POP doesn't work in Germany: States push for higher fines for farebeaters

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POP doesn't work in Germany: States push for higher fines for farebeaters
Posted by Olog-hai on Sat Nov 29 19:34:45 2014 edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Farebeating costs $436 million a year? Think of what could be saved by installing barriers. The Local Fare dodging could cost more in 2015 States are pushing the government to increase fines for people using public transport without a ticket from next year. Published: 28 Nov 2014 13:10 GMT+01:00 Travelers on Germany's public transport networks are familiar with the sight: as if from nowhere, plain-clothed ticket inspectors appear down the length of a carriage and start demanding tickets. Where other European countries make it impossible to board a train without buying a ticket — at least not without performing some impressive acrobatics over the barriers — Germany by and large relies on an honour system and travelers' sense of civic duty. But the random inspections serve to keep a lid on widespread fare dodging. That cry of “Fahrkarten, bitte!” could be more expensive for Schwarzfahrer (fare dodgers) from January 1^st if the government agrees to plans for higher fines from the Bundesrat, Germany's upper house of parliament. “We've advised state governments that the €40 amount doesn't have a proper connection to ticket prices anymore, which have risen since the regulations were written 12 years ago,” Lars Wagner, a spokesman for the Federation of German Transport Companies (VDV), told The Local. State representatives in the upper chamber are asking the federal government to change two regulations, allowing fines to rise to €60 and hopefully increasing their deterrent effect. That would bring German fines to a similar level to the UK, but still much lower than many other countries in Western Europe including Belgium (up to €200), France (up to €180) and Switzerland (up to €160). “This decision is a good signal for businesses and for all honest passengers,” VDV president Jürgen Fenske said. Transport Minister Alexander Dobrindt must now decide on whether to allow the change. His spokesman said that the government “wouldn't stand in the way if the Bundesrat made such a suggestion” when asked about the plans in October. The VDV estimates that between 3 and 3.5 percent of passengers don't bother buying a ticket every year, making up to 350 million unpaid journeys. That costs transport companies €250 million in lost revenue each year, plus a further €100 million on ticket inspectors and other measures to fight the problem.
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Re: POP doesn't work in Germany: States push for higher fines for farebeaters
Posted by WillD* on Sat Nov 29 20:03:27 2014, in response to POP doesn't work in Germany: States push for higher fines for farebeaters, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Nov 29 19:34:45 2014.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d So your solution is to have law enforcement more involved in fare collection? Police state advocate! And you of course know how many billions of Euros it'd cost to equip even a minority of DB's platforms with fare gates, right you ignorant fool?
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Re: POP doesn't work in Germany: States push for higher fines for farebeaters
Posted by Joe V* on Sat Nov 29 20:48:42 2014, in response to POP doesn't work in Germany: States push for higher fines for farebeaters, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Nov 29 19:34:45 2014.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Would it cost $436M to add sufficient staff to reduce dodging losses to zero ? If so, there is still no positive impact to the bottom line. It would cost $436M to collect $436M.
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Re: POP doesn't work in Germany: States push for higher fines for farebeaters
Posted by Olog-hai* on Sat Nov 29 20:50:38 2014, in response to Re: POP doesn't work in Germany: States push for higher fines for farebeaters, posted by Joe V on Sat Nov 29 20:48:42 2014.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Yes; breaking even is the best case scenario. Assuming that's all the losses incurred.
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Re: POP doesn't work in Germany: States push for higher fines for farebeaters
Posted by AlM* on Sat Nov 29 20:57:32 2014, in response to Re: POP doesn't work in Germany: States push for higher fines for farebeaters, posted by Joe V on Sat Nov 29 20:48:42 2014.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d There might however be a way of reducing losses by $200 million with additional expenses of $100 million.
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Re: POP doesn't work in Germany: States push for higher fines for farebeaters
Posted by Broadway Lion* on Sun Nov 30 08:05:23 2014, in response to POP doesn't work in Germany: States push for higher fines for farebeaters, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Nov 29 19:34:45 2014.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Told you so!
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Re: POP doesn't work in Germany: States push for higher fines for farebeaters
Posted by Joe V* on Sun Nov 30 09:25:01 2014, in response to Re: POP doesn't work in Germany: States push for higher fines for farebeaters, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Nov 29 20:50:38 2014.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d If you break even, why bother ? If incremental revenue exceeds incremental cost, then do it.
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Re: POP doesn't work in Germany: States push for higher fines for farebeaters
Posted by Nilet* on Mon Dec 1 05:42:50 2014, in response to POP doesn't work in Germany: States push for higher fines for farebeaters, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Nov 29 19:34:45 2014.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d How do you get from "it's not perfect" and "it may be possible to make improvements" to "the entire thing is irreparably broken, justifying a massive fortune being spent to replace the system wholesale?"
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Re: POP doesn't work in Germany: States push for higher fines for farebeaters
Posted by Transitbuff* on Mon Dec 1 15:04:59 2014, in response to Re: POP doesn't work in Germany: States push for higher fines for farebeaters, posted by WillD on Sat Nov 29 20:03:27 2014.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Their syatem is fahr-kakt!
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Re: POP doesn't work in Germany: States push for higher fines for farebeaters
Posted by Transitbuff* on Mon Dec 1 15:05:13 2014, in response to Re: POP doesn't work in Germany: States push for higher fines for farebeaters, posted by WillD on Sat Nov 29 20:03:27 2014.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Their system is fahr-kakt!
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Re: POP doesn't work in Germany: States push for higher fines for farebeaters
Posted by WillD* on Mon Dec 1 16:31:33 2014, in response to Re: POP doesn't work in Germany: States push for higher fines for farebeaters, posted by Nilet on Mon Dec 1 05:42:50 2014.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Because he's the Ignorant Ideo-Olog, that's how.
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POP doesn't work in Germany: Fines rise from €40 to €60 in select cities, enforcement increases
Posted by Olog-hai* on Tue Jun 30 15:47:37 2015, in response to POP doesn't work in Germany: States push for higher fines for farebeaters, posted by Olog-hai on Sat Nov 29 19:34:45 2014.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d The Local (with Deutsche Press-Agentur) Fare-dodging fine jumps from €40 to €60 Published: 30 Jun 2015 16:02 GMT+02:00 Nationwide fines for people who ride public transit without a proper ticket will increase from €40 ($44.59) to €60 ($66.88) starting on Wednesday in some cities, the first time the penalty has been increased in 12 years. Berliners and Stuttgarters who ride public transit without a ticket or without a properly stamped one will be among the first to face heightened fines starting on Wednesday as an initiative to crack down on violators rolls out nationwide. Hamburg, Munich and the Rhine-Ruhr area (which includes Düsseldorf and Cologne) will make the change in August. Deutsche Bahn also said it will increase the fine starting August 1^st for regional, long-distance and S-Bahn trains. “Fare-dodging on buses and trains should not be worth it,” said Transport Minister Alexander Dobrindt. Transit companies lose €250 million ($279 million) each year due to fare-dodging, according to the Association of German Transport Companies (VDV). The association also estimates that 3.5 percent of bus- and train-riders travel without a ticket. While the association has advocated for further regulations to impose steeper fines on repeat offenders, others have argued that increasing fees may target the wrong people and that often the rules are not forgiving of those who truly did not understand what was the right ticket to buy. “You must try to distinguish in some way between people who intentionally and regularly dodge fares, and those who made a mistake at the ticket machine,” said honourary chairman of passenger association Pro Bahn Karl-Peter Naumann. “It is increasingly the case that inspectors do not understand what fairness is.” Pro Bahn and the Federation of German Consumer Organizations have said that a sliding scale of fines would be more effective. In extreme cases in certain states, some fare-dodgers may land in jail, but consumer protection agencies say this is the wrong way to address the problem. Though a spokesman from VDV acknowledged that there can be a gray area in determining fare-dodgers’ intentions, but that it can be hard to judge for ticket inspectors who have heard every excuse. “Some 97 to 98 percent of our customers are honest, and you have to see it from their point of view,” said transport company association spokesman Lars Wagner. “The honest ones will at some point have to pay what others do not pay, through the ticket price.” Then dump the POP system. It's clearly costing more money.
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RE: POP doesn't work in Germany: Fines rise from €40 to €60 in select cities, enforcement increases
Posted by fdtutf on Tue Jun 30 17:01:09 2015, in response to POP doesn't work in Germany: Fines rise from €40 to €60 in select cities, enforcement increases, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Jun 30 15:47:37 2015. edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Those fines are pretty cheap. In Stockholm the current fine for traveling without a valid ticket is SEK 1,200, which is USD 144.64 at today's exchange rate (says Google). (Stockholm also doesn't have POP on most of its lines. It sounds to me as if the fines in Germany need to be raised significantly for POP to work.)
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Re: POP works in Germany: Fines rise from €40 to €60 in select cities, enforcement increases
Posted by WillD on Tue Jun 30 17:04:21 2015, in response to POP doesn't work in Germany: Fines rise from €40 to €60 in select cities, enforcement increases, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Jun 30 15:47:37 2015. edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Your conclusion does not follow from the article. How does an increase in fines for non-payment mean the POP system is not working? The Euro is way down, almost equal in value to the dollar, so it's much more likely that fines set 5 to 8 years ago aren't as effective at deterring fare evasion as they are now. Raising the fine brings back the deterrent. That's true for all fare collection strategies, be they barrier, conductor collected, or proof of payment.
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Re: POP doesn't work in Germany: Fines rise from €40 to €60 in select cities, enforcement increases
Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Jun 30 18:02:13 2015, in response to Re: POP works in Germany: Fines rise from €40 to €60 in select cities, enforcement increases, posted by WillD on Tue Jun 30 17:04:21 2015. edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d How does an increase in fines for non-payment mean the POP system is not working? You may not realize it, but you answered your own question. But then again, you're a statist, so increasing the punishment means increasing the good for the State, rather like O'Brien from 1984.
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Re: POP works in Germany: Fines rise from €40 to €60 in select cities, enforcement increases
Posted by WillD on Tue Jun 30 18:27:00 2015, in response to Re: POP doesn't work in Germany: Fines rise from €40 to €60 in select cities, enforcement increases, posted by Olog-hai on Tue Jun 30 18:02:13 2015. edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d You may not realize it, but you answered your own question. It may answer that question if you're an ignorant royalist out of touch with reality. But for everyone else it doesn't, just as your conclusion does not follow from the article. Nowhere in the article does it say anything about POP not working, and fdtutf was kind enough to point out just how low Germany's fines for non-payment are. You're the one making the claim POP does not work, without any evidence to support your claim. But then again, you're a statist, so increasing the punishment means increasing the good for the State, So it's your claim that no enforcement is necessary to get passengers to pay with either a barrier or conductor collected fare arrangement? Everyone is so thrilled to hand their money over that there's never anyone arrested or fined on an NJT train or at a NYCT fare gate, right? You're the biggest statist on this board, yet somehow you make the completely counterfactual claim that POP results in any more "statist" a society than any other fare collection method.
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