SNOW Shutdowns

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SNOW Shutdowns
Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Jan 31 10:35:54 2015 edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Several years ago, January of 2011 to be exact, the LION proposed Snow Plan - 5. Him submit it to the MTA Inspector General. This is what LION wrote, more or less: Him identified areas at HIGH RISK. Call them "Red Stations" Him identified areas at RISK. Call them "Orange Stations" Him identified areas at LOW RICK. Call them "Yellow Stations" and Him identified areas that seemed to not be at Risk. Gall Them "Green Station" The invocation of Snow Plan Five is not up to the MTA, but rather it is up to the city in consultation with police, fire, sanitation, weather forecasters and city government. This plan provides for a staged shutdown of services as needed by changing weather conditions. This is in addition to the snow plans 1 through 4 operated by the MTA for its equipment and crews. This plan is specifically for the PUBLIC. The recent shutdown did work, but it did not suspend service in stages, but all at once. That is ok, the public now knows what to expect, and we know that Plan - 5 will work. In the event of pending weather conditions the public announcements might say that "RED STATIONS WILL CLOSE at 7:PM." Depending on conditions a further announcement can be broadcast saying; "ORANGE STATIONS WILL CLOSE AT 10:PM" And again if necessary, "SERVICE TO YELLOPW STATIONS will be suspended at 2AM." Announcements will indicate that GREEN STATIONS Will continue to operate with delays. Then individual Green Stations may need to be closed as certain conditions develop. Bus Routes will be suspended as conditions warrant, and the Department of Sanitation will attempt to clear "Emergency Bus Routes" first. The goal of such service is to be able to move the most numbers of people to operating Green Stations as possible. Special snow routes will have to be identified, and made known to the public as quickly as possible. The Department of Parks will likely have the right kinds of equipment to clear sidewalks of snow, so that people would be able to walk on the sidewalks to an operating bus stop even as the streets remain closed. It is presumed that sidewalks can be cleared more easily than streets since there will be no cars parked in the way. This is a Snow Control Plan, a Flood Control Plan is different since that will affect the Manhattan Trunks. People should listen to the radio and avoid transit during flood conditions. ROAR
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Re: SNOW Shutdowns
Posted by TUNNELRAT* on Sat Jan 31 10:40:21 2015, in response to SNOW Shutdowns, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Jan 31 10:35:54 2015.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d dyre ave.shuttle.
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Re: SNOW Shutdowns
Posted by Chris R16/R2730* on Sat Jan 31 10:42:17 2015, in response to SNOW Shutdowns, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Jan 31 10:35:54 2015.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d The problem with keeping part of the system open is that it will be overwhelmed by riders from closed sections of the system. Everyone will try to move, assuming others will take heed and stay home. Closing the entire system eliminates that variable. I like the idea of having an intermediate plan which ends service on the surface ROW's, like Brighton, Rockaway and Dyre Ave. You could probably get away with that.
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Re: SNOW Shutdowns
Posted by Andrew Saucci* on Sat Jan 31 11:11:32 2015, in response to SNOW Shutdowns, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Jan 31 10:35:54 2015.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Not a bad idea, except that the high risk stations may be different depending upon the situation. Lower Manhattan stations were at great risk in Sandy and Irene, even though they were underground. Some parts of the underground system have been known to flood somewhat unexpectedly in rain storms.
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Re: SNOW Shutdowns
Posted by j trainloco* on Sat Jan 31 11:13:05 2015, in response to SNOW Shutdowns, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Jan 31 10:35:54 2015.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d A couple of comments: General -I don't know that the city is the best one to determine when the subway shuts down, since, ya know, they don't actually have any experience with operating a railroad in winter weather. -any weather condition that resulted in the shutdown of elevated rail, or even at grade lines, would likely be far more detrimental to bus service. Specific: -how can the Culver elevated be yellow, but the rest of the Culver's IND segment is orange? I know that the Culver viaduct is a trouble spot, but if the cover viaduct shuts down, what useful service operates on the Culver el? -why is the west end line orange? Because of 9th avenue? -following your logic, I think that the 7 should be orange, since the structure over queens boulevard is a viaduct susceptible to snow accumulation. -why does the Broadway IRT turn yellow at 157th? -MTA went through this exercise, and identified the worst locations in the actual plan V that they currently have in place. The snow throwers are staged accordingly. The fact is that an extended shutdown is probably unneeded anywhere, a temporary shutdown to allow the throwers and deicers to make a run through is probably sufficient to resume service.
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Re: SNOW Shutdowns
Posted by Broadway Lion* on Sat Jan 31 12:12:04 2015, in response to Re: SNOW Shutdowns, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jan 31 10:42:17 2015.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d No, it would not. How would they get there in the first place. ROAR
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Re: SNOW Shutdowns
Posted by Broadway Lion* on Sat Jan 31 12:16:31 2015, in response to Re: SNOW Shutdowns, posted by j trainloco on Sat Jan 31 11:13:05 2015.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Obviously there would be some adjustments to what I have proposed. Obviously conditions on one line or in one place may shut that line down unexpectedly. that happens now. Live with it. Here in North Dakota we must decide when to close the interstates and other highways. Sometimes we tell people "No Travel is advised." Other times we say "No Travel is permitted." and we drag the gates across the roads. ROAR
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Re: SNOW Shutdowns
Posted by Joe V* on Sat Jan 31 12:20:00 2015, in response to SNOW Shutdowns, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Jan 31 10:35:54 2015.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d On the #7, the Queens Blvd portion should be higher risk than the Roosevelt av portion as snow would be caught on the ballasted concrete viaduct.
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Re: SNOW Shutdowns
Posted by Andrew Saucci* on Sat Jan 31 13:35:52 2015, in response to Re: SNOW Shutdowns, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Jan 31 12:16:31 2015.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d "Other times we say 'No Travel is permitted.' and we drag the gates across the roads." I suspect that many of the people who whine that mass transit was shut down have never seen an interstate with gates across the ramps. They need to get out more. In the Midwest such sights are common, and those gates are used. In some places, a particularly dangerous road is closed all winter.
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Re: SNOW Shutdowns
Posted by Fisk Ave Jim* on Sat Jan 31 14:01:29 2015, in response to Re: SNOW Shutdowns, posted by Andrew Saucci on Sat Jan 31 13:35:52 2015.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Heck, they got'em on several entrance ramps along I-84 in Dutchess Co. Lately, that road is among the first to get shut down in a snowstorm.
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Re: SNOW Shutdowns
Posted by Joe V* on Sat Jan 31 14:34:25 2015, in response to Re: SNOW Shutdowns, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Jan 31 12:16:31 2015.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d How many days a year does US2 get shut down ?
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Re: SNOW Shutdowns
Posted by Broadway Lion* on Sat Jan 31 14:49:22 2015, in response to Re: SNOW Shutdowns, posted by Joe V on Sat Jan 31 14:34:25 2015.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d I do not know, we live down on I-94, and we see maybe 5 days out of the year, but then we are in the banana belt of North Dakota, up on US 2 they will see more days, but that is not a limited access road, and so while it can be closed, people leak onto it all over the place. Smart folk stay home when it snows. ROAR
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Re: SNOW Shutdowns
Posted by Chris R16/R2730* on Sat Jan 31 15:20:33 2015, in response to Re: SNOW Shutdowns, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Jan 31 12:12:04 2015.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d If you run a partial service plan which shuts a considerable part of the system, you'll overwhelm what's left. You can get away with shutting down a small percentage, but not half. People are selfish. If I live in Bay Ridge and I take the N train, and I know the R train is running, I'm probably going to go to work. The R becomes overwhelmed.
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Re: SNOW Shutdowns
Posted by Dan Lawrence* on Sat Jan 31 15:21:50 2015, in response to SNOW Shutdowns, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Jan 31 10:35:54 2015.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Not a lot of snow in Baltimore today. Most was less than 1 inch fell and it could be removed with a broom!!!
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Re: SNOW Shutdowns
Posted by Dan Lawrence* on Sat Jan 31 15:23:03 2015, in response to SNOW Shutdowns, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Jan 31 10:35:54 2015.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Not a lot of snow in Baltimore today. Most was less than 1 inch fell and it could be removed with a broom!!!
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Re: SNOW Shutdowns
Posted by AlM* on Sat Jan 31 15:35:48 2015, in response to Re: SNOW Shutdowns, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jan 31 15:20:33 2015.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d No. A lot of people can work from home, a lot of people are given the day off, and a lot of people are happy to take the day off. The system is never overwhelmed when some lines are closed by snow. It may selectively be very crowded, but not overwhelmed.
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Re: SNOW Shutdowns
Posted by Fisk Ave Jim* on Sat Jan 31 15:49:34 2015, in response to Re: SNOW Shutdowns, posted by Joe V on Sat Jan 31 12:20:00 2015.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d "...On the #7, the Queens Blvd portion should be higher risk than the Roosevelt av portion..." Agreed. I got stuck on two separate occasions (in the 70s) on the hill between Rawson & Lowery sts. on a local that ran into a snowbank that covered the third rail. Lost power & all that goes with it (light & heat). After 2 hrs in the dark & cold & no communication (first occasion) we abandoned ship & walked on the snow covered catwalk to the Lowery St Sta. Folks in the first three cars were trapped a/c their barrel doors were frozen shut due to the high winds & blowing snow. Second time, after waiting about an hour, we were able to get a push.
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Re: SNOW Shutdowns
Posted by GOlD_12tH* on Sat Jan 31 15:52:21 2015, in response to Re: SNOW Shutdowns, posted by Dan Lawrence on Sat Jan 31 15:23:03 2015.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d who cares.
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Re: SNOW Shutdowns
Posted by GOlD_12tH* on Sat Jan 31 15:53:10 2015, in response to SNOW Shutdowns, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Jan 31 10:35:54 2015.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Culver line low risk, lol.
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Re: SNOW Shutdowns
Posted by zac* on Sat Jan 31 16:16:45 2015, in response to Re: SNOW Shutdowns, posted by AlM on Sat Jan 31 15:35:48 2015.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d If the snow was heavy enough to shut down the line, it was heavy enough to keep one from getting to the next nearest line. When they close the B/Q it is a loooonnnngggg walk to the F train.
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Re: SNOW Shutdowns
Posted by Wallyhorse* on Sat Jan 31 16:56:59 2015, in response to SNOW Shutdowns, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Jan 31 10:35:54 2015.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d The LION's plan was an EXCELLENT one. I remember you did it then and it was a near-perfect one that SHOULD have and EXACTLY HOW I would have implemented such during this more recent storm.
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Re: SNOW Shutdowns
Posted by Wallyhorse* on Sat Jan 31 16:57:56 2015, in response to Re: SNOW Shutdowns, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Jan 31 10:42:17 2015.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Which is basically what I would have done (closed the more vulnerable ROW's like in LION's plan. LION had it right.
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Re: SNOW Shutdowns
Posted by Wallyhorse* on Sat Jan 31 16:59:36 2015, in response to Re: SNOW Shutdowns, posted by zac on Sat Jan 31 16:16:45 2015.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Some people might be stupid, but MOST would heed the warnings. Most people KNOW when to go out and when not to unless absolutely necessary.
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Re: SNOW Shutdowns
Posted by Wallyhorse* on Sat Jan 31 17:03:29 2015, in response to Re: SNOW Shutdowns, posted by Andrew Saucci on Sat Jan 31 11:11:32 2015.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Sandy and Irene were two COMPLETELY different animals where the entire system HAD to be shut down as it turned out even if people (including me at the time) said otherwise. The MTA may have gotten away with it when Gloria (which WAS a Catergory 2 Hurricane) hit in 1985 and when Floyd hit in 1999, but Irene actually was a direct hit on NYC (and the MTA was very lucky that was only a Tropical Storm and not the Category 2 Hurricane it was forecast to be when the closure was announced) and we all know what Sandy did. This was a SNOWSTORM where the underground portions CAN RUN. MUCH DIFFERENT from a Sandy/Irene situation that absolutely requires a shutdown because flooding is much more of a threat than snow underground.
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Re: SNOW Shutdowns
Posted by FtGreeneG* on Sat Jan 31 20:18:21 2015, in response to SNOW Shutdowns, posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Jan 31 10:35:54 2015.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Not a bad idea at all.
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