|
|
| Bellmouths and tunnel expansions (503663) | |
 |
|
| Home > SubChat | |
[ Post a New Response | Return to the Index ]
|
|
Page 1 of 6 |
|
|
| (503663) | |
Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
|
|
Posted by G1Ravage on Wed Oct 17 02:42:24 2007 Now that I've had a chance to explore the B Division up close a bit more, I've spotted some things I want explanations for.-Track T2 of the 63rd Street Tunnel (F) line, between 21 Street - Queensbridge and 36 Street. Heading northbound from 21 Street, the tracks suddenly curve sharply to the left. Looking out the window to the right, it appears as though the tunnel was built for the track to continue straight for a considerable distance. Was the 63rd Street Tunnel originally supposed to go elsewhere, rather than just connect to the Queens Boulevard Line? -The 4 Avenue Line in Brooklyn, between 59 Street and Bay Ridge Avenue. Was the tunnel there originally built to support a 4-track line? After the Sea Beach tracks go down south of 59 Street, the 4 Avenue tracks sharply come in on themselves, as if taking the place of "express" tracks. In the tunnel approaching Bay Ridge Avenue, there's a place where you can briefly see out of the tunnel to the outside. Though under the street, you're actually on a bridge going over some freight tracks (the same tracks that run alongside the (N) at 8 Avenue). While looking out through this opening, you can see that right next to you looks to be the support structure for a "local" track on either side. -Track G1 (lol), just north of Fifth Avenue - 59 Street. Not a tunnel, but a walkway or hallway of some sort, going away perpendicular from the tracks toward some back area. Looks pretty long, and it's gated off. What's back there? I may think of more later. |
|
|
| (503664) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
|
|
Posted by Michael549 on Wed Oct 17 03:24:09 2007, in response to Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by G1Ravage on Wed Oct 17 02:42:24 2007. The 63rd Street tunnel was to connect directly to the Queens Super-Express, a set of connecting tunnels and rail line between the 63rd Street tunnel and the Archer Avenue subway line. The city's 1970's fiscal crisis, the NIMBY actions by Queens politicians and residents, and funding cut-off by the federal gov't - all contributed to the killing of the Queens Super-Express route.The provision for such a connection remains in case the needed funding is obtained. The bridge that you speak of concerning the R-route was created to hold 4-tracks even though only 2 are used. There were several plans for the 4th Avenue subway in southern Brooklyn. Some of those plans involved a planned (but abandoned) connection to the Staten Island rail lines. Many buildings in the Midtown and Financial business districts have a set of underground passageways and tunnels (these tunnels are not for rail transit though). Some of these passageways connect to the subway system. Many are used for the water/utility connections, steam pipe system, other systems for the use of the buildings and other uses. |
|
|
| (503669) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
|
|
Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Wed Oct 17 05:57:11 2007, in response to Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by G1Ravage on Wed Oct 17 02:42:24 2007. After the Sea Beach tracks go down south of 59 Street, the 4 Avenue tracks sharply come in on themselves, as if taking the place of "express" tracks.IINM, they actually take the place of the southbound tracks -- i.e. they're entirely under the west side of 4th Av. Yes, the gap was for two extra tracks, and, yes, 86th St is half an express station! |
|
|
(Sponsored) |
iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
|
| (503699) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
|
|
Posted by trainsarefun on Wed Oct 17 08:27:26 2007, in response to Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by G1Ravage on Wed Oct 17 02:42:24 2007. 63rd St Tunnel on the Manhattan side also has provision for a connection to SAS, should that ever be required for an interesting route coming off Queens Blvd. Unlikely to ever see much use, though, given the congestion on the Queens IND line. (To be sure, there's room for trains on the local track, but seeing how they terminate trains at Forest Hills, it's kind of incredible to think). |
|
|
| (503720) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
|
|
Posted by Howard Fein on Wed Oct 17 10:09:12 2007, in response to Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by G1Ravage on Wed Oct 17 02:42:24 2007. If you've worked the R or overnight N, you may have noticed a noticeable indentation on the right-hand side tunnel wall after departing Whitehall heading into Montague tube. Could that have been for a projected Manhattan-Staten Island tube? The angle seems to indicate it would pass between the Whitehall and Governor's Island ferry terminals, so it's inconclusive.Not really a bellmouth, but there's a very noticeable setback in the Queensbound wall at the extreme southern end of City Hall. It may indicate that the BMT Broadway Line was intended to continue due south on Broadway rather than curving west under Saint Pauls Church and south to follow Trinity Place. But by 1908 the East Side IRT already occupied Broadway below Park Row/Vesey Street, a mere two blocks south. This was several years before the BMT was built along Broadway. There was also some speculation that the IND Hudson Terminal stub was intended to tie in what is now the aforementioned Trinity/Montague line. They line up perfectly immediately to the west of what is now Ground Zero, with only a few feet separating the northernmost uptown entrance of the now-closed Cortlandt Street station and the southernmost entrance to the Chambers/WTC/Park Place complex. |
|
|
| (503722) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
|
|
Posted by Fytton on Wed Oct 17 10:17:19 2007, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Howard Fein on Wed Oct 17 10:09:12 2007. 'There was also some speculation that the IND Hudson Terminal stub was intended to tie in what is now the aforementioned Trinity/Montague line. They line up perfectly immediately to the west of what is now Ground Zero'Don't you mean immediately *east* ? |
|
|
| (503725) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
|
|
Posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Oct 17 10:21:33 2007, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Howard Fein on Wed Oct 17 10:09:12 2007. Not really a bellmouth, but there's a very noticeable setback in the Queensbound wall at the extreme southern end of City Hall. It may indicate that the BMT Broadway Line was intended to continue due south on Broadway rather than curving west under Saint Pauls Church and south to follow Trinity Place.No, IIRC, this is a result of the original plan for the upper level to terminate there and through trains to use the lower level. LINK |
|
|
| (503734) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
|
|
Posted by Howard Fein on Wed Oct 17 10:50:02 2007, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Fytton on Wed Oct 17 10:17:19 2007. Oops! Yes, east. |
|
|
| (503738) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
|
|
Posted by Broadway Lion on Wed Oct 17 11:06:14 2007, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Oct 17 10:21:33 2007. Yes. The upper level was served by the local tracks and the lower level was served by the express tracks. When BMT (BRT) got the rights to Fourth Avenue (Brooklyn) over the IRT, the express tracks were diverted to the Manhattan Bridge.ROAR |
|
|
| (503754) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
|
|
Posted by Michael549 on Wed Oct 17 12:39:01 2007, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Broadway Lion on Wed Oct 17 11:06:14 2007. Ride along the R-train or the W-train south toward Whitehall Street. After passing the Prince Street station, you will notice a set of cross-over switches between the local and express tracks. The express tracks decline to a lower level, and curve into Canal Street. The Canal Street tunnel was originally designed to follow along under Canal Street, and the tunnel extends about 100 feet or more past the curve that N and Q trains use to enter the station. Of course, the N and Q express tracks travel over the Manhattan Bridge, and yes those tracks were reconfigured for the Chrystie Street set of improvements.Anyway on the local R and W trains, continue to look out of the windows. Just at the entrance to the Canal Street local station, a second set of "express tracks" appear. After leaving the local station, a set of switches between the local and express tracks appear as the express tracks decline and a set of switches between the express tracks appear. Often these tracks are covered by out-of-service W trains. These express tracks decline to a lower level under the City Hall Station to an unfinished set of platforms and three tracks. At the usual City Hall Platform, near the north end of the station before the Tower Room, there is a stairway to the lower level. Along the wall to the Tower Room is a plaque noting the original existence of Ely Beach's original pneumantic subway - the city's very first subway - well before the IRT - which this station replaced. As the downtown local trains enter the City Hall station you will notice that the tracks sharply move to the left, and then the right. If you are quick enough you will notice that the concrete floor has a pattern for a switch. Yes, that was where the diamond switch between the local tracks would have appeared if that upper level station had remained a terminal. Some of that area has been filled in by station expansion. Since it was the lower level express tracks that were originally to continue to lower Manhattan and Brooklyn, the tracks on the upper level have to quickly decline and go through a serious "S" curve to get to the Cortlandt Street station. Hope this helps. Mike |
|
|
| (503764) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
|
|
Posted by G1Ravage on Wed Oct 17 13:58:36 2007, in response to Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by G1Ravage on Wed Oct 17 02:42:24 2007. If you've worked the R or overnight N, you may have noticed a noticeable indentation on the right-hand side tunnel wall after departing Whitehall heading into Montague tube.Ah, I knew there was another one I'd forgotten. Thanks to Howard for helping me remember. Leaving Whitehall Street - South Ferry southbound into the Montague Street Tunnel, you start curving sharply to the left. Before you get to the junction with the Nassau Street Line, if you look to the right, you'll see what looks like a large opening in the tunnel, that's deep enough as though there's a track coming up from some lower level. When I first saw it, I thought it was the Nassau track coming up to join the tunnel, but then I remembered that the Nassau track joins from the left, not the right. And in any case, the Nassau connection is past the curve, further down the tunnel. So what we have is some large, lower space to the right of the train as it's going through the curve. This might be hard to see from an (R) train (unless you're lucky catch an R-32), so you should ride at the front of an R-40 (W) train around 8:50 PM, when the last three southbound (W) trains go through to Brooklyn. |
|
|
| (503785) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
|
|
Posted by Broadway Lion on Wed Oct 17 15:37:47 2007, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by G1Ravage on Wed Oct 17 13:58:36 2007. That is where they parked the tunnel drilling machine.ROAR |
|
|
| (503786) | |
Pictures of Bay Ridge Bridge Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
|
|
Posted by Clayton on Wed Oct 17 15:52:15 2007, in response to Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by G1Ravage on Wed Oct 17 02:42:24 2007. Here are some photos from inside the impressive yet creepy Bay Ridge bridge...
|
|
|
| (503814) | |
Re: Pictures of Bay Ridge Bridge Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
|
|
Posted by TunnelRat on Wed Oct 17 17:02:57 2007, in response to Pictures of Bay Ridge Bridge Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Clayton on Wed Oct 17 15:52:15 2007. Hey spidey,my son,my son.any evidence of a bellmout at either end?to answer the question on the whitehall st.bellmouth.NO!the bellmouth was built as a possible dekalb ave.bypass using the old lirr[bob diamond]atlantic ave tunnel,or using another street[stupid] |
|
|
| (503818) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
|
|
Posted by TunnelRat on Wed Oct 17 17:07:46 2007, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Terrapin Station on Wed Oct 17 10:21:33 2007. That setback was the original beach pnumatic subway,just as it turned& terminated at b`way. |
|
|
| (503848) | |
Re: Pictures of Bay Ridge Bridge Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
|
|
Posted by Clayton on Wed Oct 17 18:16:08 2007, in response to Re: Pictures of Bay Ridge Bridge Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by TunnelRat on Wed Oct 17 17:02:57 2007. Nope, just brick walls from what I remember. |
|
|
| (503922) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
|
|
Posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Wed Oct 17 19:22:13 2007, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by G1Ravage on Wed Oct 17 13:58:36 2007. IINM, there was some long-range BMT plan to use the existing Rathole for Nassau Loop service, and build extra tunnels for Broadway. |
|
|
| (504088) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
|
|
Posted by (X) 2nd Avenue Local on Thu Oct 18 00:03:11 2007, in response to Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by G1Ravage on Wed Oct 17 02:42:24 2007. Track T2 of the 63rd Street Tunnel (F) line, between 21 Street - Queensbridge and 36 Street. Heading northbound from 21 Street, the tracks suddenly curve sharply to the left. Looking out the window to the right, it appears as though the tunnel was built for the track to continue straight for a considerable distance. Was the 63rd Street Tunnel originally supposed to go elsewhere, rather than just connect to the Queens Boulevard Line?The tunnel leading straight ahead away from the curve was the original alignment of the 63rd Street connector before it was connected to the Queens Blvd. You can see where the Southbound track dead ended (track T1) along the curve on Track T2, an alcove like area off of the concrete catwalk. The straightway track, which was originally planned for the Queens Super Express, was intended to go under Sunnyside yards, and eventually end up either beneath the LIRR mainline or use the ROW to construct a dedicated track for subway service, I don't recall which, but it would've connected with the Queens Blvd Line east of Forest Hills. The 4 Avenue Line in Brooklyn, between 59 Street and Bay Ridge Avenue. Was the tunnel there originally built to support a 4-track line? After the Sea Beach tracks go down south of 59 Street, the 4 Avenue tracks sharply come in on themselves, as if taking the place of "express" tracks. In the tunnel approaching Bay Ridge Avenue, there's a place where you can briefly see out of the tunnel to the outside. Though under the street, you're actually on a bridge going over some freight tracks (the same tracks that run alongside the (N) at 8 Avenue). While looking out through this opening, you can see that right next to you looks to be the support structure for a "local" track on either side. From previous posts made on this board, a while back, yes, there was a provision for a 4 track subway between 59th Street and 86th Street. The current local tracks to 95th Street are actually the southound local (current southbound track) and express (current northbound) tracks. That was supposedly the reason why the northbound platforms at Bay Ridge Ave, and 77th Street have no pillars, as it was built as a temporary platform. |
|
|
| (504110) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
|
|
Posted by G1Ravage on Thu Oct 18 02:48:38 2007, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Broadway Lion on Wed Oct 17 15:37:47 2007. And they left it on? ;-) |
|
|
| (504111) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
|
|
Posted by G1Ravage on Thu Oct 18 02:51:58 2007, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by (X) 2nd Avenue Local on Thu Oct 18 00:03:11 2007. That was supposedly the reason why the northbound platforms at Bay Ridge Ave, and 77th Street have no pillars, as it was built as a temporary platform.I never noticed!! I'll keep an eye out the next time I'm working the (R). |
|
|
| (504113) | |
Re: Pictures of Bay Ridge Bridge Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
|
|
Posted by G1Ravage on Thu Oct 18 02:55:45 2007, in response to Pictures of Bay Ridge Bridge Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Clayton on Wed Oct 17 15:52:15 2007. Very cool. Can't see such details from the C/R cab. |
|
|
| (504172) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
|
|
Posted by Howard Fein on Thu Oct 18 08:24:46 2007, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Kew Gardens Teleport on Wed Oct 17 05:57:11 2007. Yes, I discovered that some years ago. Aware of the brief exposure of the subway tracks, I went on foot to the east side of 4th Avenue just south of the LIRR Bay Ridge cut and descended as close as possible to the underpass in hopes of being able to see R trains passing by. This cannot be achieved on the west side of 4th Avenue due to private property on that side, i.e. the parking lot to the high-rise apartment complex.The trackways were easily visible. However, I kept hearing trains go by that I couldn't see. That's when I became aware that the two trackways on the east side were never used and the active tracks run under the west side of 4th Avenue. This becomes more readily apparent when entering the Bay Ridge Avenue or 77th Street stations. The entrance passageway is noticeably longer between fare control and the east side of 4th Avenue than it is on the west side. Similarly, the four tracks of the Queens Boulevard line are much closer to the southern/western side of the Boulevard- NOT the middle-the entire length from Broadway/Grand Avenue to Van Wyck. Its hard to say whether this was dictated by topography or that the northern/western side of the Boulevard was more developed at time of construction. The tunnels running under CPW and Eastern Parkway are double-decked and shunted to the eastern and southern sides respectively despite there being ample width for a four-track line. Obviously the wealthy residents of CPW didn't want the subway running directly under their domiciles to the line was built under the edge of the park. (Several gratings are visible just inside the wall in the sixties through eighties.) As to why the Eastern Parkway tunnel was double-decked and concentrated on the south side is not clear. Another linear oddity is the IND running not directly under, but just east of Prospect Park West between 9th Street and Prospect Avenue. This accounts for the southern entrance to 15/PP being on Windsor Place a half block east of PPW. (A look at Google Earth and MSN Live Bird's Eye easily traces the tunnel ROW from PPSW to Prospect Avenue. There's a community garden and little league field atop it rather than buildings.) Could have been the PPW NIMBYs, assuming the area was all that wealthy prior to 1933. |
|
|
| (504497) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
|
|
Posted by randyo on Thu Oct 18 18:23:28 2007, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by G1Ravage on Thu Oct 18 02:51:58 2007. If you look carefully from theS/B platforms at Bay Ridge Av and 77 St you can actually see under the N/B platform since it is dead space where the N/B tracks would have been. Also if yo stand on the platform at 86 St facing the east wall of the station you will observe what appear to be employee safety niches ehich are bricked up. These bricked up safety niches exist all the way up the east wall to a point just north of the bridge over the railroad but are not easily seen except possibly from the RFW of an R-32 and even then at high speed they are not as visible. Also, before the platform extnsions of the 1960s, short spaces for at least one additional N/B track was visible at the ends of the platforms at Bay Ridge Av and 77 St stations. According to a NYS PSC report circa 1917, Bkln Edison Co was building circuit breaker chambers under the east side of 4 Av and was requested by the PSC to build these as sections of subway tunnel in the event they would need to be reclaimed for future subway expansion. Some BMT old timers have claimed that the tunnels for the N/B tracks actually exist as far as 86 St. The bricked up safety niches semm to indicate that at least some sections of these trackways may actually have been built. |
|
|
| (504699) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
|
|
Posted by Clayton on Fri Oct 19 00:44:08 2007, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by randyo on Thu Oct 18 18:23:28 2007. "When there's a will, there's a way."We shall see... |
|
|
| (1246018) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
|
|
Posted by Graham on Fri Sep 6 13:36:12 2013, in response to Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by G1Ravage on Wed Oct 17 02:42:24 2007. Apologies for posting to a six year old thread, but this seems to be the right place for this question. Does the MTA (Or anyone else) maintain a complete list of all the tunnels & bellmouths built for (But not used for) the purpose of expanding the system?If you are wondering why, a few years ago in my own city the transit authorities carried out a massive exercise to locate all the bus stops, not just the ones that were being used, but ones that had gone out of use, but were still in place, why, so that they could be actively used in route planning. |
|
|
| (1246052) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
|
|
Posted by Euclid Avenue A Train on Fri Sep 6 16:20:08 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Fytton on Wed Oct 17 10:17:19 2007. I read that there was a plan to connect from 8th Avenue IND Hudson Terminal/WTC Station To Fulton Street IND Court Street Station. |
|
|
| (1246057) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
|
|
Posted by randyo on Fri Sep 6 17:33:50 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Euclid Avenue A Train on Fri Sep 6 16:20:08 2013. That's one plan that was in the mix. |
|
|
| (1246058) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
|
|
Posted by randyo on Fri Sep 6 17:34:02 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Euclid Avenue A Train on Fri Sep 6 16:20:08 2013. That's one plan that was in the mix. |
|
|
| (1246075) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
|
|
Posted by Dan Lawrence on Fri Sep 6 19:14:41 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by randyo on Fri Sep 6 17:33:50 2013. You do realize you were responding to a 6 year old post? |
|
|
| (1246099) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
|
|
Posted by renee gil on Fri Sep 6 22:09:34 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Graham on Fri Sep 6 13:36:12 2013. Does the MTA (Or anyone else) maintain a complete list of all the tunnels & bellmouths built for (But not used for) the purpose of expanding the system?Roosevelt Avenue Terminal and trackways: The only IND Second System station that was actually finished is the Roosevelt Avenue terminal (on the upper level of the IND Queens Blvd Station in Queens), it has trackways but no tracks. There is a trackway just east of the Roosevelt Avenue Station that diverges away from the D1 track (Manhattan-bound local track).The trackway ramps up to the same level as the 2 trackways coming from the never-used Roosevelt Avenue Terminal, making 3 trackways on the upper level. The ramp flies over the mainline tracks along with the two other trackways. There is a diverging bellmouth next to the D2 track (Jamaica-bound local track) several hundred feet north of the station, just at the location where the 3 upstairs trackways are crossing over. I think only the city-bound trackway from the Roosevelt Avenue terminal station meets the main line; the other turnout, on the eastbound side, ends in a concrete wall shortly after the start of the turnout. When Roosevelt Avenue was the terminal from 1933 to 1936, the ramp leading to the upper level probably had track on it at one time. From looking from the side window of an train, it looks there isn't even any ballast on the ramp IIRC. That converted signal is actually in the path of the ramp, it would have to be moved if the ramp were to ever go in service. There is no tape on the model board either. If there was anything there, it was painted over. You have to look up at it in just the right way with certain lighting to see faint indentations of where the Winfield spur was to have turned off from D1 and D2. It is a terminal station with two trackways and an island platform, fully tiled, with blank signs in place on the island platform. The tunnel continues for quite some distance above the tracks that serve the lower station, until the point where they would no longer be on top of each other; you can see the trains on the lower tracks from the tunnel. South of the Canal Street station on the A, C, & E: A bellmouths was built south of Canal Street on the IND 8th Avenue local southbound and northbound tracks (trains headed towards World Trade Center) and was supposed to be where the trains would come off the 8th Avenue Line and turn onto Worth Street and East Broadway towards So. 4th St. Years ago I remember seeing there was a arrow painted with the words "Worth St." on it in the tunnel wall, not too far from the turnout. This is where the Worth Street Line was going to be. 2nd Avenue station on the F: Space was reserved for the 2nd Avenue line at 2nd Avenue on the IND 6th Avenue Line / look above at that end and there is a higher ceiling. The 2nd Avenue station wasn't built as an express station. The tracks end shortly past the false wall that is there (I believe one train length/535 ft). The two tracks extend about 535 feet from the end of the platform to the end of the track and tunnel, just shy of one train length. There is nothing more beyond that point, though it was intended to become an under-river tube to Brooklyn, under the 2nd Phase of the IND, was supposed to lead to what was supposed to have been the South 4th Street Station. When the service started running there, the false wall was move a little back into the tunnel to give the trains a little more than just 600 ft to berth in the station. Near the ending of the tail tracks, the tracks begin to separate and end at bumper blocks. At the end of the tracks at the bumper blocks, there is a provision of a center track which only extends about 15 feet and it stops at the bulkhead aor a diamond crossover at the end of the tunnel. I think the skells took over the area so it was blocked off so that they would stop living there. 2nd Avenue Subway Connections: The IND 63rd Street line, east of Lexington Avenue/63rd Street, the bellmouths for the 2nd Ave Subway connection are clearly visible. Now when it mears to the left it does not go in that much. I would say it goes at most 25'. No tracks have been laid as of yet. Also where one of the the bellmouth ends (southbound side, I think) there is just 2 bars there to hang on which is on the floor. Thats about it. I personally would of though it was in much deeper where you can't see nothing but black. At Lexington Avenue/63rd Street on the F line, behind the platform walls on each level is a second track intended for future connection to the proposed Second Ave Subway. East of this station, the planned track connections to the 2nd Avenue Subway curves slightly north and ends with a bumper. After the tracks ends, the roadbed goes on for a few hundred feet and the the smooth cement wall floor and ceiling come to a stop. Bellmouths east of 63rd Drive/Rego Park: There is a turn-off provision off the D1 Track (Mahattan-bound local) east of 63 Drive/Rego Park station, which would have gone down to the Rockaways via the former LIRR line. This turnoff ramps up to an upper level. It crosses over the existing IND Queens Blvd Subway to curve south, and ends at the edge of the line under Queens Blvd. Well, I've ridden on the eastbound R, G or V lines between Roosevelt Avenue and 71st-Continental many times and have seen the turnouts at from the railfan window (when the line ran R-32s). I can't recall the exact area, but I know that at least one of the turnouts is very short and comes to a wall perhaps 40ft away from the main line (I believe its the one next to the D2 Track), and, interestingly, even has an emergency exit that was built into the wall that curves away from the main line. The other one goes a little longer. I've read somewhere that one of the tunnels continues as far as 66th Avenue. As I said,it does go a little longer than the other one. These were obviously turnouts intended for lines to be built later, which of course, never were. That emergency exit where the tunnel first turns off. At the 63rd Drive station the structure at the end of the Jamaica/Forest Hills bound end was to be a tower. This structure supposed to be the tower for the proposed Rockaway Line connection. The tracks east of 179th Street: East of 179th Street on the IND Queens Blvd Line, the small layup yard on both levels east of the 179th Street Station, which was planned for an extension of the F train to Springfield Blvd or Little Neck Pkwy. The upper level track east of this station was to be extended eastward while the lower level tracks was always intended to be relay tracks. The tracks on the upper level is longer than the lower level tracks and the upper level tracks has a wooden partition at the bumper blocks. The tracks for the upper level were put in later. South of 59th Street (4th Avenue Line): South of 59th Street/4th Avenue (next to the local tracks), there are bellmouths for a proposed line to Staten Island. Well, they're not bellmouths at all, but the tunnel does not narrow south of 59th St., thereby leaving two trackways - one on either side of the 4 active tracks. Looking South on the S/B platforms, the shed that you see about 100 feet into the tunnel is sitting in one of the trackways. The view from the N/B platform is unobstructed. The trackways run for about 150 feet. The one on the N/B side ends in a brick wall, with evidence of some sort of space beyond. Even further South, the bridge over the Bay Ridge cut has four trackways, with the 2 active tracks of the 'R' line occupying the two westernmost ones (by this point, the Fourth Av line swings over to the Western half of 4th Av). South Fourth Street provisional platforms: Above the Broadway station on the G there is a unused station shell that was supposed to be called, "South 4th Street". This was part of the IND Second system, where 2 lines coming from Mahanttan was supposed to merge into. If you're standing on the N/E of the northbound G line at Broadway station you can kinda make out an darkened transfer tunnel that looks like a very wide passageway that would have taken you to the upper levels where the 6 track South 4th st station is located. The station wall on the N/E of the S/B platform looks like it was an afterthought, meaning it was built after the tranfer passage to So. 4th St wasn't gonna be used. NOTE: South 4th St. isn't a complete, full-length station. It's only as long, roughly, as the G-line station below, Broadway, is wide. I was at the Broadway station in fall of 2008 and saw what looked like an opening in the ceiling above the N/B platform near the northern end -looked like a ventilation shaft of some sort. Perhaps it had do something with the S 4th St station above..... *Bedford�Nostrand Avenues Middle Track: The "express" track at Bedford-Nostrand on the G was meant to be a separate line, not an express track, like it seems to be. After Bedford-Nostrand going Queens-bound there was supposed to have been a line continuing down Lafayette Street, and Bedford-Nostrand was supposed to have been the transfer point. The extension along Lafayette Avenue would have turned a bit at Stanhope Street and joined the Myrtle Ave-Central Ave Line (Central Ave in Glendale, not Brooklyn's Central Ave) to form a four-track line. Classon Avenue was to have had a turning track. All this was to be built as part of the IND Second System, which would have made the subway map look much different than it does today. East of this station, the middle track splits into two tracks and ramps down under the main tracks before the mainline tracks curve north, and abruptly ends. The tail tracks continues to Marcy Avenue and end at bumper blocks. *Utica Avenue station shell: At the Utica Avenue station on the A and C lines, in the center of the station, the ceiling slopes down compared to the rest of the station. Above are unused platforms intended for use of the propsosed Utica Avenue Line as part of the IND Second System. There were blocked stairways up from platform level to the unused station shell, but possible evidence is present at ceiling level. It appears that there are four trackways and two island platforms running diagonally across the ceiling in the center of the station. There are some locked doors which could serve as access to the unfinished platforms. The station shell sits unused yet relatively clean and well-lit. Before the renovation of this station in 1995-96, it was possible to see the station shell from the mezzanine. Past the main booth, there was a long ramp that goes down to a landing from which stairways lead to the 2 active platforms. There was a fence there. Past the fence, there was a tiled wall with a door. The door had a few of slots missing. A look into the door revealed the unused station platform, with the trackways. After the renovation of this station, the door which was the access to the unused platforms, was no longer there. The only access to the unused platforms would be from the locked doors in the mezzanine. Nevins Street Trackways: South of Hoyt Street on the IRT Brooklyn line, a trackway splits from the southbound local track, and starts heading downgrade to an lower level. At the curve in the subway from under Fulton Street to Flatbush Avenue, the trackway curves under the southbound local track, and is joined by another bellmouth heading north for the proposed Manhattan Bridge connection. These trackways leads to the built-but never used Nevins Street platform. After the lower Nevins Street platform, a trackway curves to the east for a subway under Lafayette Avenue, this was later built for the IND Crosstown(GG) Line. On the other side of the IND subway tunnels, the trackway rises again to merge with the southbound local track. Between this merge and Atlantic Avenue is another bellmouth, splitting from the local track towards a subway under Fourth Avenue, later bulit for the BRT/BMT. Lafayette Avenue Subway: Eastbound (Southbound): Ramp down from local track via Nevins Street station lower level and then crossing under the main level IRT subway tracks into Lafayette Ave. Westbound (Northbound): Bellmouth merges into the local track east (railroad south) of the Nevins Street station. Manhattan Bridge: Southbound: Crossing under the main tracks via the Nevins Street lower level (on the same trackway as the Lafayette Ave Subway southbound) and then ramp up to the same local track north of the Atlantic Ave. Station. Northbound: Provision for one off the local track, north of the Nevins Street station, as the subway curves from under Flatbush Avenue (north of Nevins Street) to under Fulton Street (south of Hoyt Street-Fulton Mall). Fourth Avenue Subway: Southbound: Off the local track north of the Atlantic Avenue Station. Northbound: Crossing underneath the main IRT subway tracks, and then ramp up to local track south of the Nevins Avenue station. The ramp was covered-over in the early 60s, and made into a level trackway. The northbound express and local tracks bet. Atlantic and Nevins were reconstructed in 1963. The only visible mark for the proposed IRT 4th Avenue Subway is the curve at the west end of the southbound local platform at Atlantic Avenue, which is the wall of the southbound connection. The two trackways end at about the same level, in 4th Avenue just west of the BMT 4th Avenue Line's Pacific Avenue station and just a few feet higher. Track was never laid. The trackway is no longer continuous. When the Independent Subway System was built in 1929-1937 (both Fulton St Subway and the Corsstown Line), it was allowed to go through through the lower level. When the IND built through the ramp from Nevins LL, the IRT sued, but the NYC PSC ordered the IRT to vacate the suit and it was dropped. At Bowery on the BMT Nassau Street Line, in one part of the station has a high ceiling which was built for a proposed subway to pass through it. There is also an "Future Doorway" at this station where an opening could be made to the never-built subway station, if it had side platforms. At southbound Chambers Street on the J/Z, If you walk alongside the express track to the south end of the platform, you will see that big empty space. If you look up at approximately a 45 degree angle, in the distance you'll see a single yellow bulb hanging from a ceiling, over what appears to be a darkened tunnel or trackway that crosses over the entire width of the tunnel. Its too far away to even know what it is. This was for the proposed Brooklyn Bridge connection. It may have been, though from where the cliff leaves off to the J/Z below, it would hae been quite a steep grade to climb. My guess was that perhaps the brooklyn bridge el tracks had an 'underground' terminal, like that of the tracks which went over the 59th street bridge. There is an old steel set of steps connected it to the Wine Cellar. By climbing the steps and ducking down along a truely low ceiling (3, perhaps 4 feet at some spots), you'd reach the cliff overlooking the J/Z stop. Short of the 'loading dock', 2 tunnels meet - one comes in on a curve, and the other (which has the steps in from the wine cellar) is straight. In the dirt where there 2 tunnels met, you could clearly see some type of rail switch track. The truely puzzling part is that perhaps 10, 20 feet from this switch, the track runs directly into the 'loading dock'(!), pointing in the direction of the cliff and J/Z station. At the lower level of Canal Street of the BMT Broadway line (Manhattan Bridge line) west of the station, tunnel stubs point to a planned line. This was supposed to be a "Canal Street Line" that ran from the Manhattan Bridge to a loop near the Hudson River. Plans were changed when it was decided that the Manhattan Bridge - Canal St route would be connected to the BRT/BMT Broadway Subway instead. The stubs for the Canal St subway exist. At the west end of the Canal Street Station, it is possible to see a few feet of tunnel straight ahead, past the turning point to Broadway. There is a lot of equipment in this area now including a storage bricked building on one of the trackways, but if you look carefully enough you will still see it. The never-used tunnel runs for about 100 ft or so. North of 57th Street on the BMT Broadway Subway Line two trackways turns west from the local tracks, and curve slightly towards the west before ending. This was a plan for a line that would serve the Upper West Side. When the BRT/BMT was building the Broadway line as part of the Dual Contracts, the company also wanted to be awarded the Central Park West/8th Avenue route, which was on the planning boards at that time. The company figured that if they built ramps from the Broadway line that could naturally be extended to an 8th Avenue line, they would get a toehold on being awarded that line, rather than lose out to the IRT, the only other subway operator when the Dual Contracts were built. The BMT/BRT never built that line for various reasons including the bankruptcy of the company after Malbone Street and Hylan's plan to include the 8th Avenue/CPW route in the IND system. The ramps were built but never used for revenue service. If you look carefully, there are actual track on those trackways (covered by many years of dirt--they are like two parrallel bumps). I've walked over the dirt covered stretch. If it's not track someone did a good job of making it look that way. The old tunnel went about 500 ft or so, not sure. There are power and signal rooms back there. Classon Avenue Trackway: The middle trackway at the Classon Avenue station on the G appears to have been set aside for a relay or a lay up track. If you look at the south end of the south bound at Classon, there is a room there that looks like it was to become a tower. It looks like other towers of the IND. Large door and several windows. This was also at the north end of the northbound platform at the 63 Drive station for that proposed Rockaway connection. It has since been changed for other uses and doesn't resemble a tower room anymore. I believe that had they built that line that feeds into the G Line at Bedford/Nostrand that it would have been a terminal at certain times of the day. There are some rooms north of the station's northbound platform that resemble crew facilities. The middle trackway at Classon would have been very handy. It's very strange that they had never left it as 3 trackways bet. Bed/Nost. and Classon. East Broadway on the F: At East B'way on the F Line, there locked doors at the north end of the station mezzanine that was supposed to lead up to where the Worth Street subway was to have a transfer station at. Nothing of the station was built. There is an empty trackway built over the station. The lower mezzanine has a door, which, if you peek through, you might just be able to see a trackway. That lower mezzanine is where the Worth St. subway would have gone, and the door faces the direction of the proposed tracks. The empty trackway is part of the proposed Worth St Subway which would have met the 2 middle tracks from 2 Avenue/ Houston St and gone to S 4 St. Bellmouths east of Utica Avenue: South of the IRT (3/4 Lines) Utica Avenue station platforms in Brooklyn there are bellmouths on both levels for the proposed Utica Avenue line of the IRT that was not built. Just outside the station on the local track are bellmouths leading south in Utica Avenue for the proposed Utica Avenue line. East of the Jamaica Center-Parsons/Archer station (Upper level) on the Archer Avenue Line, the track stubs turns south & abruptly ends. It was intended that the upper level (IND) was to go all the way out to Springfield Gardens, parallel with the LIRR trackage, as I had once recall from the original planning. Right now, the tracks do continue further and curves, and ends where at the stub end that a provision for a portal to go outside would have built. A Central Instrument Room(753CIR) is located deep in the tunnel on track D2A bench wall. The tail tracks on the upper level are positioned to meet up with the LIRR ROW at it's stub end. On the upper level the tracks (both D1A & D2A)curves south on 160th Street, and ends on South Road. The tail tracks at Parsons-Archer end at stationing 755+00 I believe the station platform end is at around 733+00, so there is approximatly 2200 feet of tail track. The lower level (BMT) has the trackage all the way for the provision of a diamond crossover switch at the end (circa 160th Street), and perhaps extending into a possible terminal station at Merrick Boulevard or 190th Street. In any case, as right now, a train could be easily stored as layups on each track on both levels at each ends. You can store more than one train on D1A and D2A in the back of Jamaica Center - Parsons Blvd. The J its just on train on J1 and J2 in the back at Parsons Blvd. On the BMT Broadway Line, just after the R train curves out of Whitehall Street (going southbound), there are 2 very short tunnels (never-used) sealed with brick walls. The two pockets in the south wall of the southbound tube was a provision for Construction Route #32 "Battery Park-East River-Atlantic Avenue" Route which was never built. If it had been built it would have more or less duplicated the route of the "South Ferry" ferry which ran between Whitehall Street and Atlantic Avenue, Brooklyn fron 1836 to 1933. East of 205th Street on the IND Concourse Line, though used for D train relays, is a train length tunnel extension on both tracks, originally to become a line extending towards Co-Op City. At Woodhaven Boulevard/Queens Mall, on the IND Queens Boulevard Line, at each end of the station a bellmouth exists in the tunnel walls (N/B & S/B), where the tunnels widen to allow conversion to an express station. If you look carefully, these bellmouths don't branch out so much as they veer away, but they still point ahead. The bellmouths abruptly ends on both sides of the station. North of 168th Street (IND 8th Avenue A/C), the center tracks continue to the 174th Street yard, where the C train relays. These tracks was supposed to be a proposed connection to New Jersey over the George Washington Bridge via a proposed lower level (for trains). There's a bellmouth along the northbound Brighton line between Atlantic and DeKalb that I assume was built to provide access to the Ashland Place connection to the Fulton Street elevated, which was a hot issue while that part of the BMT was under construction. What is a mystery to me is that there does not appear to be a corresponding bellmouth along the southbound Brighton line tracks, or the 4th Avenue line tracks, for that matter. When the (Briarwood) Van Wyck Blvd station on the E and F opened in 1937, there used to be bellmouths located south of this station. This was for a proposed line down Van Wyck Blvd, as part of the IND second system. These have been since connected to the Archer Avenue Subway. The entire grade separated tunnels for tracks D1A and D2A were built as part of the Queens Blvd lines contract under Public Works Administration (PWA) project No. 2741 in 1935 and 1936. The original tunnel lighting was installed and operative. They were called tracks D5 and D6 in 1935-36 and were destined to terminate at Rockaway Blvd. The tunnel was built originally from the (Briarwood) Van Wyck Blvd station to the middle of the present interlocking just north of the Jamaica-Van Wyck station. When the Archer Avenue Extension was added the original tunnel was left original except for the addition of ties and track. I figured the provision for the Van Wyck Blvd./ Archer Ave. line south of the Van Wyck Blvd (Briarwood) station was built at the same time as the rest of the Queens Blvd line. It made things a whole lot easier when construction on the Archer Ave. line began in the 1970's. After crossing the Manhattan Bridge (south side - N/Q trains), as soon as you enter the tunnel landing in Brooklyn, you see a wide open space, most likely a trackway, coming in on the right. You all see a similar space ahead of you on the left. This was from the front window perspective. This can also be seen between DeKalb Avenue and the portal to the Manhattan Bridge (Near the abandoned Myrtle Avenue station). From a paper I bought years ago about trackways on the BMT, these bellmouths were supposed to have been a provision for turning trains (a loop). Between 59th Street & Bay Ridge Avenue on the BMT 4th Avenue Subway, the current tracks is on the west side of 4th Avenue. When the subway crosses the LIRR Bay Ridge branch (the same time daylight is visible, only for a brief moment), in a lower deck of a bridge, you could clearly see that the bridge has four trackways of which only the 2 current western tracks are used. The tunnel leading up to each side of the bridge was built only for the existing two tracks. The two unused trackways on the eastern side are empty. From 65th St to 95th St, the subway is two tracks, and they were built in the west side of 4th Avenue, so that two additional tracks could be laid in the future if traffic ever warranted it. Provisions for this expansion are visible at several locations along the existing 4th Ave. Subway. At Bay Ridge Ave. and 77th St. stations, the southbound platforms has the columns, but the northbound, being where a trackway would be if expanded, does not. At 86th St, the southbound track swings out around the platform, but the northbound is straight (from the north), this would be the western half of an express station. East of the 21st Street-Queensbridge station, before the F line connects to the Queens Blvd line south of 36th Street, the train tracks starts to veer off to the left, and the tunnel walls goes straight. This opening in the tunnel is a bellmouth that was supposed to be for the Super Queens express service to Forest Hills and on to Jamaica planned in 1968. There are bellmouths just west of the Liberty Avenue Station (at the curve), just east of Broadway Junction's switches. This is viewable from the RFW of a Fulton Street local (R32), aka the train. The old David Rogoff track layouts I found in the Sprague Library marks this as a proposed connection to the Jamaica Ave. El or for an Jamaica Avenue Subway. It was not a provision for the IND Second System as were similar never-built structures on other IND subway lines. Oddly enough, the one on the northbound side has an emergency exit. The roof canopy at the Alabama Avenue station on the is flat, suggesting that there was planned express track as the flat top would be used for support. All that remains or was built is a trackway which rises east of Broadway Junction and ends at the west end of the Alabama Avenue station. The never-used ramp was built as part of the Dual Contract reconstruction of the Broadway Junction complex that took place between 1915 and the early 1920s. At that time there was also a proposal to reroute the line via a new elevated structure directly down Jamaica Avenue and demolishing the original elevated structure over Fulton Street to eliminate the curves between Crescent Street and Cypress Hills. South of 36th St/4th Ace, After the D veers off to the left to make the ramp going up toward 9 Avenue (West End El), There was another ramp that went downhill and a left turn going east. This four track turnout I saw was originally to have been a connection to a four track route going east under 40 Street. The turnouts extend as far as the east building line of 4 Avenue. After construction had begun it was decided to make the connection into the West End and Culver Lines via "Culver Cut." This involved removing the original south half of the 36 Street Station and extending the platforms to the north. I always wondered about that area too, there is a deadend tunnel under the hill that the "B" goes up between F-3, and F-1 south of 36th St. There is an ejector room there now, but I was down there before it was built and was wondering if this could have been part of an extension that was planned but never completed. There is an access ladder between 36th and 45th stations just before 1 and 3 come together that goes down to the present pump room. The tunnel follows the same incline as D-3 that the "B" goes up to the 5th Ave cut. I read how this was one of the "Triborough Subway" lines started in 1912 before the Dual System was final. They planned to route a branch under 39th St, and built the junction you saw, four tracks diverging off the main four tracks, turning east into 39th St and stopping immediately. Now it all makes sense. This station was originally planned to be a local station with a mezzanine. It was designed as one. The upper platforms are double wide which would have been consistent with the design of a mezzanine. The change was probably made in the early days of it's construction, probably after changing it to a more recognizable express format became impossible or too costly. That's why they decided to make it an express station instead. They decided this early on (as the tiles change color at Nostrand), but it was after the shell was already there that the IND probably decided to make it an express station. The express tracks ascend and decend, they don't curve too far outward, so there would have been enough to make a normal station at that point if they didn't already build a "local" station shell there before they changed the plans in the 30's. The express tracks and local tracks are not perfectly on top of each other like at other stacked express stations. They are in the middle, just on a different level. Nostrand Avenue is an after-thought express station. If the IND planned it as a stacked express station from the beginning, it would have platforms that look like those at Kingston-Throop Avenue, and the platforms would have been stacked right on top of each other, and the tracks right on top of each other. By the time it was time for the tiles, it was already decided that Nostrand would be an express station, having the express tracks go through what was originally planned to be the mezzanine of a local station. If it was planned to be a double-decker express station right from the start because of topography, it would look like Bergen Street. The underground ROW IS four tracks wide at this staation, not two tracks wide. The express tracks go up to what was supposed to be a mezzanine, and are still in between the local tracks, except they are one level up. The curtain wall between the local tracks on the lover level hides the big void where the two express tracks were originally supposed to go through. There is a closed passageway with a crossover to Bedford Avenue at the north end of the upper level along with a closed exit to Arlington Place. The closed passageway was built for a transfer to an proposed subway line, which is why the overpass was placed there. There might a shell station at this location. There is an emergency exit at that location is in fact the superstructure for an Bedford Avenue subway. The lower level has a curtain wall separating the two tracks and inside are two additional trackways. West (railroad north) of this station, there is some sort of provision in the tunnel structure for the eventual construction for a subway line. The tunnel roof is unusually high to provide the space for the construction for that future subway line. It's interesting to note that all the proposed IND Second System or even the "Third System" lines, there seems to be the least information about this subway line other than that one was proposed. That may also be why there are only minimal provisions for its construction as opposed to other lines of the IND Second System. There's also another one located at the 7th ave IND train station,on the F/G lines. When you get off the train (Coney Island bound), walk up the stairs and the floor ramps upwards at the top near the turnstyles you'll see fenced off area with a set of stairs. Looks to me like another incomplete, could this also have been for the S.I. line?... There's also an bellmouth in the 6th Avenue-Houston St Subway, along the curve just before West 4th St. I wonder what it's was for....what line was it for...? |
|
|
| (1246104) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
|
|
Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Fri Sep 6 22:45:07 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by renee gil on Fri Sep 6 22:09:34 2013. That's quite a list. Thank you for posting it.Larry, RedbirdR33 |
|
|
| (1246106) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
|
|
Posted by renee gil on Fri Sep 6 22:54:51 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Fri Sep 6 22:45:07 2013. you're welcome |
|
|
| (1246109) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
|
|
Posted by Graham on Fri Sep 6 23:35:36 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by renee gil on Fri Sep 6 22:09:34 2013. That is an incredible list, many thanks.Looking at it, one wonders if the location of the Archer Ave line was chosen because the provision to expand already existed. Wikipedia claims outright and Nycsubway.org says it's a rumor that Grand Street on the 6th Ave line was constructed along the same lines at 63rd/Lex with part of the station closed off, has anything been confirmed one way or the other? |
|
|
| (1246111) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
|
|
Posted by monorail on Fri Sep 6 23:41:30 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by renee gil on Fri Sep 6 22:09:34 2013. 'There is a closed passageway with a crossover to Bedford Avenue at the north end of the upper level along with a closed exit to Arlington Place. The closed passageway was built for a transfer to an proposed subway line, which is why the overpass was placed there.There might a shell station at this location.' certainly is a lousy location for a gas station.... |
|
|
| (1246113) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
|
|
Posted by G1Ravage on Fri Sep 6 23:56:24 2013, in response to Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by G1Ravage on Wed Oct 17 02:42:24 2007. Oh god, I almost responded to my own thread from six years ago. |
|
|
| (1246114) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
|
|
Posted by renee gil on Sat Sep 7 00:10:57 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by monorail on Fri Sep 6 23:41:30 2013. lol |
|
|
| (1246129) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
|
|
Posted by VictorM on Sat Sep 7 02:54:59 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by renee gil on Fri Sep 6 22:09:34 2013. Thanks for that thorough list. An update for the part about Lexington Av/63 St: The connection to the uptown 2 Av subway is now complete on both levels except for tracks, signals etc. There are also a couple of interesting bellmouths which can be seen from F trains near 1st Av. These were intended to connect the 63 St line to/from Queens to the southbound 2 Av subway. |
|
|
| (1246130) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
|
|
Posted by renee gil on Sat Sep 7 04:11:43 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by VictorM on Sat Sep 7 02:54:59 2013. you're welcome. 😊 |
|
|
| (1246140) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
|
|
Posted by Graham on Sat Sep 7 07:33:55 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by renee gil on Sat Sep 7 04:11:43 2013. From wikipedia, so if anyone has better information on this:59th Street (Fourth Avenue Line) "Immediately south of the station, one can see tunnel stub headings running straight from the local tracks. They run for about 150 feet and would have been for a line to Staten Island via the Staten Island Tunnel under The Narrows, which was aborted by Mayor Hylan before it was completed. There is a Maintenance of Way shed that was built on the southbound trackway. The northbound trackway is unobstructed, albeit much darker. The northbound trackway ends on a brick wall, with evidence of some sort of space beyond." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/59th_Street_%28BMT_Fourth_Avenue_Line%29 |
|
|
| (1246152) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
|
|
Posted by tunnelrat on Sat Sep 7 09:27:44 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Graham on Sat Sep 7 07:33:55 2013. the narrows tunnel was not aborted by hyland,it was a hyland project.Gov.al smith killed the project. |
|
|
| (1246156) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions (OT: nycsubway.org missing maps) |
|
|
Posted by Graham on Sat Sep 7 09:59:59 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by tunnelrat on Sat Sep 7 09:27:44 2013. OT: I just tried to look at the map of the 59th Street Station area on nycsubway.org, but could not get it to come up, has anyone else had the same problem? |
|
|
| (1246212) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
|
|
Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Sep 7 15:56:24 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by tunnelrat on Sat Sep 7 09:27:44 2013. TECHNICALLY, Hylan put the subway tunnels up for bids, but there were no takers. Back then, I guess nobody wanted to attempt to tunnel under the Narrows. The original proposal called for 2 subway tunnels and 2 railroad tunnels, and Al Smith did not want to see the railroad ones constructed. Smith had deep Pennsy interests and the Pennsy RR did not wish to see any connection which might benefit the B&O RR, either directly or indirectly. Had the City or the BRT/BMT bought the now- SIRT back then, it might have been a different story. Just had to find the right contractors, willing to tunnel under the Narrows! |
|
|
| (1246225) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
|
|
Posted by randyo on Sat Sep 7 16:33:27 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Dan Lawrence on Fri Sep 6 19:14:41 2013. I know but since it was brought up in this thread I felt it needed to be addressed. |
|
|
| (1246261) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
|
|
Posted by Dan Lawrence on Sat Sep 7 20:22:14 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by randyo on Sat Sep 7 16:33:27 2013. That's fine!!! :) |
|
|
| (1246275) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
|
|
Posted by Edwards! on Sat Sep 7 22:38:10 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Euclid Avenue A Train on Fri Sep 6 16:20:08 2013. one that by all means Should have been built. |
|
|
| (1246276) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
|
|
Posted by Edwards! on Sat Sep 7 22:38:22 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Euclid Avenue A Train on Fri Sep 6 16:20:08 2013. one that by all means Should have been built. |
|
|
| (1246320) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
|
|
Posted by renee gil on Sun Sep 8 07:22:15 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Graham on Fri Sep 6 23:35:36 2013. you're welcome |
|
|
| (1246472) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
|
|
Posted by tunnelrat on Sun Sep 8 20:38:12 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by Elkeeper on Sat Sep 7 15:56:24 2013. the narrows is narrower at the point where the tunnel was supposed to be than the PRR Hudson river tunnels.I believe that gov.smith,who had a LOT of prr stock told the contractors that if they accept the contract that they will not see a penny in state funding,the original plan called for a RR,not a subway tunnel to conn.to the lirr around 5th ave in bay ridge.it was to run across S.I. on a separate row into N.J.it was for passenger service,but the tunnels were built high enough to handle freight. |
|
|
| (1246481) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
|
|
Posted by Elkeeper on Sun Sep 8 21:22:12 2013, in response to Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by tunnelrat on Sun Sep 8 20:38:12 2013. Didn't the Pennsy have a controlling interest in the B&O, at the time? If they did, what would have been the problem? |
|
|
| (1246590) | |
Re: Bellmouths and tunnel expansions |
|
|
Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Sep 9 11:09:04 2013, in response to Bellmouths and tunnel expansions, posted by G1Ravage on Wed Oct 17 02:42:24 2007. The 63rd St tunnel was not supposed to connect to just Queens Blvd, it was supposed to connect to a super express route.The Bay Ridge line was supposed to go to Staten Island. |
|
|
|
|
Page 1 of 6 |
|
