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| (1350155) | |
El remnants |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Apr 29 15:29:16 2015 The recent discussion of the end of the Third Avenue El got me thinking: What remnants of the Manhattan El system still survive? Here is what I know of:
Any more? |
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| (1350156) | |
Re: El remnants |
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Posted by GIS Man on Wed Apr 29 15:33:58 2015, in response to El remnants, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Apr 29 15:29:16 2015. The trackways carrying the spur of the 2nd Av. El over the Queensboro Bridge to Queensboro Plaza station are still visible.Bob |
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| (1350157) | |
Re: El remnants |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Apr 29 15:35:53 2015, in response to Re: El remnants, posted by GIS Man on Wed Apr 29 15:33:58 2015. Yes, that. Also I would include the remnants on the Manhattan side. |
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| (1350169) | |
Re: El remnants |
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Posted by Bob Andersen on Wed Apr 29 17:20:56 2015, in response to Re: El remnants, posted by GIS Man on Wed Apr 29 15:33:58 2015. Myrtle Ave. for a block or so past Broadway. |
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| (1350171) | |
Re: El remnants |
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Posted by 3-9 on Wed Apr 29 17:28:01 2015, in response to Re: El remnants, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Apr 29 15:35:53 2015. There are el remnants on the Manhattan side of the Queensboro? |
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| (1350172) | |
Re: El remnants |
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Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Wed Apr 29 17:32:00 2015, in response to Re: El remnants, posted by 3-9 on Wed Apr 29 17:28:01 2015. There are el remnants on the Manhattan side of the Queensboro?Yes there are. The best place to see them is from the Roosevelt Island Tramway. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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| (1350173) | |
Re: El remnants |
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Posted by 3-9 on Wed Apr 29 17:34:32 2015, in response to El remnants, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Apr 29 15:29:16 2015. Isn't there another substation building, located farther north, that still exists?Supposedly, there's a building (I think it's on 19th St?) that had a door for connecting to the 6th Ave El stop there. I don't think it will be all that obvious today though. |
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| (1350176) | |
Re: El remnants |
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Posted by Joe V on Wed Apr 29 17:50:50 2015, in response to Re: El remnants, posted by 3-9 on Wed Apr 29 17:34:32 2015. There is plenty of historical girder work across Brooklyn on the J line. |
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| (1350179) | |
Re: El remnants |
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Posted by Express Rider on Wed Apr 29 17:56:45 2015, in response to Re: El remnants, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Wed Apr 29 17:32:00 2015. I've seen the "trestle" girder work, continuing west on the Manhattan side of the bridge for years. Is this what you're referring to, or are there other remnants on the Manhattan side, besides this one? |
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| (1350181) | |
Re: El remnants |
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Posted by Dave on Wed Apr 29 18:12:05 2015, in response to Re: El remnants, posted by Joe V on Wed Apr 29 17:50:50 2015. And the connection between the Brighton Line at Ocean Parkway and the lower level of West 8th Street station. |
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| (1350185) | |
Re: El remnants |
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Posted by SLRT on Wed Apr 29 18:37:30 2015, in response to Re: El remnants, posted by Dave on Wed Apr 29 18:12:05 2015. That almost has to stay for structural reasons. I hope someday that restore the connection. |
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| (1350189) | |
Re: El remnants |
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Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Wed Apr 29 18:56:00 2015, in response to Re: El remnants, posted by Express Rider on Wed Apr 29 17:56:45 2015. Its the trestle and girder work that I am referring too.Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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| (1350194) | |
Re: El remnants |
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Posted by Allan on Wed Apr 29 19:27:10 2015, in response to Re: El remnants, posted by 3-9 on Wed Apr 29 17:34:32 2015. Substation #2 is still there. It is now used as the Metropolitan Lumber and Hardware store. 175 Spring St off Thompson St.There is no Manhattan El substation at 19th St. You are probably thinking of IRT Subway substation #12 at E19th St off Park Av South. There is a Manhattan El substation (#6) on E34th St off 33rd Av. It is now a branch building of Yeshiva University. |
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| (1350195) | |
Re: El remnants |
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Posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Wed Apr 29 19:35:02 2015, in response to El remnants, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Apr 29 15:29:16 2015. Not to get off track so to speak but is anything left of the Queensboro trolley loop in the underground garage trackwork ...... anything and are any recent photographs available ? thanks. Karl |
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| (1350196) | |
Re: El remnants |
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Posted by SLRT on Wed Apr 29 19:45:27 2015, in response to Re: El remnants, posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Wed Apr 29 19:35:02 2015. AFAIK, this is still current. |
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| (1350197) | |
Re: El remnants |
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Posted by SLRT on Wed Apr 29 19:50:55 2015, in response to Re: El remnants, posted by SLRT on Wed Apr 29 19:45:27 2015. And as of August 2012, it looks like the kiosk is still there. |
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| (1350199) | |
Re: El remnants |
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Posted by 3-9 on Wed Apr 29 20:18:54 2015, in response to Re: El remnants, posted by Allan on Wed Apr 29 19:27:10 2015. There is no Manhattan El substation at 19th St. You are probably thinking of IRT Subway substation #12 at E19th St off Park Av South.There is a Manhattan El substation (#6) on E34th St off 33rd Av. It is now a branch building of Yeshiva University. Sorry, my second statement was a completely separate reference. The building in question was a big store at the time. The substation on 34th St was the one my first statement was referring to. |
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| (1350206) | |
Re: El remnants |
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Posted by The silence on Wed Apr 29 21:17:56 2015, in response to Re: El remnants, posted by Bob Andersen on Wed Apr 29 17:20:56 2015. Manhattan El.... |
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| (1350213) | |
Re: El remnants |
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Posted by Bob Andersen on Wed Apr 29 22:38:30 2015, in response to Re: El remnants, posted by The silence on Wed Apr 29 21:17:56 2015. It did originally go to Manhattan over the Brooklyn Bridge! |
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| (1350215) | |
Re: El remnants |
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Posted by Dave on Wed Apr 29 22:47:56 2015, in response to Re: El remnants, posted by SLRT on Wed Apr 29 18:37:30 2015. Never understood the reason for severing it. I mean, keep it active for GO's, etc. |
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| (1350216) | |
Re: El remnants |
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Posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Wed Apr 29 22:52:47 2015, in response to Re: El remnants, posted by SLRT on Wed Apr 29 19:50:55 2015. Hasn't anyone here photographed this important piece of traction history recently ? thanks anyway. Karl |
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| (1350222) | |
Re: El remnants |
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Posted by italianstallion on Wed Apr 29 23:33:29 2015, in response to Re: El remnants, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Wed Apr 29 18:56:00 2015. I don't know why those were never removed. They serve no structural purpose for the bridge. |
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| (1350223) | |
Re: El remnants |
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Posted by italianstallion on Wed Apr 29 23:35:13 2015, in response to Re: El remnants, posted by SLRT on Wed Apr 29 19:50:55 2015. As of last week when I drove by the kiosk is still there. |
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| (1350226) | |
Re: El remnants |
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Posted by Kevin from Midwood on Thu Apr 30 00:12:25 2015, in response to Re: El remnants, posted by SLRT on Wed Apr 29 19:50:55 2015. This feature is kind of buried, but if you mouse up and click the icon that resembles a clock, you can expose past and subsequent Street View captures. The most recent here is from October 2014. 
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| (1350231) | |
Re: El remnants |
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Posted by Express Rider on Thu Apr 30 01:18:54 2015, in response to Re: El remnants, posted by italianstallion on Wed Apr 29 23:33:29 2015. if they're not getting in bureaucrocy's way, hope they continue to be kept for (official or unofficial) heritage reasons....this remaining structure might have been left up in the first place due to contracts for el dismantling only pertaining to the structure that "encumbers" the area - the el structure covering 2nd avenue, and the adjacent manhattan side bridge plaza area; and the bridge itself - former row on the upper level becoming the inbound roadway. |
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| (1350239) | |
Re: El remnants |
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Posted by SUBWAYMAN on Thu Apr 30 03:27:32 2015, in response to El remnants, posted by Spider-Pig on Wed Apr 29 15:29:16 2015. The Former 3rd Ave El 99th St substation still survives. Here's a picture from 2008. The retaining wall for the former 99th Street shops still survives on 99th St.  
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| (1350241) | |
Re: El remnants |
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Posted by chud1 on Thu Apr 30 04:47:15 2015, in response to Re: El remnants, posted by SUBWAYMAN on Thu Apr 30 03:27:32 2015. A+ on these pictures.chud1. :)..... |
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| (1350243) | |
Re: El remnants |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu Apr 30 06:48:01 2015, in response to Re: El remnants, posted by Dave on Wed Apr 29 22:47:56 2015. Back in the day, they decided to sever the Culver from the BMT. Same at Ditmas Avenue, even though they built steelwork to keep the tracks connected.Likewise they changed the chaining from BMT C to IND B. They didn't do that on the Liberty Avenue Line. |
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| (1350244) | |
Re: El remnants |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu Apr 30 06:51:26 2015, in response to Re: El remnants, posted by Bob Andersen on Wed Apr 29 22:38:30 2015. Heh. |
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| (1350245) | |
Re: El remnants |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu Apr 30 06:52:54 2015, in response to Re: El remnants, posted by chud1 on Thu Apr 30 04:47:15 2015. No drool? |
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| (1350246) | |
Re: El remnants |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Apr 30 07:13:15 2015, in response to Re: El remnants, posted by The silence on Wed Apr 29 21:17:56 2015. Why limit ourselves? |
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| (1350263) | |
Re: El remnants |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu Apr 30 09:03:29 2015, in response to Re: El remnants, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Apr 30 07:13:15 2015. If we include BMT there are a world of remnants to explore, like the Race Track branch on the Brighton, or the bits of the Sea Beach right-of-way south of Coney Island yard. |
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| (1350268) | |
Re: El remnants |
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Posted by Bob Andersen on Thu Apr 30 09:47:42 2015, in response to Re: El remnants, posted by SLRT on Thu Apr 30 09:03:29 2015. Tell us about that last one - Sea Beach ROW south of CI yard. |
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| (1350269) | |
Re: El remnants |
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Posted by Q4 on Thu Apr 30 09:51:31 2015, in response to Re: El remnants, posted by 3-9 on Wed Apr 29 17:34:32 2015. There is (or was, I haven't checked in a several years) a substation on 99th and 3rd. I was told it was originally for the 3rd Ave. El. Can anyone confirm? |
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| (1350270) | |
Re: El remnants |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Apr 30 09:53:42 2015, in response to Re: El remnants, posted by SLRT on Thu Apr 30 09:03:29 2015. YES! I will post those remnants I know of, but will include "elevated subway" remnants to minimize confusion.
One thing I forgot from the Manhattan El list is: Some sections of PROW in South Bronx (between Harlem River and 149th) and a curved building where curve to 132nd street spur was located. An arguable example is the change in the column structure of the Gowanus Expressway south of 38th Street. Legend has it that the el columns were reused for the Gowanus Parkway, but I don't know if that's true. Regardless, 3rd Avenue south of 38th was not widened until the Parkway became an Expressway in preparation for the Verrazano Bridge opening. |
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| (1350275) | |
Re: El remnants |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu Apr 30 10:49:35 2015, in response to Re: El remnants, posted by Bob Andersen on Thu Apr 30 09:47:42 2015. This was the original right-of-way that the Sea Beach used until it began using West End Terminal in 1907 or so. The r-o-w remained for many years for freight. In the '60s the line existed west of the fence for Coney Island Yard, but now the yard has completely gobbled that up and then some.Each year there is less to see, but you may be able to see (if you have access). Some track crossing under Belt Parkway, rails caked with dirt last I looked; remnants of right of way running straight south, probably no rail but visible line with rotting ties, and (low tide only now) remnants of the Sea Beach Bridge across CI Creek; plus the little neck of land on the Coney side that received the bridge tracks. Here is the hunting ground (Copyright GoogleŽ Map): 
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| (1350276) | |
Re: El remnants |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Apr 30 10:53:38 2015, in response to Re: El remnants, posted by Bob Andersen on Wed Apr 29 17:20:56 2015. What is the story of that section? It's not necessary for structural reasons. I heard that it was to hold onto cables to a substation located at Lewis Avenue that was still used by the remaining lines, but is that still true? |
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| (1350277) | |
Re: El remnants |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu Apr 30 10:58:05 2015, in response to Re: El remnants, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Apr 30 10:53:38 2015. I've heard it would compromise the junction. It might be convenient for cables, but there are other options rather than keeping and maintaining that much iron. |
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| (1350279) | |
Re: El remnants |
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Posted by Jeff Rosen on Thu Apr 30 11:01:55 2015, in response to Re: El remnants, posted by Bob Andersen on Wed Apr 29 22:38:30 2015. Yeah but the original poster specifically said "Manhattan Els" which implied the IRT els. If you include Brooklyn there are numerous examples such as the BQE section that was once an el. |
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| (1350282) | |
Re: El remnants |
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Posted by Allan on Thu Apr 30 11:04:52 2015, in response to Re: El remnants, posted by Q4 on Thu Apr 30 09:51:31 2015. That substation is still there. The MTA uses it for electrical field offices. |
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| (1350283) | |
Re: El remnants |
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Posted by Allan on Thu Apr 30 11:05:39 2015, in response to Re: El remnants, posted by Allan on Wed Apr 29 19:27:10 2015. I meant E34th ST & 3rd Av not 33rd Av (sticky key on keyboard). |
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| (1350284) | |
Re: El remnants |
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Posted by Allan on Thu Apr 30 11:06:47 2015, in response to Re: El remnants, posted by Karl M, Ex New Yorker on Wed Apr 29 22:52:47 2015. Recently - no. It is totally fenced off. |
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| (1350285) | |
Re: El remnants |
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Posted by Allan on Thu Apr 30 11:08:02 2015, in response to Re: El remnants, posted by SLRT on Thu Apr 30 06:52:54 2015. He is saving it for the next exciting item. |
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| (1350290) | |
Re: El remnants |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Apr 30 11:36:54 2015, in response to Re: El remnants, posted by SLRT on Thu Apr 30 10:58:05 2015. It is possible that the cost of rerouting the cables underground, or replacing the structure with some ordinary utility poles, may cost more than the benefit from adding light to that short stretch of Myrtle, and the revenue from selling the scrap steel. The scrap steel market seems to be not so good right now, which is why the old trains were reefed and not scrapped. |
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| (1350291) | |
Re: El remnants |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Apr 30 11:51:26 2015, in response to Re: El remnants, posted by Allan on Thu Apr 30 11:06:47 2015. Notably it is not accessible. It is on an island surrounded by traffic and there are no crosswalks leading to it; pedestrians walking along the east side of 2nd Avenue must cross to the west side to pass the QB entrance. |
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| (1350294) | |
Re: El remnants |
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Posted by coneyisl on Thu Apr 30 12:20:54 2015, in response to Re: El remnants, posted by SLRT on Thu Apr 30 06:48:01 2015. I know I have the answer somewhere in the house, but IIRC it was a mad rush to disconnect the BMT from what had just become the IND due to it's recapture of the Culver line. In the end, I'm sure it was about money. Makes me wonder if dollars spent on the Culver lined were controlled to access West 8th lower level only. The connection between what is now the far western West End tracks was connected to the Culver line at one time too. At lease some flexibility for Brighton access to the yards was added back in when the extra Sea Beach track was connected to the Brighton Line when they rebuilt Stillwell Terminal!There were diamond crossovers between the express and local tracks south of Ocean Parkway allowing for all trains coming in and out to utilize either level of West 8th St. If the NX had come along with that infrastructure still in place, it might have actually be tenable to use Ocean Parkway as the southern Terminus. |
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| (1350297) | |
Re: El remnants |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu Apr 30 12:50:23 2015, in response to Re: El remnants, posted by coneyisl on Thu Apr 30 12:20:54 2015. I know I have the answer somewhere in the house, but IIRC it was a mad rush to disconnect the BMT from what had just become the IND due to it's recapture of the Culver line.No. There was no recapture. In 1954 the City owned both the BMT and IND. |
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| (1350298) | |
Re: El remnants |
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Posted by SLRT on Thu Apr 30 12:51:49 2015, in response to Re: El remnants, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Apr 30 11:51:26 2015. But it's still there. They can make it accessible in the future. |
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| (1350301) | |
Re: El remnants |
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Posted by terRAPIN station on Thu Apr 30 13:12:03 2015, in response to Re: El remnants, posted by Allan on Thu Apr 30 11:08:02 2015. Correction: He is saving it for the next item. He gets excited about plenty of things that aren't exciting. |
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| (1350302) | |
Re: El remnants |
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Posted by GIS Man on Thu Apr 30 13:17:16 2015, in response to Re: El remnants, posted by SLRT on Thu Apr 30 10:49:35 2015. When I lived on 82nd St. east of 18th Av. in Bensonhurst about 30 years ago, there was a tiny section of rail poking out from under the grass in front of the old (1628) New Utrecht Dutch Reformed Church. This was part of the original West End line on the surface.Bob |
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