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Re: NYC Rail networks—bursting at seams? |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Wed May 20 08:36:46 2015, in response to Re: NYC Rail networks—bursting at seams?, posted by WillD on Wed May 20 07:07:50 2015. Moses? I don't think he ever controlled the subways (or wanted anything to do with them). |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Wed May 20 08:37:42 2015, in response to Re: NYC Rail networks—bursting at seams?, posted by Broadway Lion on Wed May 20 07:47:54 2015. Some of our public services are so big, and impersonal, that a union might be needed to make a dent in themYeah . . . especially pension funds. Subways for example are not really "public sector" they are railroad companies that happen to be owned by a government Semantics. If it ain't private sector, it's public sector. Teachers? well if school districts treat workers as a disposable commodity, then yes, otherwise no When has that ever happened? Tenure is not the opposite of being treated as a disposable commodity. It is the big and impersonal that converts public sector into union fodder False. It's left-wing politicians that do that. |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Wed May 20 08:38:58 2015, in response to Re: NYC Rail networks—bursting at seams?, posted by Dyre Dan on Wed May 20 08:36:46 2015. He controlled their decline, let's say. |
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(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: NYC Rail networks—bursting at seams? |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Wed May 20 10:16:21 2015, in response to Re: NYC Rail networks—bursting at seams?, posted by WillD on Tue May 19 20:42:03 2015. Regulations *are* the problem, and the fares WILL go UP. They are far too low anyway. My round trip commute to Dickinson costs the Abbey $30.00 by car. (25 miles each way, think Wantaugh to NYP) $15.00 per trip is what the rest of America pays for a simple commute.ROAR |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Wed May 20 10:43:28 2015, in response to Re: NYC Rail networks-bursting at seams, posted by Joe V on Wed May 20 08:08:51 2015. St Albans vs Valley Stream makes sense because for a Babylon to access Valley Stream, it has to switch over to Long Beach/Far Rockaway tracks. Any westbound Babylon train stopping at Valley Stream will foul the eastbound Montauk tracks and any eastbound Babylon train stopping at Valley Stream will foul the westbound Far Rockaway/Long Beach tracks. I agree though, West Hempstead trains make more sense there if we're talking about fairness in the number of stops a train is making. For me, St Albans falls in that realm of my CityExpress plan to provide 20 min headways at all city zone stations with express bus fare and a free subway transfer. |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Wed May 20 10:45:19 2015, in response to Re: NYC Rail networks-bursting at seams, posted by Mitch45 on Wed May 20 07:20:41 2015. Do you work within walking distance of the mainline? Otherwise, the bus from Farmingdale would've been just as good |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed May 20 11:38:12 2015, in response to Re: NYC Rail networks-bursting at seams, posted by NIMBYkiller on Wed May 20 10:43:28 2015. Through the 1980's, half the Babylon trains took the Atlantic. It was the half that did not stop at Lynbrook, which connected with the Hempsteads. The Babylon was on Track 6 and the Hempstead on Track 7.There was no interference with Far Rockaway - that was the other half of the trains, and Long Beach was a Brooklyn service that connected with Huntingtons. Still and all, Babylon and Long Breach train seldom run simultaneously, or would get in each other's way. The concept now is to not use Valley Interlocking, despite its computerization, straight line everything, however slow they make the service. |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed May 20 14:23:04 2015, in response to Re: NYC Rail networks—bursting at seams?, posted by Broadway Lion on Wed May 20 10:16:21 2015. Most cars get about 25/mpg highway, at least. The abbey has a Bentley or Rolls? |
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Posted by Mitch45 on Wed May 20 14:41:30 2015, in response to Re: NYC Rail networks-bursting at seams, posted by Joe V on Wed May 20 08:08:51 2015. That's not my point. There is a wye at the junction of the Far Rockaway Branch and the Atlantic Branch. I've seen on old maps that when the lines were at grade, there were tracks in place allowing trains coming from Far Rockaway to merge onto the westbound Atlantic branch toward Jamaica and the eastbound Atlantic branch toward Lynbrook and points east. Whether this dual service existed because of the extensive number of trains coming from the west via the Jamaica Bay route I don't know. What I do know is that when the wye was elevated, the eastbound connection disappeared. Thus, if I want to get to a station east of the Far Rockaway branch, I have to travel west first either to Valley Stream or Jamaica, depending on where I want to go, switch to an eastbound train and retrace my steps. Pretty inefficient not to mention expensive ticketwise.If the eastbound portion of the wye was still in service, I might find it much easier to take the LIRR to work instead of driving over 50 miles per day round trip. Plus, there is no station in Melville. |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed May 20 14:54:12 2015, in response to Re: NYC Rail networks—bursting at seams?, posted by Dyre Dan on Wed May 20 08:36:46 2015. He made damned sure they were not invested in and diverted their funds to highways. |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Wed May 20 14:55:44 2015, in response to Re: NYC Rail networks—bursting at seams?, posted by Elkeeper on Wed May 20 14:23:04 2015. The use of a car is 55c/mile. (govt allow.)It includes fuel tires, amortization, maint, insurance, etc etc, ROAR |
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Posted by randyo on Wed May 20 15:11:05 2015, in response to Re: NYC Rail networks—bursting at seams?, posted by WillD on Wed May 20 07:07:50 2015. I doubt that even National City Lines would have or could have torn down the elevated lines that were an integral part of the transit system as extensions of subway lines. Also, the difference between the service level provide by buses vs streetcars is a lot less than the difference in the service level that would be provided by single buses vs 8 and 10 car rapid transit trains. |
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Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Wed May 20 15:38:15 2015, in response to Re: NYC Rail networks-bursting at seams, posted by NIMBYkiller on Wed May 20 10:43:28 2015. "express bus fare"In contrast, I would argue that you should ape the Europeans and have fare parity instead of this bizzare North Americam trait of magically charging more because it's faster. In Germany, transit is far more attractive when I can stand at point A and use any mode (bus, streetcar, stadtbahn, u-bahn, s-bahn, regional railway) to get to point B, while in North America, I'm forced to choose between modes due to pricing. |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed May 20 16:09:47 2015, in response to Re: NYC Rail networks—bursting at seams?, posted by Olog-hai on Wed May 20 08:35:25 2015. Lion is dating the Hamburglar. :) |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Wed May 20 16:35:45 2015, in response to Re: NYC Rail networks—bursting at seams?, posted by Broadway Lion on Wed May 20 14:55:44 2015. Government car allowance, I thought you were in a monastery! Church & state, etc! |
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Posted by pragmatist on Wed May 20 17:04:53 2015, in response to Re: NYC Rail networks—bursting at seams?, posted by Elkeeper on Wed May 20 16:35:45 2015. The IRS issues a reimbursement rate at least annually for personal use of a car for business or nonprofit purposes meant to represent real costs of ownership and operation. Payment above that rate by a business is potentially not deductible, or can trigger income to the recipient. It has fluctuated around 55 cents the last few years. It is what I get when I drive to speak at USA Hockey seminars. |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Wed May 20 17:21:35 2015, in response to Re: NYC Rail networks—bursting at seams?, posted by Elkeeper on Wed May 20 16:35:45 2015. WE do NOT get an allowance from the government. We use their figures to charge ourselves for the use of our cars. If I make a round trip to Dickinson to take people to appointments that $30.00 is charged to the health and welfare account; If I use the car to go to Dickinson to have a computer repaired that $30.00 is charges to the administration account.When I go on vacation I must include that $30.00 in my vacation budget. ROAR |
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Posted by Dyre Dan on Wed May 20 17:53:38 2015, in response to Re: NYC Rail networks—bursting at seams?, posted by WillD on Wed May 20 07:07:50 2015. If a business today did not anticipate inflation when entering a long-term contract, then yes, they would deserve to go out of business. But things were different then. A dollar was a dollar, and always had been. There were expansions and contractions of credit, but the basic value of what a dollar was worth was not something that changed to any appreciable degree. The price of gold went from $20.00 to $20.67 an ounce sometime in the 19th century, and that was IT. There is even a reference in the Constitution, in Amendment VII, to the value of $20 as the threshold value that entitles someone to a jury trial in a civil suit for an amount greater than that, which is a pretty strong indication that the objective value represented by "$20" was not something that was expected to change. |
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Posted by milantram on Wed May 20 18:29:20 2015, in response to Re: NYC Rail networks—bursting at seams?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Tue May 19 16:46:03 2015. IAWTP |
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Posted by milantram on Wed May 20 18:32:52 2015, in response to Re: NYC Rail networks—bursting at seams?, posted by Broadway Lion on Tue May 19 17:00:09 2015. The "wrong" political party? As opposed to the "Marie Antoinette" party, the GOP? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed May 20 18:50:44 2015, in response to Re: NYC Rail networks—bursting at seams?, posted by milantram on Wed May 20 18:32:52 2015. There isn't even any cake. All you get is a voucher that expired in 1950. :) |
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Posted by milantram on Wed May 20 18:50:59 2015, in response to Re: NYC Rail networks—bursting at seams?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed May 20 16:09:47 2015. LOL |
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Posted by milantram on Wed May 20 18:52:15 2015, in response to Re: NYC Rail networks—bursting at seams?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed May 20 18:50:44 2015. rimshot... |
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Posted by Edwards! on Wed May 20 21:09:54 2015, in response to Re: NYC Rail networks—bursting at seams?, posted by Olog-hai on Tue May 19 14:16:06 2015. Wow....you really hate unions,don't you? |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed May 20 21:15:49 2015, in response to Re: NYC Rail networks—bursting at seams?, posted by Edwards! on Wed May 20 21:09:54 2015. We could probably limit the list to one or two items by simply asking what he ... LIKES. :) |
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Posted by Nilet on Wed May 20 21:21:10 2015, in response to Re: NYC Rail networks—bursting at seams?, posted by Olog-hai on Tue May 19 12:31:28 2015. Government "interference" built the subway system. The subway was entirely created with government funds. The IRT and BMT were parasites that wanted a cut of a public works project and they failed to stay in business— yet you seem to think the government should have propped them up simply because they were privately owned. |
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Posted by Nilet on Wed May 20 21:21:48 2015, in response to Re: NYC Rail networks—bursting at seams?, posted by Broadway Lion on Tue May 19 07:45:27 2015. Investors thought that they could make money when they built the IRT and the BMT...The city built the IRT and BMT, not "investors." ...but if I recall, it was another communist mayor who broke that up, profits *are* immoral you know. I'm not sure who this mythical "communist mayor" you're referring to is, but the city took over the IRT and BMT because there were no profits and the system was, in fact, bleeding money. Would investors take over the system today, the fare would have to go to about $5.00. No investors would ever take it over. Investors don't invest in something that's almost certain to lose money. Passenger transportation pretty much always loses money. "Investors" are not magical beings who make things work if you conduct the right rituals. (That is simply and up to date 5c) No, a 5¢ fare adjusted for inflation would be about $1.19. |
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Posted by Nilet on Wed May 20 21:22:10 2015, in response to Re: NYC Rail networks—bursting at seams?, posted by Broadway Lion on Tue May 19 14:32:01 2015. "Bottom line, the "standard of living" in the US has been eroding for all but a few specific segments of the society"Yup, ever since Obama took over. You've got to pay attention to the news more often. It's been that way since the 70s. Most of the rich do share in very many venues. No, they don't. The rich pay much less than their fair share, and have for a long time. But if government raises the taxes too high, the rich will simply leave. And go where? You can't just opt out of society. They leave New York State, they can leave the United States. They can't and haven't. You see corporations doing that already. No, you don't. Precisely zero corporations have left the United States or New York because of taxes. What has happened is that companies filed a piece of paper declaring their headquarters was now in another country, and the United States decided to pretend that they had left the country. It's an absurd tax loophole which can be easily closed, and if closed, it would not convince them to actually leave. See, you have some odd obsession with taxes, but rich people and corporations generally don't. America is a big market and companies are not going to forgo billions of dollars in profits just because they might have to pay higher taxes on them. The top 5% of earners pay 90% of federal taxes; the bottom 50% pay less that 1% of the taxes. The top 5% of earners pay a much lower percentage of their income in taxes than the bottom 50% do. That's a problem and it should be fixed. LION PLAN FOR TAXES: 0 - 70,000 $ = 0% tax 70,000 - 1,000,000 = 15% tax 1,000,000 - 4,000,000 = 20% tax > 4,000,000 = 25 % tax Congratulations. You have bankrupted the government. What additional taxes do you propose? What government programs would you cut? |
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Posted by Nilet on Wed May 20 21:23:09 2015, in response to Re: NYC Rail networks—bursting at seams?, posted by Olog-hai on Tue May 19 14:16:06 2015. Back before government micromanaging, businesses attracted employees by offering benefits.You have got to learn some history. Company towns were not a "benefit." |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed May 20 21:23:28 2015, in response to Re: NYC Rail networks—bursting at seams?, posted by Nilet on Wed May 20 21:21:10 2015. Corporate Welfare IS what the right stands for. Social Services are a profit center. |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed May 20 21:29:20 2015, in response to Re: NYC Rail networks—bursting at seams?, posted by Nilet on Wed May 20 21:23:09 2015. Sure they were! They were a GREAT benefit to the company. By controlling everything, they ended up not only not paying their employees a dime, they even sent them to the grave owing the company money which the company got from their survivors.Olog comes from one of those great "company town" states. |
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Posted by Edwards! on Wed May 20 22:05:52 2015, in response to Re: NYC Rail networks—bursting at seams?, posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed May 20 21:15:49 2015. Well we KNOW what he likes...:< |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed May 20 22:08:14 2015, in response to Re: NYC Rail networks—bursting at seams?, posted by Edwards! on Wed May 20 22:05:52 2015. He's got plenty of passion about a lot of things, but so far I still don't see a positive "like" to any of it. Then again, "guess the psychosis of your seatmate" isn't just for buses anymore. :) |
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Posted by TerrapIN StatiON on Wed May 20 22:16:31 2015, in response to Re: NYC Rail networks-bursting at seams, posted by Mitch45 on Wed May 20 14:41:30 2015. instead of driving over 50 miles per day round trip.HAHA, SUCKS FOR YOU!!!!! |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Thu May 21 00:16:40 2015, in response to Re: NYC Rail networks-bursting at seams, posted by Joe V on Wed May 20 11:38:12 2015. I'm simply stating facts of the physical characteristics of the road. Obviously the demand/schedule dictates whether or not those physical characteristics represent any true complications. Me personally, if it can be done, I say do it. |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Thu May 21 00:19:24 2015, in response to Re: NYC Rail networks-bursting at seams, posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Wed May 20 15:38:15 2015. Well then, be happy since the express bus fare is actually less than the current RR fare from those locations. |
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Posted by NIMBYkiller on Thu May 21 00:23:56 2015, in response to Re: NYC Rail networks-bursting at seams, posted by Mitch45 on Wed May 20 14:41:30 2015. Yes, trains I believe once ran thru from the Oyster Bay branch all the way down to the Far Rockaway branch. Bob Andersen has something about it on his site I think (it might have just been to Valley Stream). When I was younger and obsessed with intra-island travel, I had a fantasy map that had a route doing exactly what you're talking about, Far Rock to Babylon (it actually went further east).I'm guessing your commute would be a 2 seat ride LIRR to the S1? |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Thu May 21 07:54:13 2015, in response to Re: NYC Rail networks—bursting at seams?, posted by Nilet on Wed May 20 21:21:10 2015. Spoken like a true Obama Communist!Way to go! |
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Posted by WillD on Thu May 21 07:57:18 2015, in response to Re: NYC Rail networks—bursting at seams?, posted by Dyre Dan on Wed May 20 08:36:46 2015. The Power Broker on page 758 says:"Most important, $425,000,000 of the city's debt limit had been incurred for the subway. In calculating the city's debt the state did not include self-supporting projects. Therefore, if the subways could be made self-supporting, the $425,000,000 could be lifted out of the constitutional debt limit and the city would have $425,000,000 more to spend on public works. And the way to make the subways self-supporting was simple: raise the five cent fare to ten cents."Then on page 933 in reference to the aftermath of the 1955 Joint Program bond sale between the PANJNY and TBTA Caro states: "When Robert Moses came to power in New York in 1934 the city's mass transportation was probably the best in the world. When he left power in 1968 it was quite possibly the worst"Just because he didn't run the MTA in the days before the TBTA absorbed the subway system does not mean he didn't hold the power of the purse over the subway and create the situation where his push to make the system profitable resulted in declining ridership and deferred maintenance. That same scenario would have resulted if the IRT and BMT had been allowed to make fare increases in the name of maintaining profitability. |
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Posted by WillD on Thu May 21 08:03:19 2015, in response to Re: NYC Rail networks—bursting at seams?, posted by randyo on Wed May 20 15:11:05 2015. NCL didn't merely target streetcar lines. They gutted the PE and Key systems in California. Those were far larger and more established networks than some of NYC's elevated lines. Hell, the PE ran actual subway services on a four track main line and that did nothing to prolong their longevity. NYC would probably have held on to the subway lines, and maybe a few els, but NCL would have seen to it that much of the el network was replaced with collector buses or something similar. You seem to be laboring under the delusion NCL was concerned about providing requisite service. They weren't. They were trying to run the services into the ground so everyone would give up, buy a car, and drive. What better way than to squeeze an entire el line on a few paltry bus services?If the IRT and BMT had not been unified with the IND you'd have a bare skeleton of the network NYC now features by the time NCL got done carving it up. |
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Posted by WillD on Thu May 21 08:03:19 2015, in response to Re: NYC Rail networks—bursting at seams?, posted by randyo on Wed May 20 15:11:05 2015. NCL didn't merely target streetcar lines. They gutted the PE and Key systems in California. Those were far larger and more established networks than some of NYC's elevated lines. Hell, the PE ran actual subway services on a four track main line and that did nothing to prolong their longevity. NYC would probably have held on to the subway lines, and maybe a few els, but NCL would have seen to it that much of the el network was replaced with collector buses or something similar. You seem to be laboring under the delusion NCL was concerned about providing requisite service. They weren't. They were trying to run the services into the ground so everyone would give up, buy a car, and drive. What better way than to squeeze an entire el line on a few paltry bus services?If the IRT and BMT had not been unified with the IND you'd have a bare skeleton of the network NYC now features by the time NCL got done carving it up. |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Thu May 21 08:04:16 2015, in response to Re: NYC Rail networks—bursting at seams?, posted by Nilet on Wed May 20 21:22:10 2015. You are the one with your head in the sand.If you drop those earning under 70,000, the government would never miss them, AND we would not hear all of this clap-trap about the "RICH-not-paying-their-way" My plan, plus the elimination of all exemptions, deductions and loopholes will bring in far more revenue than you are getting now what with people jumping from loophole to loophole and moving the bulk of their monies off shore. ROAR |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Thu May 21 08:06:25 2015, in response to Re: NYC Rail networks—bursting at seams?, posted by Nilet on Wed May 20 21:23:09 2015. We are talking about high class employes, not sand hogs, which could still be had for a dime a dozen. Not that any employee should be considered as a sand hog, but there are differences between one kind of employee or position and another.ROAR |
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Posted by WillD on Thu May 21 08:12:41 2015, in response to Re: NYC Rail networks—bursting at seams?, posted by Dyre Dan on Wed May 20 17:53:38 2015. But things were different then.No it wasn't. They had just gone through the Panic of 1893. Any business that didn't make allowances for changes in the economy, whether because of a change in currency or economic dislocation did not deserve to remain in business. If you commit to a 40 year contract to provide a service without contemplating what a nickel will be worth in 40 years (and there definitely was inflation at the time) then that can only be an abjectly idiotic business practice. Of course in the end fiat currency and the unification of the IRT and BMT into the IND both turned out to be great things. One ended the cycle of Panics that had stifled the economy through the 19th century, and the other ensured NYC's rapid transit network was not totally destroyed in the postwar period. |
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Posted by WillD on Thu May 21 08:48:03 2015, in response to Re: NYC Rail networks—bursting at seams?, posted by Broadway Lion on Wed May 20 10:16:21 2015. Regulations *are* the problem, and the fares WILL go UP.But which specific regulations are the problem? You can wring your hands and claim regulations are a problem, but you're making an argument devoid of any information. If you start being specific about which regulations in particular are the problem then we can have an informed discussion of those regulations and their costs and benefits. Otherwise it's just ignorant rabble-rousing. |
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Posted by randyo on Thu May 21 15:49:29 2015, in response to Re: NYC Rail networks—bursting at seams?, posted by WillD on Thu May 21 08:03:19 2015. I agree that the free standing el lines would have been demolished sooner than they were, but unless NCL also opted to close the entire NYCTS including the subways,it would have been difficult to shut down elevated lines that were extensions of subway lines without setting sown the entire line. Also, keep in mind that things that are done in other large cities cannot be done as easily in NY due to the geographic nature of the city and the politics behind it. |
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Posted by Nilet on Thu May 21 22:46:27 2015, in response to Re: NYC Rail networks—bursting at seams?, posted by Broadway Lion on Thu May 21 08:04:16 2015. You are the one with your head in the sand.OK, if you claim I'm ignoring the facts while linking to Rush Fucking Limbaugh, you need to warn me so I can shut off my irony meter. In any case, you clearly don't understand math. If the top 5% of earners pay 90% of taxes but receive 99% of the income, they are not paying their fair share. Moreover, the top 5% of earners do not pay 90% of all taxes— when you consider sales taxes, which are regressive and very common, the poorest people pay the largest share of their income in taxes. You also fail to account for absolute vs. disposable income. Suppose the cost of living is $11,000. Alice earns $12,000 and pays $1,000 in taxes. Bob makes $10,000,000 and pays $100,000 in taxes. Carol earns $10,000 and pays no taxes. Bob has paid the vast majority of all total tax revenue, but his tax rate is only about 1% of his disposable income. Alice has paid a very small minority of all total tax revenue, but her tax rate is 100% of her disposable income— after basic necessities are covered, everything goes to the state. As such, Alice has paid more than her fair share, and Bob considerably less. Meanwhile, since Carol doesn't have enough money to cover basic necessities, even paying no taxes is more than she should— Carol will need money from the state to make things fair (at least until the state requires her boss to pay a living wage). If you drop those earning under 70,000, the government would never miss them, AND we would not hear all of this clap-trap about the "RICH-not-paying-their-way" What "clap-trap" are you referring to? It is an objective fact that the rich do not pay their fair share. In fact, a majority of the rich didn't even earn any of their money to begin with— most "rich people" are just aristocrats by another name, living on inherited riches (ie, welfare). My plan, plus the elimination of all exemptions, deductions and loopholes will bring in far more revenue than you are getting now... Your plan cuts taxes considerably, bringing in less revenue. ... what with people jumping from loophole to loophole and moving the bulk of their monies off shore. You can simply close the loopholes. I'm pretty sure hiding money offshore is already illegal to begin with. |
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Re: NYC Rail networks—bursting at seams? |
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Posted by Nilet on Thu May 21 22:48:36 2015, in response to Re: NYC Rail networks—bursting at seams?, posted by Broadway Lion on Thu May 21 07:54:13 2015. Spoken like a true Obama Communist!That's a contradiction. Do you actually know what the word "communist" means or are you just parroting talking points you memorised by rote? Because it is an objective fact that the city built the subway, contracted/leased the operation out to the IRT and BMT and then took over when they went bankrupt and shut down. |
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Re: NYC Rail networks—bursting at seams? |
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Posted by Nilet on Thu May 21 22:49:01 2015, in response to Re: NYC Rail networks—bursting at seams?, posted by Broadway Lion on Thu May 21 08:06:25 2015. "High class employees" still do pretty well, although deregulation has hurt considerably.Although it's cute that your economic policies rely on declaring that a large swath of the population simply doesn't count. |
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Re: NYC Rail networks—bursting at seams? |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Fri May 22 17:54:47 2015, in response to Re: NYC Rail networks—bursting at seams?, posted by Nilet on Thu May 21 22:46:27 2015. Suppose that you were a Communist and I were a Capitalist...Suppose I had all of the money, and you had a box full of sand... Suppose I were a LION and found your litter box and... ROAR |
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