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| CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass (1286341) | |
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| (1286341) | |
CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass |
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Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Fri Apr 18 08:17:24 2014 Story here. |
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Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Apr 18 08:35:23 2014, in response to CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass, posted by ChicagoMotorman on Fri Apr 18 08:17:24 2014. This could never happen in NYC. |
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Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass |
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Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Fri Apr 18 09:23:54 2014, in response to Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Apr 18 08:35:23 2014. I thought it has. Virtually every juntion on the New York subway/elevated are fly over junctions. |
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Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Apr 18 09:28:47 2014, in response to Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass, posted by ChicagoMotorman on Fri Apr 18 09:23:54 2014. I meant today. |
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Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass |
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Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Fri Apr 18 09:30:05 2014, in response to Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Apr 18 09:28:47 2014. O h, ok. How many flat juntions are there in New York? |
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Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass |
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Posted by andy on Fri Apr 18 12:08:15 2014, in response to Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass, posted by ChicagoMotorman on Fri Apr 18 09:30:05 2014. Only one that immediately comes to mind is Broadway and Myrtle Avenue in Brooklyn, where the J/Z and M lines converge and diverge. |
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Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Apr 18 12:28:50 2014, in response to Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Apr 18 08:35:23 2014. Needs to be done. Given how much urban carnage there has been for stupid highways, this is a far better thing. |
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| (1286391) | |
Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass |
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Posted by Michael549 on Fri Apr 18 13:02:29 2014, in response to Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass, posted by andy on Fri Apr 18 12:08:15 2014. There are two other flat junctions:1) On the #2 and #3 lines on Lenox Avenue about 142nd Street where the two tracks of the #2 from the Bronx, meet the two tracks of the #3 from 145th Street. There Manhattan-bound #2 trains block the path of 148th Street-bound #3 trains, and vice-versa. 2) on the #1 line just south of the Rector Street station, where the two tracks that head to the newer 2-track South Ferry terminal of the #1 (yes, the one that was flooded by Hurricane SAndy), meets the two tracks that lead to the old South Ferry loop station of the #1. While generally speaking both the loop terminal and two-track stub terminal were not in operation at the same time, such a scenario is not impossible. Mike |
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| (1286393) | |
Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass |
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Posted by The silence on Fri Apr 18 13:04:50 2014, in response to Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass, posted by ChicagoMotorman on Fri Apr 18 09:30:05 2014. Strictly speaking, there are two with a third possibleMyrtle Broadway 2 and 3 under Lennox ave And possibly the Hammels wye could count, but it's not used in day to day service, along with a few other oddballs. |
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Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass |
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Posted by Randyo on Fri Apr 18 13:16:37 2014, in response to Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass, posted by Michael549 on Fri Apr 18 13:02:29 2014. Until around 1952, there was a flat junction N/O 177 ST/ West Farms on the Wh Pl Rd Line. 7 Av trains went to the Bx Pk station and Lex trains went around the S curve into E 180 St and up Wh Pl Rd. |
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Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass |
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Posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Apr 18 13:42:43 2014, in response to CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass, posted by ChicagoMotorman on Fri Apr 18 08:17:24 2014. Y type flat junctions should not reduce capacity or create congestion. The key is to synchronize the schedule through the junction so that trains in both directions operate to/from the same branch at the same time.If NYC is any example, flying junctions will still be a source of congestion. |
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| (1286401) | |
Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass |
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Posted by Randyo on Fri Apr 18 14:23:39 2014, in response to Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass, posted by Stephen Bauman on Fri Apr 18 13:42:43 2014. The problem with Clark Jct is that there are 3 services that utilize the junction, the Brown, the Red and the Purple. If you have ever done scheduling which I have, you will find that the volume of trains operated is dictated by the passenger carrying needs and it can be difficult if not impossible to schedule trains that finely through any merge point. That is why holds at interlockings between stations often have to be scheduled in order to clear other service. Also unusual delays to service need to be taken into consideration and even the best schedule can be disrupted by either a mechanical condition or problems involving passengers. Mention was not made of either Tower 12 (Van Buren and Wabash) or Tower 18 (Lake and Wells) which at one time was reputed to be the busiest railroad junction in the world. Neither of those junctions can be reasonably rebuilt into flying junctions due to the complexity of services operating through them so the CTA will have to live with those. |
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| (1286405) | |
Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass |
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Posted by Q4 on Fri Apr 18 14:52:00 2014, in response to Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Apr 18 12:28:50 2014. The Cross Bronx Expressway being one example of razed neighborhoods ("urban carnage")for a highway. |
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Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Apr 18 15:35:36 2014, in response to Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass, posted by Randyo on Fri Apr 18 14:23:39 2014. This is a first chapter of some version of complete rebuild/upgrade of the North Side Main all the way to Howard. The concrete embankment is 98 years old and "holding" barely. If they do it right we will get a higher speed express service than anytime in 3 or m0ore decades and even the all stop Red trains could easily be faster. In the bargain all of the stations will become ADA accessible which also benefits parents w/prams and anyone w/rolling luggage. |
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| (1286411) | |
Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Apr 18 15:38:52 2014, in response to Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass, posted by Jackson Park B Train on Fri Apr 18 15:35:36 2014. The next shoe may well be the way too tight curves @ Sheridan Road. |
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| (1286412) | |
Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Apr 18 17:00:48 2014, in response to Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass, posted by Randyo on Fri Apr 18 13:16:37 2014. But there's nothing in NYC that has one line crossing the other at grade completely (as opposed to a diverging route on one side). The only place I can think of which had one was WAY back in the day when the Old Main Line crossed over the Myrtle Ave el at Grand Ave between Lex and Park. |
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Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass |
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Posted by Randyo on Fri Apr 18 17:31:21 2014, in response to Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Apr 18 17:00:48 2014. Good point. Except for the one you mentioned, I don't think we ever did. |
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| (1286417) | |
Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Apr 18 17:38:38 2014, in response to CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass, posted by ChicagoMotorman on Fri Apr 18 08:17:24 2014. How many building did they take out for :Addison (some years ago) Belmont Fullerton station rebuilding ? How many will they for Wilson ? |
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Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Apr 18 17:46:57 2014, in response to Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass, posted by Randyo on Fri Apr 18 17:31:21 2014. Now that I think about it, the 5th used to cross the Myrtle at grade when it had it's own terminal on Hudson St. |
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| (1286429) | |
Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass |
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Posted by Michael549 on Fri Apr 18 18:28:46 2014, in response to Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass, posted by Q4 on Fri Apr 18 14:52:00 2014. Actually there are plenty of examples of razed neighborhoods:- for urban renewal projects (Lincoln Center, many housing projects and middle-income developments; - for economic development like the WTC; - for highways like the East River Drive; - for parks - Central Park - Seneca Village; - for building government centers - try to find Five Points; - for airport expansion, transportation, and several other usages. Mike |
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Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass |
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Posted by chicagomotorman on Fri Apr 18 18:59:57 2014, in response to Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass, posted by Michael549 on Fri Apr 18 13:02:29 2014. So the junctions in New York subways are also flyovers? |
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| (1286439) | |
Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass |
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Posted by chicagomotorman on Fri Apr 18 19:09:19 2014, in response to Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass, posted by Michael549 on Fri Apr 18 13:02:29 2014. So the junctions in New York subways are also flyovers? |
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| (1286441) | |
Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass |
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Posted by R30A on Fri Apr 18 19:19:36 2014, in response to Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass, posted by chicagomotorman on Fri Apr 18 18:59:57 2014. There aren't that many elevated junctions. Really just Rockaway Boulevard, Myrtle Broadway, and Broadway Junction. 2 of the 3 are grade separated, |
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| (1286445) | |
Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass |
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Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Fri Apr 18 20:01:33 2014, in response to Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass, posted by R30A on Fri Apr 18 19:19:36 2014. What about Queensborough Plaza? |
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Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass |
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Posted by R30A on Fri Apr 18 20:15:39 2014, in response to Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass, posted by ChicagoMotorman on Fri Apr 18 20:01:33 2014. No longer a junction. 7 stays on the south side, N/Q on the north. There is a diamond crossover, but only on the NB level. |
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| (1286451) | |
Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass |
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Posted by andy on Fri Apr 18 21:19:04 2014, in response to Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass, posted by R30A on Fri Apr 18 19:19:36 2014. Also on the IRT north of E 180th where the Dyre Ave. splits from the WP Road Line, which is of course grade separated both ways. |
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| (1286461) | |
Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass |
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Posted by andy on Fri Apr 18 21:52:43 2014, in response to Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass, posted by R30A on Fri Apr 18 19:19:36 2014. Also, the IRT #1 at 207th Street where there is a track connection into the 207th Street Shops. It's a flat junction coming from the north. Even northbound trains accessing it must first change direction. Of course it is not a revenue move so probably doesn't count in this discussion. |
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Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass |
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Posted by GojiMet86 on Sat Apr 19 00:41:02 2014, in response to Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass, posted by Michael549 on Fri Apr 18 13:02:29 2014. I would consider the junction at Junius Street on the New Lots Avenue Line, where the middle track crosses over the New Lots-bound track, to also be a flat junction. |
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Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass |
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Posted by Michael549 on Sat Apr 19 03:33:58 2014, in response to Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass, posted by R30A on Fri Apr 18 19:19:36 2014. In NYC there are some very "interesting" train yard connections that are track switch junctions with converging and diverging tracks, but usually the listings considers those that are in passenger service.As for elevated flying junctions - any short listing would have to include Queensborough Plaza, the Broadway Junction massive trackage, East 180th Street, and the A-train in the Rockaways - Hammels Wye, as well as the connection to the former LIRR trackage near Rockaway Blvd. Some of the train yard junctions such as 111th Street and Wilets Point on the Flushing line, or the Westchester Square train yard track connections, the train yard connection 238th Street on #2 and #5 lines, among the ones that can be quickly named. Several of the train yard connections are flat junctions, a quick listing would include the #1 train yard connection, the #4 train yard connection, the L-train yard in Canarsie, the D-train at Bay 50th Street, or the F-train at Avenue X, Of the older no longer existing junctions - honorable mention has to go the flying junction on the #4 line between 167th and 161th Streets for the Ninth Avenue El; on the #2 & #5 lines outside of the 149th Street-Third Avenue station for a connection to the Third Avenue EL, the massive Queensborough Plaza complex that includes both BMT & IRT sections and associated trackage; the massive Atlantic AVenue junction that included track for the Fulton Street El, the flat junction and former train yard that connected near the West Farms Station on the #2 and #5 lines; the massive Polo Grounds complex of trackage for the Ninth Avenue EL; the connection at 59th Street for the Second Avenue EL and its Queens bound trackage; the track connection between the Sixth and Ninth Avenue EL trackage for the 53rd Street routing as well as the track connection for the 57th Street-Sixth terminal; and I'm sure that there are few other junctions (flying or flat) that I've missed on the elevated lines that no longer exist. Mike |
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Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Apr 19 03:36:53 2014, in response to Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass, posted by Michael549 on Sat Apr 19 03:33:58 2014. Unless they've yanked it all out, Gunhill on the 2/5 which lead to the 3rd Avenue el was there too. |
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Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass |
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Posted by Randyo on Sat Apr 19 03:47:46 2014, in response to Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Apr 18 17:46:57 2014. That's the same one you mentioned. |
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| (1286493) | |
Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass |
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Posted by Randyo on Sat Apr 19 03:49:54 2014, in response to Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Apr 19 03:36:53 2014. The Gun Hill one is long gone. |
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| (1286494) | |
Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass |
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Posted by Randyo on Sat Apr 19 03:51:20 2014, in response to Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass, posted by chicagomotorman on Fri Apr 18 19:09:19 2014. All of the NY subway junctions are flying junctions with the exception of Bway/Myrtle and 142 St/Lenox. |
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| (1286495) | |
Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass |
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Posted by Randyo on Sat Apr 19 03:53:48 2014, in response to Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass, posted by GojiMet86 on Sat Apr 19 00:41:02 2014. True, but it is not used for revenue moves, only work trains. There are a few other so called flat junctions that are used only for moves in and out of yards but since passenger trains take precedence over yard moves, the impact on service is negligible. |
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Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Apr 19 06:52:55 2014, in response to Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass, posted by Randyo on Sat Apr 19 03:47:46 2014. No, those were different. The Lex crossed the Myrtle at grade at Grand on it's way to Park. The 5th crossed the Myrtle at grade at Hudson on it's way to it's old terminal. All of this disappeared before 1900, though. |
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Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass |
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Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Sat Apr 19 09:00:35 2014, in response to Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass, posted by R30A on Fri Apr 18 20:15:39 2014. I stand corrected. |
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Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass |
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Posted by ChicagoMotorman on Sat Apr 19 09:03:21 2014, in response to Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass, posted by Randyo on Sat Apr 19 03:51:20 2014. Thank you. |
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Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Apr 19 12:35:54 2014, in response to Re: CTA: 16 buildings need to be razed for Belmont 'L' overpass, posted by Randyo on Sat Apr 19 03:49:54 2014. Ah ... |
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