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Re: The Customer is Not the MTA's Top Priority |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jul 14 15:27:52 2015, in response to Re: The Customer is Not the MTA's Top Priority, posted by Broadway Buffer on Wed Jul 8 14:43:58 2015. If there is a sign that says Astoria trains stop at Hunters Point, that would be confusing and should be covered up.On the mezzanine of the 65 Street station until a few years ago, the mosaic read "To Rockaway and Jamaica". It is now covered over as it should be. The system is confusing enough for tourists. We don't need to add to that confusion by retaining outdated mosaics with wrong info or referring to names no longer used like Hudson Tubes. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jul 14 21:30:52 2015, in response to Re: The Customer is Not the MTA's Top Priority, posted by BrooklynBus on Tue Jul 14 15:27:52 2015. That sign at HP is still correct because passengers to Astoria still have to board any train that stops at that platform.The “To Rockaways” sign is completely wrong and was never right and belongs in a museum. “Hudson Tubes” is not at all confusing. Anybody who doesn't know what it is will simply ignore it. |
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Re: The Customer is Not the MTA's Top Priority |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Jul 15 10:33:21 2015, in response to Re: The Customer is Not the MTA's Top Priority, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jul 14 21:30:52 2015. Regarding your first point -,but they won't know they have to get off and change and might assume the 7 goes to Astoria, unless an announcement is made at Queensboro Plaza to change here for Astoria trains, but I believe all you will hear if anything is change for the N and Q trains. |
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Re: The Customer is Not the MTA's Top Priority |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jul 15 13:08:03 2015, in response to Re: The Customer is Not the MTA's Top Priority, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Jul 15 10:33:21 2015. You’re assuming that people enter the subway completely oblivious as to how to get to their destination. This isn’t the case. People will ask how to get somewhere or alternately consult a map or some kind of routing app. In your scenario, a person must enter the nearest subway station, and then go through the turnstile not having made any effort to ascertain a route for themselves. This is just implausible.Anyone who knows where they’re going would have already determined that they need to transfer at Queensborough Plaza to an N or Q. The sign would not persuade them to stay put once they arrive at QBP. |
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Re: The Customer is Not the MTA's Top Priority |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Wed Jul 15 13:19:34 2015, in response to Re: The Customer is Not the MTA's Top Priority, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jul 15 13:08:03 2015. Furthermore, who takes route guidance from fancy ornamental tile mosaics if there are modern signs hanging all around the station? |
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Re: The Customer is Not the MTA's Top Priority |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Wed Jul 15 13:47:33 2015, in response to Re: The Customer is Not the MTA's Top Priority, posted by BrooklynBus on Mon Jul 13 20:36:06 2015. It's okay if he makes a guess, but when I do it and say its a guess or probable, then it's not okay. And you wouldn't say you are just a little biased?"I was disappointed by Mr. Rosen's op-ed where conjecture was passed off as truth, and scaremongering was embraced" |
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Re: The Customer is Not the MTA's Top Priority |
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Posted by fdtutf on Wed Jul 15 14:35:18 2015, in response to Re: The Customer is Not the MTA's Top Priority, posted by terRAPIN station on Wed Jul 15 13:47:33 2015. Heh heh heh! |
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Re: The Customer is Not the MTA's Top Priority |
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Posted by Michael549 on Wed Jul 15 19:16:44 2015, in response to Re: The Customer is Not the MTA's Top Priority, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jul 15 13:08:03 2015. From a previous message:"Anyone who knows where they’re going would have already determined that they need to transfer at Queensborough Plaza to an N or Q. The sign would not persuade them to stay put once they arrive at QBP." Plenty of riders if they are on a trip and they are not sure of where they are going, they will often simply ask a question to the other riders on the train. "Hey how do I get to Astoria?" Plenty of riders on that #7 train will quickly tell that person where to change. New Yorkers are often funny like that, they will give directions if asked. Mike |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Jul 15 20:03:03 2015, in response to Re: The Customer is Not the MTA's Top Priority, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jul 15 13:08:03 2015. Signs need to be designed for tourists who have no idea where they are going. They are the ones who rely on them the most. I see plenty of confused tourists who don't plan their route in advance and are studying maps or asking questions. No need to add unneccessary confusion and complexities. Asking tourists to ignore old mosaics instead of new signs is just ridiculous. If I went to Paris, I woudn't say to myself, that sign looks old, so it is probably inaccurate so I will ignore it. |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Jul 15 20:04:19 2015, in response to Re: The Customer is Not the MTA's Top Priority, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Jul 15 13:08:03 2015. Signs need to be designed for tourists who have no idea where they are going. They are the ones who rely on them the most. I see plenty of confused tourists who don't plan their route in advance and are studying maps or asking questions. No need to add unneccessary confusion and complexities. Asking tourists to ignore old mosaics instead of new signs is just ridiculous. If I went to Paris, I woudn't say to myself, that sign looks old, so it is probably inaccurate so I will ignore it. |
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Posted by TerrapIN StatiON on Wed Jul 15 21:46:49 2015, in response to Re: The Customer is Not the MTA's Top Priority, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Jul 15 20:03:03 2015. Asking tourists to ignore old mosaics instead of new signs is just ridiculous.No it's not. Not in the least bit. You're insane. If I went to Paris, I woudn't say to myself, that sign looks old, so it is probably inaccurate so I will ignore it.You must be mental then, because I'm sure most people WOULD ignore an old wall mural if there are much newer, conflicting signs right nearby. |
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Posted by TerrapIN StatiON on Wed Jul 15 21:54:42 2015, in response to Re: The Customer is Not the MTA's Top Priority, posted by fdtutf on Wed Jul 15 14:35:18 2015. :) |
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Re: The Customer is Not the MTA's Top Priority |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jul 16 14:27:20 2015, in response to Re: The Customer is Not the MTA's Top Priority, posted by TerrapIN StatiON on Wed Jul 15 21:46:49 2015. First of all the Hudson Tubes sign was either refurbished or newly installed. It wasn't "old". So this entire discussion doesn't even make any sense. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 16 14:33:37 2015, in response to Re: The Customer is Not the MTA's Top Priority, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jul 16 14:27:20 2015. And as explained, the "Hudson Tubes" sign is in no way conflicting or confusing. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 16 14:34:09 2015, in response to Re: The Customer is Not the MTA's Top Priority, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Jul 15 20:03:03 2015. And a sign at HP that points to Astoria makes things less confusing, not more. |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Jul 16 15:06:57 2015, in response to Re: The Customer is Not the MTA's Top Priority, posted by BrooklynBus on Wed Jul 15 20:04:19 2015. Signs are only as good as the willingness of the passengers to read them. I was at Jay/Metrotech (the former BMT Lawrence St platform) which is a transfer point to the A, C and F lines. The escalators, stairways and elevator, however are at the North end of the platform. The old escalator farther back is an exit only which leads passengers to high wheel exit turnstiles and doesn’t even allow passengers to go back down to the platform since it is UP only. There are signs allover indicating where the transfers to the A, C,F are and there is even the statement “EXIT ONLY” painted on the platform in large yellow letters at the immediate entrance to the non transfer escalator warning passengers. Last night a group of passengers used that escalator and then attempted to contact travel info via the direct speaker inquiring as to where to catch the A train. At that point there was no option for the confused travelers than to exit and reenter paying an additional fare. I explained to them that they should have read the advisory on the platform that indicated that it was exit only and they wouldn’t have gotten lost. All passengers have to do is READ and there will be no problems. |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jul 16 15:35:11 2015, in response to Re: The Customer is Not the MTA's Top Priority, posted by randyo on Thu Jul 16 15:06:57 2015. What you say is certainly trur, but I don't know how it is relevant to the discussion about misleading signage. |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jul 16 15:36:07 2015, in response to Re: The Customer is Not the MTA's Top Priority, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 16 14:34:09 2015. And how is that the case? |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jul 16 15:39:19 2015, in response to Re: The Customer is Not the MTA's Top Priority, posted by Wakefield-241st Street on Tue Jul 14 12:10:40 2015. Yes, I was the one who added it in 1981. It's hard to remember everything after 34 years. |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jul 16 15:39:59 2015, in response to Re: The Customer is Not the MTA's Top Priority, posted by Spider-Pig on Tue Jul 14 11:47:14 2015. Yes, I added it in 1981. That's why it was there. |
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Posted by Michael549 on Thu Jul 16 15:43:17 2015, in response to Re: The Customer is Not the MTA's Top Priority, posted by randyo on Thu Jul 16 15:06:57 2015. Randyo, I will second & third your point.There have been PLENTY of times, at the Bowling Green station when using the original entrance, when folks are rushing down the stairs and asking about how to get to the uptown side as an uptown train is rushing into the station. All one can do is point to the stairs that HAVE SIGNS to get to the uptown side. There ARE signs that point riders to travel downstairs (and then back upstairs) to catch the uptown trains. One at the turnstyles upon entering the station! Another at the base of the stairs hanging from the ceiling. Then when there was working being done, an additional sign pointing to the stairs! There is a fence along the platform that separates the Brooklyn-bound side from the uptown side. (Yes, I know historically, the current Brooklyn-bound platform was the single platform that served both directions, but the station was renovated in the 1970's! And there ARE SIGNS pointing to the uptown side.) Yes, folks do NOT READ signs! Mike |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 16 15:54:54 2015, in response to Re: The Customer is Not the MTA's Top Priority, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jul 16 15:36:07 2015. If I knew nothing about the subway and found out that I need to take the 7 to QBP and transfer to the N or Q to get to Astoria, a sign telling me that a platform is for trains to Flushing means nothing. I’m not going to Flushing and I know nothing about Flushing. To Flushing and Astoria is more useful as I know that is where to go. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 16 15:56:40 2015, in response to Re: The Customer is Not the MTA's Top Priority, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jul 16 15:39:59 2015. But you stated, without equivocation, that the B100 was “never included.”If you’re not sure, you should say so. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 16 15:59:15 2015, in response to Re: The Customer is Not the MTA's Top Priority, posted by Michael549 on Thu Jul 16 15:43:17 2015. Some people are just not “readers.” They instinctively ask for things even though there are signs that they could look at. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 16 15:59:52 2015, in response to Re: The Customer is Not the MTA's Top Priority, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 16 15:59:15 2015. Although I should add that there’s really no excuse for randyo's example. |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Jul 16 17:51:45 2015, in response to Re: The Customer is Not the MTA's Top Priority, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 16 15:54:54 2015. If any of you remember, many of the subway entrances had a rather comprehensive list of all the places the trains on the division were likely to go even if some of those locations were not directly reachable by any of the trains stopping at that particular station. |
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Posted by Michael549 on Thu Jul 16 19:46:37 2015, in response to Re: The Customer is Not the MTA's Top Priority, posted by randyo on Thu Jul 16 17:51:45 2015. I remember seeing pictures of such signs on the outsides of stairways and other entrances. I also remember a rather comprehensive sign that used to hang above the center platform at the Atlantic Avenue subway station for the #2, #3, #4 and #5 trains - concerning the days, times and terminals for the various #4 and #5 trains.There are certain "artifacts" of NYC to point to the past even within the subways, and it times I don't think it is a good idea to be in such a rush to remove such items. There are also sets of "quirks" within the subways that should be kept, just because they are quirks. Just some quick examples: a) The misspelling of Broadway in the tiles at a station in Brooklyn b) The Eighth Avenue line actually having a stop on Sixth Avenue c) The remaining platform of the Myrtle Avenue station being used for lighted art-work displays d) The quirky little statues all over the 14th Street-Eighth Avenue station, and similar treatments in other places e) The various tile work and stained glass displays at plenty of stations f) The various trips (now and then) of the Nostalgia trains or the Trains of Many Colors, etc. Each of these kinds of things and more could be removed all in the name of being "modern". Such quirks and artifacts makes New York City different from other places. Mike |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jul 16 19:53:08 2015, in response to Re: The Customer is Not the MTA's Top Priority, posted by Michael549 on Thu Jul 16 15:43:17 2015. But is there a sign at the original entrance that directs uptown riders to the other entrance as an alternate where you don't first have to go down then up? I doubt it.That would be user friendly because using the original entrance for uptown only makes sense if it is raining. |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jul 16 19:56:08 2015, in response to Re: The Customer is Not the MTA's Top Priority, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 16 15:56:40 2015. It's been 34 years. I forgot I added it.The point still stands that the MTA didn't do it on its own. If not for me it would have not been included until MTA takeover. As proof, they didn't add the B103 after I was no longer there. It was added on MTA takeover. |
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Posted by randyo on Thu Jul 16 20:54:58 2015, in response to Re: The Customer is Not the MTA's Top Priority, posted by Michael549 on Thu Jul 16 19:46:37 2015. There are many instances of lines not running for their length under the streets for which they are named. The IND Smith St Line actually has more milage under streets other than Smith St. The Portion of the iND Fulton St Line S/O Bway Jct runs under Pitkin Av and ends on Liberty Ave and the last remaining portion of the BMT Fulton St el only had one station, Rockaway Ave actually on Fulton St, the rest of the line being over Pitkin and Liberty Aves. In fact, most of the 8th Av Line is located under streets other than 8th Av, the throroughfare for which the line is named. The lower portion of the IRT Lexington Ave Line runs under Park Av South and Fourth Av even though the Line is popularly referred to as the “Lexington Ave” Line and most of the BMT 14 St Line doesn’t even run under 14 St at all and the BMT Nassau St Line only runs under Nassau St itself for about 5 blocks, the rest of there line being under Centre St and Broad St. |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 16 21:46:12 2015, in response to Re: The Customer is Not the MTA's Top Priority, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jul 16 19:56:08 2015. Also false. It's on the 2002 map that was linked to earlier. The MTA takeover wasn't until 2005. |
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Posted by TerrapIN StatiON on Thu Jul 16 22:46:18 2015, in response to Re: The Customer is Not the MTA's Top Priority, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 16 21:46:12 2015. owned |
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Posted by TerrapIN StatiON on Thu Jul 16 22:52:27 2015, in response to Re: The Customer is Not the MTA's Top Priority, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 16 14:33:37 2015. Right. |
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Posted by TerrapIN StatiON on Thu Jul 16 22:53:28 2015, in response to Re: The Customer is Not the MTA's Top Priority, posted by BrooklynBus on Thu Jul 16 14:27:20 2015. It's a ye olde style sign. Same idea. And as everyone has been telling you, it's not confusing or wrong. |
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Posted by Michael549 on Thu Jul 16 23:08:37 2015, in response to Re: The Customer is Not the MTA's Top Priority, posted by randyo on Thu Jul 16 20:54:58 2015. Yes, and ALL of what you wrote are a part of the "quirks" of the subways!The reasons and the "whys" are what makes the subways interesting, and that could be said about many things in NYC. It is those vestiges, those "artifacts", those "quirks" that make life in NYC interesting, among a few other things. New York, New York is a hell of a town! Trying to reduce or eliminate those vestiges, quirks and artifacts in some kind of modernistic binge of "correctness" could easily bring out a "bland" subway and city. New York is NOT Pittsburgh!!! So yes, the Lexington Avenue subway south of 42nd Street is NOT under Lexington Avenue but under Park Avenue South & Lafayette Avenue, and it may seem crazy, but hey it's New York! The Hudson Tubes might have the PATH trains running through them now! So what! The 59th Street Bridge and Tri-Borough Bridge are well understood - no matter how much the modernists want to call those the Koch and Robert Kennedy Bridges! New York, New York is a hell of a town! Mike |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jul 17 11:27:15 2015, in response to Re: The Customer is Not the MTA's Top Priority, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Jul 16 14:33:37 2015. I guess we never should never have removed signs for the 9th Avenue El. People would just ignore them because they were old or maybe we should have refurbished tile mosaics for them if they existed. |
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Posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jul 17 11:58:52 2015, in response to Re: The Customer is Not the MTA's Top Priority, posted by Michael549 on Thu Jul 16 23:08:37 2015. According to your way of thinking, nothing ever should ever change because you are interfering with history. I don't agree. There comes a time something doesn't make sense any more and that is when change is needed.I remember those old directional signs very well. One must ask the reason for their installation. Those signs were nothing more than big advertisements. They were erected by two separate companies and the City which operated the IND. Each system was trying to advertise its own system to maximize patronage. (There also were no free transfers between companies.) The convention was to list the terminals of all lines directly serving that station. Additionally, major points of interest and transfer points were also listed such as Penn Station, Grand Central, Times Square, and directions such as Uptown and downtown and the line names like Lexington. Connecting lines were not listed that I remember although they were operated by the same company or were points accessible via transfer. For example the sign at Utica Avenue and Eastern Parkway which I stared at for 25 years said something like Lexington and 7th Aenue Broadway subway to Uptown and the Bronx, Grand Central, Times Square and Penn Station and New Lots Avenue. it might have even included Van Cortlandt Park and Bronx Park. There was no mention of a transfer to the Flushing Line or a transfer to get to Flatbush Avenue although both were possible using the IRT. Once the system was unified, there was no reason to try to maximize patronage for each division but to get people to use the entire system using all free transfers. It took the Board of Transportation, the NYCTA, and the MTA 35 years to do sonething about that but the decision was made to use the letters and numbers and terminals instead of all the other information. Yes it was more simplistic and gave much less information, but it made sense to do since service had changed since the 1940s and now some points were only available with a transfer and many now available with a transfer were omitted. That was the same reason double letter designations were dropped. Single letters were purely express and double letters were originally purely local. Since by the 1970s everything was a mix of express and local, keeping those designations only added to confusion. Not everything historic needs to be retained. I bet if the MTA attempted to change those signs today instead of in the 1970s, historians would want them all landmarked which would be ridiculous. They might even say single and double letter designations are historic and must remain. Common sense must prevail. Not everything old must remain. |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Fri Jul 17 14:14:13 2015, in response to Re: The Customer is Not the MTA's Top Priority, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jul 17 11:27:15 2015. Huh? That makes no sense, both by itself and in the context of this thread. Try again. |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Jul 17 14:16:33 2015, in response to Re: The Customer is Not the MTA's Top Priority, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jul 17 11:58:52 2015. Actually, the single letter designation originally applied to trains that operated express somewhere along their route which is why the E carried a single letter even though it ran local in Manhattan. It ran express in Queens hence the single letter. Single/double letter designations are still useful on lines like the A and C since the current C is a misnaming of an extended AA local that ran along the A line for many years. Also as originally planned, the letters linked the north end branch line with the Manhattan trunk line and with the elimination of the double letters, that system has gone away. |
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Posted by Michael549 on Fri Jul 17 15:17:15 2015, in response to Re: The Customer is Not the MTA's Top Priority, posted by randyo on Fri Jul 17 14:16:33 2015. For a long period of time, even the E-train was EXPRESS in Manhattan during the rush hours! And for certain periods also EXPRESS in Brooklyn on Fulton Street during the rush hours.Mike |
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Posted by Michael549 on Fri Jul 17 15:43:52 2015, in response to Re: The Customer is Not the MTA's Top Priority, posted by BrooklynBus on Fri Jul 17 11:58:52 2015. From a previous message:"According to your way of thinking, nothing ever should ever change because you are interfering with history." I SAID NOTHING OF THE KIND! "Not everything historic needs to be retained. I bet if the MTA attempted to change those signs today instead of in the 1970s, historians would want them all landmarked which would be ridiculous. They might even say single and double letter designations are historic and must remain. Common sense must prevail. Not everything old must remain." I SAID NOTHING OF THE KIND! I know that I can be long-winded, and that sometimes my points may get lost in the mass of sentences and words. I said nothing of the kind that you are suggesting. Mike |
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Posted by randyo on Fri Jul 17 16:48:07 2015, in response to Re: The Customer is Not the MTA's Top Priority, posted by Michael549 on Fri Jul 17 15:17:15 2015. I definitely remember that but for most of the 24 hour day it was local in Manhattan. |
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Posted by Michael549 on Fri Jul 17 17:04:55 2015, in response to Re: The Customer is Not the MTA's Top Priority, posted by randyo on Fri Jul 17 16:48:07 2015. My only point was that the E-train "express" designation could not only apply to its Queens section, but also from a long history point of view to its Manhattan and Brooklyn sections.I realize that some folks these days might not reflect upon those "long ago" times (anything before the 1970's). I do remember rail-fanning in the mid-1970's, and seeing the E-train express signage at 42nd Street-8th Avenue above the express tracks while the E-train local signs were above the local tracks. Mike |
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