of the 80th Street-Hudson Street station (near the Brooklyn-Queens borderline) was later torn down around 1957-1958. Fast forward to this date in 2015... The six stations are currently being rehabilitated into a good state of repair, all to be completed sometime next year in 2016. The project includes new side wall panels (with decorative art work) and floor platforms, improved lighting and signage at all the stations, plus new elevators to be installed at the Lefferts Boulevard terminal station. Happy 100th!!! -William A. Padron ["Fulton-Lefferts Blvd."] |
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Re: The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today! |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Sep 25 10:03:57 2015, in response to The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today!, posted by William A. Padron on Fri Sep 25 09:19:10 2015. Good post! Question; was that the first (only) Elevated extention constructed with original concrete platforms?? |
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Re: The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today! |
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Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Fri Sep 25 10:34:22 2015, in response to The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today!, posted by William A. Padron on Fri Sep 25 09:19:10 2015. HAPPY BIRTHDAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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Re: The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today! |
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Posted by SLRT on Fri Sep 25 10:37:32 2015, in response to Re: The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today!, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Sep 25 10:03:57 2015. The Brighton Line had concrete station platforms, including on elevated and embankment portions from 1905-08 rebuilding on.However, platform extensions to accommodate 6 and 8 car trains on aboveground portions tended to be wood. |
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Re: The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today! |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Sep 25 14:01:42 2015, in response to The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today!, posted by William A. Padron on Fri Sep 25 09:19:10 2015. Thanks, Mr. A Train!!!By the by, we're still waiting for the "extensions on towards Jamaica" |
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Re: The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today! |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Sep 25 14:03:25 2015, in response to Re: The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today!, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Sep 25 10:03:57 2015. I believe the Jamaica El had concrete on all Dual Contract stations, except for 168th Street, from Day 1. 168th was intended to be a temporary terminal- which it was, but not in the way originally planned. |
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Re: The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today! |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Sep 25 15:43:39 2015, in response to Re: The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today!, posted by MainR3664 on Fri Sep 25 14:03:25 2015. Lefferts Av also had wooden platforms since it too was intended to be a temporary terminal like 168 St with the possibility of both an extended Fulton St El and a Jamaica El meeting somewhere east of 168 St at a point where Liberty and Jamaica Aves come very close to each other. |
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Re: The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today! |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Sep 25 15:49:28 2015, in response to The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today!, posted by William A. Padron on Fri Sep 25 09:19:10 2015. If I recall, BMT service to Lefferts ended after the PM rush on Friday April 27, 1956 allowing the weekend for connecting the IND ramp to the Fulton El structure west of 80 St. Interestingly, although Lefferts Avenue had been upgraded to a boulevard some years earlier, The station name and BMT train destinations still carried the reading Lefferts AVENUE. Also the original IND signs at Euclid and Grant read “To Lefferts Avenue” but prior to opening the signs were changed and the word “Avenue” was covered over with the word “Boulevard” which was obvious to the casual observer since it was in a different font from the name “Lefferts." |
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Re: The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today! |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Fri Sep 25 15:57:55 2015, in response to Re: The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today!, posted by MainR3664 on Fri Sep 25 14:01:42 2015. "By the by, we're still waiting for the "extensions on towards Jamaica"I think those plans were waylaid by a few post-article developments. (1) The United States' entry into World War I in 1917 and post-war inflation eating into the 5 cent fare; (2) The bankruptcy of the BRT after Malbone Street in 1918; (3) The rise of Red Mike Hyland and his plan to build the IND into Jamaica, which he did. (4) The Dual Contracts extension of the Jamaica line to 168th Street in Jamaica. |
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Re: The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today! |
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Posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Sep 25 18:40:38 2015, in response to Re: The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today!, posted by Mitch45 on Fri Sep 25 15:57:55 2015. "The bankruptcy of the BRT after Malbone Street in 1918;"Speculation here...Had that happened any earlier, BRT bankruptcy might have prevented the Jamaica El from reaching 168th St. |
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Re: The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today! |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Sep 25 18:44:01 2015, in response to Re: The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today!, posted by Fisk Ave Jim on Fri Sep 25 18:40:38 2015. Wasn’t that a Dual Contract project? In which case it would be like the Canarsie Line: It was built with city funds and the City was contractually obligated to complete it. |
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Re: The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today! |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Sep 26 14:57:48 2015, in response to Re: The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today!, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Sep 25 18:44:01 2015. Yes, it was built by the City. The BRT/BMT, instead of rebuilding their section from Atlantic to Hudson, chose not to do so. They were more interested in rebuilding the western portion of the Fulton St el, in anticipation of the Ashland Place connection.By the way, the original plans for the Euclid Ave ramp to Liberty Ave did NOT include the current station at Grant Ave. Apparently, Grant Ave was built to placate the area residents who were appalled the amount of private homes that had to be destroyed for the connector. |
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Re: The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today! |
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Posted by zac on Sat Sep 26 21:04:36 2015, in response to Re: The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today!, posted by Elkeeper on Sat Sep 26 14:57:48 2015. Grant Ave was built as a substitute for the 76th St station that was closed when they found out it didn't really exist. |
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Re: The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today! |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Sep 26 22:22:43 2015, in response to Re: The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today!, posted by zac on Sat Sep 26 21:04:36 2015. LOL!!! |
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Re: The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today! |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Mon Sep 28 07:13:19 2015, in response to Re: The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today!, posted by randyo on Fri Sep 25 15:43:39 2015. Ok, thanks. By now, Lefferts's platform has been platform has been rebuilt with concrete, no? |
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Re: The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today! |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Mon Sep 28 07:14:23 2015, in response to Re: The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today!, posted by Mitch45 on Fri Sep 25 15:57:55 2015. No doubt there were many excuses, all individually valid, as to why things, all across the system, didn't get finished, or some cases, ever built at all. |
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Re: The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today! |
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Posted by William A. Padron on Mon Sep 28 08:34:50 2015, in response to Re: The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today!, posted by randyo on Fri Sep 25 15:49:28 2015. Yes, you're correct, so my post as April 26, 1956 that BMT Fulton El service is not, which came from two subway history books that I had used as a source The official service notice posted in the museum R-1/9's had say that it would be discontinued at 8:00pm Eastern time on that date, and IND service would begin at 12:00noon on that Sunday, April 29, 1956.-William A. Padron ["Blind stop K-2 594A", new warning sign at Lefferts Boulevard near bumper] |
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Re: The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today! |
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Posted by William A. Padron on Mon Sep 28 08:38:19 2015, in response to Re: The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today!, posted by MainR3664 on Mon Sep 28 07:13:19 2015. Yes, all were eventually during the 1970's, when I started photographing that station beginning in February 1973. The Transit Museum photo archive has a 35mm negative strip from the earlier part of the decade with images still showing the original wooden platforms in the center, but the concrete extension ends necessary for the 10-car "A" trains to be used there.-William A. Padron ["#3198"] |
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Re: The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today! |
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Posted by William A. Padron on Mon Sep 28 08:41:56 2015, in response to Re: The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today!, posted by zac on Sat Sep 26 21:04:36 2015. Nonsense! Grant Avenue IND was to be the replacement for the Grant Avenue BMT stztion that wss to be closed, and later demolished.And so it goes... -William A. Padron ["K1-472"] |
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Re: The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today! |
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Posted by Ancient Mariner on Mon Sep 28 12:07:11 2015, in response to The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today!, posted by William A. Padron on Fri Sep 25 09:19:10 2015. Wow! Construction began in April, 1914, and the line was in service seventeen months later. Contrast that with anything done recently. Even a two-mile elevated extension would be more likely to take seventeen years than seventeen months now. |
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Re: The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today! |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Sep 28 15:14:46 2015, in response to Re: The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today!, posted by William A. Padron on Mon Sep 28 08:41:56 2015. That sounds about right since the photos of the Euclid model board that also show 76 St clearly show Grant Ave station. |
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Re: The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today! |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Sep 28 15:22:37 2015, in response to Re: The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today!, posted by Elkeeper on Sat Sep 26 14:57:48 2015. Actually, the section between Atlantic (Actually just west of Penna Ave) and Hudson St would have needed to be rebuilt also in order for the Ashland Pl connection to make any sense since by that time only steel cars would have been allowed in the subway. There were 2 other semi non related issues that interfered with upgrading of the remaining portions of the Fulton El. One involved building of a new station on the Bway Bkln at Willy B plaza just west of and possible to replace Marcy Av. The other which actually was related involved relocating the Fulton St el in downtown Bkln off Fulton St and onto Adams St for a new connection to the Myrtle El and the Bkln Br. The conflict was over whether the city or the BRT would pay for those other 2 projects and the city refused to do any further upgrading of Fulton until the other issues were resolved which they never were. |
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Re: The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today! |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Sep 28 19:43:25 2015, in response to Re: The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today!, posted by randyo on Mon Sep 28 15:22:37 2015. I am familiar with all of these proposed projects. Plus, electing Hylan as mayor in 1918 didn't help matters. |
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Re: The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today! |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Tue Sep 29 16:56:11 2015, in response to Re: The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today!, posted by William A. Padron on Mon Sep 28 08:41:56 2015. You are reading post-War stuff! The original 1941 (see: Brooklyn Eagle, 12/06/1946) pre-War plans were to connect Euclid Ave with the Liberty Ave el AT Grant Ave, which would have to have been demolished for the connection. The first station after Euclid was supposed to have been 80th/Hudson. Neighbors in the area were appalled that 20-30 mostly residential buildings would have to be demolished. (Brooklyn Eagle, 11/15/1949). As its green (not Fulton-Pitkin IND white) subway tile will attest, it was planned after the war! |
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Re: The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today! |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Tue Sep 29 20:08:10 2015, in response to Re: The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today!, posted by William A. Padron on Mon Sep 28 08:34:50 2015. By the time the R-1/9s and R-10s had Lefferts Blvd. signs added to their curtains, they all said Lefferts Blvd. Oddly enough, when I started riding on the R-10s every Saturday right about this time 48 years ago, I didn't pay too much attention to the front destination sign and for the longest time I thought it said, "Fulton-Lefferts 8th Av." OK, so that B looked kind of like an 8. |
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Re: The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today! |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Tue Sep 29 20:09:05 2015, in response to Re: The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today!, posted by Ancient Mariner on Mon Sep 28 12:07:11 2015. There was no OSHA back then, for one thing. |
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Re: The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today! |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Sep 29 20:25:07 2015, in response to Re: The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today!, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Tue Sep 29 20:09:05 2015. one might want to know how many injuries/deaths occurred during construction. We wear hard hats, steel toes, etc for a reason. |
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Re: The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today! |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Sep 30 14:48:30 2015, in response to Re: The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today!, posted by Elkeeper on Tue Sep 29 16:56:11 2015. Documentation I have seen indicates that the entire subway infrastructure S/O Rocky Av was completed as far as Euclid (dare I say 76 St?) prior to the start of WWII with the exception of the station tile work, track and signals. The color of the tiles at Grant really have nothing to do with the planning since the actual construction of the station was done post WWII and the tile work was state of the art for subway construction at the time as was the case with the tile work between ENY and Euclid. Unlike the tie work N/O ENY, which was pure white, the tile work S/O ENY is a slight off white like much of the post war station work in the IND like 179 St and 42/8 Lower. The original design for the tile work S/O ENY was to have been the pure IND white had it been completed prior to WWII which it was not. By the time of the actual station finishing new standards for subway tile work were in place and thus were utilized. Among the variations of plans for the extension of the IND Fulton line was to have the line extended under Liberty Ave and like the plan you mentioned connected to the BMT Fulton structure at Grant which probably would have meant a replacement of the existing elevated station at Grant rather than a complete elimination. |
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Re: The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today! |
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Posted by William A. Padron on Sat Oct 3 13:20:41 2015, in response to Re: The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today!, posted by randyo on Wed Sep 30 14:48:30 2015. Looking at a 1940 Hagstrom map issued, it showed the IND Fulton Street Line extended with the new stations along the line with a tag saying "Open 1943" at these locations after Rockaway Avenue: Liberty Avenue, Van Siclen Avenue, Shepherd Avenue, Euclid Avenue, 75th Street [76th], 85th Street [84th], Cross Bay Boulevard and 106th Street [105th]. It did not show a station at what would eventually be at Broadway-East New York.Yes, I seem to recall during the 1970's that the Transit Museum had posted on display diagram drawings dated from the year 1945 of the tile work that was to be set along those local stations under Pitkin Avenue that eventually opened after WWII. They look liked in the standard IND square tile format, but with the two-tone blue color band. The revised rectangular tiling was seen as early of 1947 from a photo taken at Liberty Avenue as posted on the Museum of New York's website. As for Grant Avenue, yes, the BoT and later NYCTA had perhaps the plans eventually redrawn, and would not have probably then not be in a position at the time to just strengthen and rebuild the older BRT/BMT elevated station and structure that would had to accommodate the heavier-built IND trains, plus constructing a much tighter curve going up there. The ramp west of 75th Street and the replacement station built (the last new one in Brooklyn to date) eventually built was perhaps a much better, smoother fit to go along with the 1914-15 built structure. -William A. Padron ["Grant"] |
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Re: The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today! |
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Posted by William A. Padron on Sat Oct 3 13:40:04 2015, in response to Re: The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today!, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Tue Sep 29 20:08:10 2015. Well, there were around some older R-10 roll signs printed in 1948 that still did have the "Fulton St/Lefferts Blvd" reading on the front, along with those that had said "Fulton St/Euclid Av". There are a few photos seen on the Transit Museum photo archive of new R-10's delivered to 207th Street Yard signed up for the latter terminal that I had mentioned above.It could be a possibility that the BoT, when they ordered and received the R-10's as new, that they were in the planning process to extend the IND Fulton Street line beyond Euclid Avenue. Although, most commonly seen that there were many, many R-10 front roll signs, along with the R-1/9's, with those as "Fulton/Lefferts Blvd" (without the "St" after Fulton) as perhaps new add-on's stitched to the roller curtains or as simply replacements. To whit, two examples... R-10 #3208, 207th Street, IND "A" line, 10/5/1975. R-10 + R-4 #714, Rockaway Boulevard, IND "A" line, 7/16/1967. -William A. Padron ["K2-588"] |
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Re: The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today! |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Oct 3 14:42:20 2015, in response to Re: The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today!, posted by William A. Padron on Sat Oct 3 13:20:41 2015. Although I have seen contract drawings of the extension to the Fulton El, I don’t recall the specs for Grant, but I imagine it was originally intended to be the same color as Euclid following the usual IND tile coloring scheme. |
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Re: The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today! |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Oct 3 14:46:14 2015, in response to Re: The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today!, posted by William A. Padron on Sat Oct 3 13:40:04 2015. What is interesting about the signage is that the R-11s had both BMT and IND signs and their BMT readings read Lefferts AVENUE while the IND readings read Fulton St/Lefferts Blvd. I’ve been trying to find out when Lefferts Ave was elevated to boulevard status without much success, but it was probably done around the same time as Ditmars, Astoria and Junction since all this were also originally avenues and are now boulevards. |
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Re: The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today! |
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Posted by northshore on Sat Oct 3 16:21:02 2015, in response to Re: The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today!, posted by William A. Padron on Sat Oct 3 13:40:04 2015. They were probably add-on's done the same time as Far Rockaway and Rockaway Park signs. |
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Re: The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today! |
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Posted by William A. Padron on Sat Oct 3 16:52:36 2015, in response to Re: The Liberty Avenue Elevated Is 100 Today!, posted by northshore on Sat Oct 3 16:21:02 2015. Yes, plus "Aqueduct" and "Wave Crest" as the add-on's too for the R-10's. "Aqueduct Race Track" was an add-on on the sides for the R-1/9's.-William A. Padron ["Exit|Cross Bay Blvd & Liberty Av"] |
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