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| Ways to improve C & R trains (1358803) | |
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| (1358820) | |
Re: Ways to improve C & R trains |
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Posted by VictorM on Tue Jul 7 00:33:48 2015, in response to Ways to improve C & R trains, posted by BrooklynTrain on Mon Jul 6 21:38:00 2015. If they could find the equipment, they could have a gap train waiting at Whitehall St in the PM rush, to be put into service if needed, but it would an added expense. |
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| (1358835) | |
Re: Ways to improve C & R trains |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Jul 7 09:35:49 2015, in response to Ways to improve C & R trains, posted by BrooklynTrain on Mon Jul 6 21:38:00 2015. I have an unpopular idea: eliminate the Broadway express and run the Q local. This reduces one switching move at 34th st. |
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Re: Ways to improve C & R trains |
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Posted by AlM on Tue Jul 7 10:34:03 2015, in response to Re: Ways to improve C & R trains, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Jul 7 09:35:49 2015. What's the point? The Q ought to be running to 96th street starting in 18 months. Then it has to run express. |
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| (1358840) | |
Re: Ways to improve C & R trains |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Jul 7 10:46:06 2015, in response to Re: Ways to improve C & R trains, posted by AlM on Tue Jul 7 10:34:03 2015. (RR) Service should run from ASTORIA to Ft Hamilton. 100% Local 24/7 with saturation intervals as needed. It might be a local, but it ought to be right there right now. I know about the terminal problem, but think outside of the box and fix it. There is no excuse for switching the (RR) train in and out of traffic. It needs its dedicated route, and should go CBTC ASAP.Trains running Local on Broadway run between 60th Street and the Tunnel Express trains run between 63rd Street and the Bridge. The (Q) train should run Second Avenue to Coney Island via Bway Express and Brighton Local The (N) train should run Continental to Coney Island via Sea Beach Broadway Express and Queens/Brooklyn Local. It will run via 63rd Street so there will be no Queens Plaza stop. It could run from 179 at least during rush hours, if not all of the time that it runs. To solve the RR terminal problem, select RR trains will run to Coney Island via Sea Beach to be replaced by selected (N) trains to Ft. Hamilton, this way all (N)/(RR) trains can cycle through Coney Island. ROAR |
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Re: Ways to improve C & R trains |
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Posted by Michael549 on Tue Jul 7 11:19:02 2015, in response to Re: Ways to improve C & R trains, posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Jul 7 10:46:06 2015. I've said in the past, that I would re-create the W-train and operate it 24/7/365 as the local service to/from Astoria with its terminals being Whitehall Street (full-time), and Coney Island via the Sea Beach line (midnight hours), with additional rush hour service out of Canal Street/City Hall lower level and 9th Avenue stations. That way during the rush hours W-train operate every 5 minutes, the current service level of N & Q trains now. (With regular service to/from Whitehall Street and Astoria about 8-10 minutes.)At the same time, I'd have both the N & Q trains operate out of 96th Street & Second Avenue. At 8-10 minutes between trains, this would have trains running every 4-5 minutes on Second Avenue. Both the N & Q trains would operate express along Broadway, over the Manhattan Bridge and to/from their respective terminals in Brooklyn. This would give East-side riders an incentive to use the New Second Avenue subway with its frequent service, and help fulfill its original goal as the intended relief for the Lexington Avenue subway. There would be NO criss-crossing of the local and express trains! The express and local routes would be "straight-railed" through Manhattan. During the midnight hours, the N & R trains would stop running as usual, and the R-train would have its usual midnight Brooklyn shuttle operation. The W-train would be extended to Coney Island via Sea Beach (the N-train route) making all local stops in Queens, Manhattan and Brooklyn, and allowing the usual transfers. This way on the BMT-Broadway line the pathways of the N & Q trains never have to cross the paths of the R & W trains. The similarity of the N & Q trains would make the terminal operations at 96th Street easier. This should speed up the N & Q trains since the major merge point would be the DeKalb Avenue complex, otherwise the N & Q trains would be "straight-railed" to their respective terminals. The R-train would be helped and speeded up because it would only have to deal with the following merge points: a) Queens Plaza & 11th Street cut, b) rush-hours only Canal Street/City Hall for some W-trains, c) regular terminal service at Whitehall - most W-trains, and d) rush-hours only at 36th Street/9th Avenue - some W-trains. The reduction in merge points should allow speedier traffic since the the R-train would not have to interact with the N or Q express trains. If the Second Avenue subway were to open in 18-months - this idea would go a long way to helping out the N, Q, R and W lines. Mike |
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Re: Ways to improve C & R trains |
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Posted by caine515 on Tue Jul 7 12:01:21 2015, in response to Re: Ways to improve C & R trains, posted by Michael549 on Tue Jul 7 11:19:02 2015. What happened to the old "R" service that used to operate via the Nassau line to Chambers Street during Rush Hours? If this service was introduced again it would help the "R" line a lot. |
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| (1358845) | |
Re: Ways to improve C & R trains |
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Posted by Michael549 on Tue Jul 7 12:54:59 2015, in response to Re: Ways to improve C & R trains, posted by caine515 on Tue Jul 7 12:01:21 2015. Basically a long time trend of fewer riders bound for Nassau Street from Brooklyn.The rush hours RR seemed to have started in the mid-late 1960's as a way to send needed trains along the J-train route, AND as a way to continue the Nassau Street loop of trains in some fashion after the Chrystie Street improvements. In any case, R-trains that continued up the current J-train route were called RJ train in the days of the QJ, QJ, QT, and TT era of train routes. The RJ route was a rush hours only operation, with QJ and later blue M trains handling local travel along the Brighton line. The RJ moniker was dropped and replaced by the RR route name. In any case, we jump past the 1970's fiscal crisis, the re-coloring of the green RR-train to the yellow R-train, the re-coloring of the blue M-train to brown, the creation of the brown R-train. The brown R-train out of the Chamber Street station gets eliminated, leaving just the M-train traveling from southern Brooklyn along the Nassau Street line. The M-train route in southern Brooklyn has served the Brighton line (blue), the West End line (brown), and as both a local and express on the Fourth Avenue line at various times. Basically in one sentence we've jumped past the 1980's, the 1990's to the 2000's. The brown rush-hours only M-train that traveled local along the West End route was determined to have very few riders. In 2010 the route of the M-train was changed and combined with the major portion of the V-train, creating the current M-train route. The current M-train route along Broadway Brooklyn, Sixth and the IND Queens Blvd pathway has been credited with increasing ridership and approval by many of the riders. Since 2010 there has been no regular direct service from the southern Brooklyn BMT-type routes along the Nassau Street line. There have been a few G.O. J-trains that plied the route due to outages of #4 train service on certain weekends. There are arguments about the ridership of "downtown Manhattan" versus "midtown Manhattan" and the changes within the central business districts of Manhattan that have occurred in NYC. The creation/conversion of the Fulton Transit Center, the expansion of transfer possibilities including the sustained usage of unlimited Metro-Cards, etc. At one time the DeKalb Avenue complex sent two train routes to lower Manhattan, two routes to Sixth Avenue, and two routes to the Broadway line. Now one consistent route is sent to Lower Manhattan. On paper a revival of the "brown R-train" may seen appropriate - in the real world, a very strong case would be needed. The conversion and creation of the current M-train route provided several "plus points" that its increase in ridership confirmed the debate. A revival of the Brown R-train would have to look at the origins and destinations of the riders, the numbers of riders, the current difficulties of the journey, etc. It would be a tough sale to revive a long-gone train route, but it is possible. A really good case would have to be made. Mike |
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Re: Ways to improve C & R trains |
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Posted by Joe V on Tue Jul 7 19:14:19 2015, in response to Ways to improve C & R trains, posted by BrooklynTrain on Mon Jul 6 21:38:00 2015. There is no excuse why it is the R train be the one that must be stabbed all the time for an Astoria express.I blame it on incompetence. There are record low number of trains running on the BMT, especially the local service south of 34th to Fort Hamilton, and no Nassau Street trains at all to cut them off. I'd kill the R south of Whitehall, and extend the J. |
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| (1358880) | |
Re: Ways to improve C & R trains |
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Posted by G1Ravage on Tue Jul 7 21:06:00 2015, in response to Ways to improve C & R trains, posted by BrooklynTrain on Mon Jul 6 21:38:00 2015. The (C) is doing all right. And we already run the (A) local to cover any gap in (C) service. |
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| (1358914) | |
Re: Ways to improve C & R trains |
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Posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Wed Jul 8 09:00:12 2015, in response to Re: Ways to improve C & R trains, posted by Joe V on Tue Jul 7 19:14:19 2015. Cutting the R off at Whitehall won't solve the switching issues at the 60th St tunnel or at 34th and Prince Streets. All it does is make the R a shorter route (and would make the J a much longer route). |
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| (1358915) | |
Re: Ways to improve C & R trains |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Jul 8 09:07:30 2015, in response to Re: Ways to improve C & R trains, posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Wed Jul 8 09:00:12 2015. There is not a switching issue, there's laziness and incompetence issues.All a southbound R has to do is possibly let an Astoria train get in front of it, at most delay 2 minutes, then the interference moves to the express track south of 42nd. We have had merging Forest Hills and Astoria services since the late 1950's. Beyond there it should be clear sailing to 95th. There is no Broadway-Brighton Local, no Nassau Street operation, no 4th Avenue express stopping at Dekalb, no excuses. I'd give the dispatchers and service planners 90 days to solve it, or show them the door. The purpose of the J to replace the R is to contain the disease from hitting Brooklyn until these personnel issues are dealt with. |
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| (1358920) | |
Re: Ways to improve C & R trains |
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Posted by Ian Lennon on Wed Jul 8 09:54:40 2015, in response to Re: Ways to improve C & R trains, posted by G1Ravage on Tue Jul 7 21:06:00 2015. I still think they are shooting themselves in the foot. The 179 order should be all ten car sets. |
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| (1358927) | |
Re: Ways to improve C & R trains |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Jul 8 10:36:15 2015, in response to Re: Ways to improve C & R trains, posted by Ian Lennon on Wed Jul 8 09:54:40 2015. Then they'll have no way of getting rid of the R42's needed at ENY, except for retaining 50 R32's (which they ought to do anyway). |
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| (1359010) | |
Re: Ways to improve C & R trains |
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Posted by Q Brightliner Harry on Wed Jul 8 23:37:53 2015, in response to Re: Ways to improve C & R trains, posted by #5 - Dyre Ave on Wed Jul 8 09:00:12 2015. While I would cut the R to Whitehall, I would not extend the J, as it already is a long route. Instead, there should be a new, short route, from Atlantic Av. on the Canarsie Line to 95th St.-Fort Hamilton. Such a route would have the fringe benefit of allowing the J/Z to run express between Broadway Junction and Marcy Av., making it a more attractive option to the E, thereby reducing pressure on the E. Yes, some investment would have to be made to restore capabilities at Atlantic Av. to allow it to become a terminal. |
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| (1359012) | |
Re: Ways to improve C & R trains |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Jul 9 00:12:54 2015, in response to Re: Ways to improve C & R trains, posted by Michael549 on Tue Jul 7 11:19:02 2015. That way during the rush hours W-train operate every 5 minutes, the current service level of N & Q trains now. (With regular service to/from Whitehall Street and Astoria about 8-10 minutes.)According to the schedule data available from the MTA, there are 14 not 12 downtown trains departing from Queensboro Plaza between 8 and 9am. The schedule lists them as: "08:03:30";"Q" "08:08:30";"N" "08:13:00";"Q" "08:18:30";"N" "08:23:30";"Q" "08:26:30";"N" "08:30:30";"Q" "08:33:00";"N" "08:36:30";"Q" "08:40:30";"N" "08:43:30";"Q" "08:48:30";"N" "08:51:30";"Q" "08:54:30";"N" All these trains operate to Coney Island. |
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Re: Ways to improve C & R trains |
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Posted by R36 #9346 on Thu Jul 9 00:37:03 2015, in response to Re: Ways to improve C & R trains, posted by Q Brightliner Harry on Wed Jul 8 23:37:53 2015. Atlantic Av. on the Canarsie LineThere's no way to turn a train there without interrupting L service. The nearest location would be the middle track at Broadway Junction (J). |
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Re: Ways to improve C & R trains |
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Posted by Q Brightliner Harry on Thu Jul 9 01:15:15 2015, in response to Re: Ways to improve C & R trains, posted by R36 #9346 on Thu Jul 9 00:37:03 2015. The Atlantic Av. station on the Canarsie Line should be rebuilt to the capabilities it once had. For the relatively small cost, the result is multiple benefits. |
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| (1359017) | |
Re: Ways to improve C & R trains |
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Posted by Michael549 on Thu Jul 9 01:44:56 2015, in response to Re: Ways to improve C & R trains, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Jul 9 00:12:54 2015. A few days ago when I brought up this suggestion, there was a question about the time schedule of the N and Q trains. I looked up the individual published download-able schedules of both the N & Q trains leaving Astoria, I noted the following.The current N-train schedule has N-trains leaving Ditmars Blvd at 5:27am, 5:37a, 5:47am, 5:57am, 6:07am, 6:17am, 6:27am, 6:37am, 6:47am, 6:57am, 7:07am, 7:17am, 7:27am, 7:37am, 7:48am, 7:56am, 8:08am, 8:16am, 8:23am, 8:30am, 8:37am, 8:44am, 8:54am, 9:05am, 9:15am, 9:25am, 9:35am, 9:45am and so on. While the current Q-train schedule has Q-trains leaving Ditmars Blvd at 6:02am, 6:12am, 6:22am, 6:32am, 6:42am, - Then every 10 minutes until: 8:12am, 8:19am, 8:26am, 8:33am, 8:41am, 8:52am, 9:03am, 9:12am, 9:20am, 9:29am, 9:39am, 9:49am and so on. I really do not want to argue, I can only go by what's published, and I'm not good at making schedules. In any case, the suggestion concerning the revived W-train was that the train frequency levels would be the same or similar to what's currently provided even if the service is provided by "one line." I gave an estimate of train frequency. I am sure that the folks at the MTA would figure out a schedule that allows a revived W-train to easily handle a regular terminal at Whitehall Street, additional rush hour service to/from 9th Avenue, as well as additional rush hour service originating/ending at Canal Street/City Hall lower level, and how incorporate midnight service to/from Coney Island, taking over for the N-train. In any case thanks for the information. Mike |
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Re: Ways to improve C & R trains |
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Posted by Michael549 on Thu Jul 9 01:55:46 2015, in response to Re: Ways to improve C & R trains, posted by Q Brightliner Harry on Wed Jul 8 23:37:53 2015. I think this suggestion for terminating the R-train at Whitehall Street comes with the implication that there would not be any service from Whitehall Street to Brooklyn. I hope that is not the case.In a sense this would be similar to when the Montague Street tunnel was closed for a year for tunnel repair, where the R-train traveled only between Manhattan and Queens (and only in Brooklyn). Leaving the Fulton Street Center as the required Plan-B for trips to/from work. For me, the ability of taking the R-train from directly in front of the Ferry terminal for the regular work trips to/from Brooklyn is extremely important - Plan-A. There are many Staten Islanders who take the R-train from the Whitehall Street station to downtown Brooklyn. Exchanging R-train service out of Whitehall Street for a J/Brown-M train like service out of the Broad Street station for work trips to/from Brooklyn requires a good daily hike to/from the ferry terminal. It is a good uphill trek to/from the ferry terminal to Broad Street, I've taken this walk in the past. Leaving Broad Street for the ferry could easily mean a missed ferry, its happened in the past. I hoping the suggestions of ending the R-train at the Whitehall Street station also means there another service from Whitehall Street to/from Brooklyn. Mike |
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| (1359021) | |
Re: Ways to improve C & R trains |
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Posted by Q Brightliner Harry on Thu Jul 9 05:42:21 2015, in response to Re: Ways to improve C & R trains, posted by Michael549 on Thu Jul 9 01:55:46 2015. Certainly you have a point. As you've noted elsewhere, any change in routing or service is likely to benefit some and inconvenience others, but to be justified more of the former than the latter. I think what I propose would benefit more people (E, J/Z, and Brooklyn R riders) than it would inconvenience (Whitehall-Brooklyn commuters). This proposed new service could be called the K. Certainly, a rush-hour via tunnel N or R or W or whatever connecting Whitehall and Brooklyn could solve the potential problem for commuters between downtown Manhattan and downtown Brooklyn. I think running the N via tunnel all weekend and not just late nights would have to be looked at as well. |
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Re: Ways to improve C & R trains |
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Posted by Joe V on Thu Jul 9 07:08:26 2015, in response to Re: Ways to improve C & R trains, posted by Michael549 on Thu Jul 9 01:55:46 2015. From the Ferry Terminal, people want to go north, not much to Brooklyn, or they would have taken the S53 or S79.Nassau Street line probably comes closer to more office space than the line along Trinity Place. |
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Re: Ways to improve C & R trains |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Jul 9 08:29:12 2015, in response to Re: Ways to improve C & R trains, posted by Michael549 on Thu Jul 9 01:44:56 2015. The MTA releases 'complete' schedule information data on the website under developer resources. This is more complete than the printed schedules.You can access this data by going to Google Maps and choosing trip directions. Specify the departing station and next station as the trip starting and destination points. Choose train as the transportation method. Choose a future date and departure time. After the next train appears, choose the schedule explorer option. The subsequent departures will appear in a pop-up window. |
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Re: Ways to improve C & R trains |
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Posted by Michael549 on Thu Jul 9 11:28:14 2015, in response to Re: Ways to improve C & R trains, posted by Joe V on Thu Jul 9 07:08:26 2015. From my home in Staten Island, just WHY would I go very much west, then south, then again north in Brooklyn via subway to go east? For that would be a totally not necessary time-consuming round about method to get anywhere! Basically that would be the path via the S53 or S79 bus routes.From where I live is absolutely easiest to just go to the ferry terminal (usually by bus), and to take the R-train to Brooklyn on the trips to/from work - Plan-A. I also have a Plan-B (and C, D, E & F,) I've done these trips for a couple of decades now. Yes, plenty of ferry riders also want to go north in Manhattan, some take the #1, or the #4 or #5, some even travel to Brooklyn on the #4 or #5 - I've done every one of those trips on a regular basis - hundreds of times. Every day I see plenty of riders getting off the ferry, and using the Whitehall Street station. A good number of those folks take the R-train uptown, and a good number of those folks take R-train TO BROOKLYN. I've been in both groups of folks for hundreds of trips over the years. Yes, generally speaking Staten Islanders tend to work on Staten Island, in Manhattan, Brooklyn, and New Jersey, taking their cars, local buses, express buses, or the bus-ferry-subway to do. "Speaking generally" however does not account for the various pathways of riders. Mike |
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Re: Ways to improve C & R trains |
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Posted by Michael549 on Thu Jul 9 11:29:41 2015, in response to Re: Ways to improve C & R trains, posted by Stephen Bauman on Thu Jul 9 08:29:12 2015. Thanks for the information, I will try it out.Mike |
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