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| Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps (1243575) | |
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Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Aug 26 10:46:33 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps, posted by Avid Reader on Mon Aug 26 07:55:10 2013. Hmmm, noticed a branch off the BMT express at 57th labelled "Morningside Ave branch". I assume they meant Columbus Ave, since Morningside Ave is just a short street near the park. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Aug 26 10:49:42 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Joe V on Sun Aug 25 06:48:41 2013. Canal St was an express stop because it would have been the last transfer point between express trains headed to Cranberry St and local trains headed towards Worth St. The only reason Canal St was an express on the BMT was because the routing over the Manhattan Bridge was modified. Originally, it was local only. |
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Re: Essex- After the IND |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Aug 26 10:52:05 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND, posted by Elkeeper on Sun Aug 25 19:41:08 2013. I know of no proposed IND Nostrand Ave line. The only new construction under Nostrand proposed was extending the IRT south of Flatbush Ave. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by renee gil on Mon Aug 26 10:53:32 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Aug 26 10:49:42 2013. The only reason Canal St was an express on the BMT was because the routing over the Manhattan Bridge was modified.At the lower level of Canal Street of the BMT Broadway line (Manhattan Bridge line) west of the station, tunnel stubs point to a planned line. This was supposed to be a "Canal Street Line" that ran from the Manhattan Bridge to a loop near the Hudson River. Plans were changed when it was decided that the Manhattan Bridge - Canal St route would be connected to the BRT/BMT Broadway Subway instead. The stubs for the Canal St subway exist. At the west end of the Canal Street Station, it is possible to see a few feet of tunnel straight ahead, past the turning point to Broadway. There is a lot of equipment in this area now including a storage bricked building on one of the trackways, but if you look carefully enough you will still see it. The never-used tunnel runs for about 100 ft or so. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Aug 26 10:53:38 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Aug 26 10:34:28 2013. Is that now the Shuttle platform ? |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Aug 26 10:57:12 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by renee gil on Mon Aug 26 10:53:32 2013. Yep, but when the BRT was awarded operation of the Broadway/7th Ave line, it was decided to connect the Manhattan Bridge into it, instead of a dedicated Canal St subway.One noticeable aspect to our subway is how ad-hoc it is. One of these days I will sit down and draw a fantasy map showing a completely centrally planned system from scratch. I've been toying with the idea for years. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Joe V on Mon Aug 26 10:57:48 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by renee gil on Mon Aug 26 10:53:32 2013. Urban legend is that the BMT wanted to go to NJ. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Edwards! on Mon Aug 26 11:36:33 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Aug 26 10:49:42 2013. you also have to consider the IND never planned for Hudson Terminal to remain a "terminal". |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Aug 26 13:32:30 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by tunnelrat on Mon Aug 26 09:39:48 2013. It was SOP to store layups there midday. I worked a Sea Beach run one day which called for me to put in a train from the middle and make 2 round trips to Stl. Although I don't recall, there were probably trains stored there overnight as well. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by renee gil on Mon Aug 26 13:35:30 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by randyo on Mon Aug 26 13:32:30 2013. from nycsubway.org:Before the 63rd street line the express tracks continued as layup spurs north of the station. However they were only about 400 feet long. Because they are tied together by a double crossing north of the station, the clear length is only 330 feet or so, not long enough for a six-car train of BMT Standards (just over 400 feet). Hence in historical times they were practically useless for layups or anything else. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by renee gil on Mon Aug 26 13:42:37 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by tunnelrat on Mon Aug 26 09:39:48 2013. both ramps north of 57th/7th have storage sheds - northbound side, right by the n/b platform & southbound side just above were the n/q/r route tunnel comes in. there was a filthy corner where the homeless lived up there years ago when it was gated up and cleaned out. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Aug 26 13:44:31 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Joe V on Mon Aug 26 10:53:38 2013. Yes. However, at the time the IRT was planned, the area was called Longacre Sq since the Times bldg was still under construction and it hadn't achieved the importance it would later have. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Aug 26 13:46:36 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by renee gil on Mon Aug 26 13:35:30 2013. There were trains of 8 X 60 footers laid up there although they did block the switches leading from the express tracks to the 60 St tunnel and the diamond Xover immediately N/O those. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by renee gil on Mon Aug 26 13:53:34 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by randyo on Mon Aug 26 13:46:36 2013. well, 8 X 60 footers (either R42's or R27/30's) trains did laid up on those express tracks it back in mid 80's. usually the < Q > train.The n/b ramp did have track very early on but it was removed long time ago. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by renee gil on Mon Aug 26 13:56:41 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Aug 26 10:34:28 2013. the original IRT subway were built from 1900-1904. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Aug 26 13:57:51 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Aug 26 10:57:12 2013. As originally planned, the Canal St line was supposed to go all the way to West St and the Bway express tracks connected to the middle tracks at Canal upper. The upper level at City hall was to have been a stub terminal for locals coming from Queens and the lower level was supposed to be a 3 track through station with the middle track used for turning express trains from either Brooklyn or uptown much the way Whitehall is today. Since the Manhattan Bridge tracks were ready before the Montague St tunnel, a "temporary" curve and ramps were built to connect the canal St subway with the Bway subway to get BMT (or BRT at the time) trains to midtown Manhattan originally only as far as 14 St. As construction of the Montague St tunnel and the line S/O Canal St progressed, another "temporary" ramp was built connecting the tracks from Cortlandt St to then upper level at City Hall to expedite the establishment of through service from the Montague St tunnel to Bway. With various economic and political conditions being what they were, this "temporary" arrangement eventually became permanent and the BMT was left with pretty much what we see today. The Xover space N/O City Hall upper was ultimately taken over and used for signal relay equipment for the City Hall master tower. |
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| (1244242) | |
Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Aug 26 14:07:28 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Edwards! on Mon Aug 26 11:36:33 2013. Correct. As part of Hylan's anti BMT vendetta, the stub tracks at Hudson Terminal were to have been connected to the BMT Bway Subway N/O Cortlandt St (which would probably have been abandoned), and the IND connected to a new tunnel utilizing the Bellmouths S/O Whitehall and connecting to the Court St IND (now museum) station. This of course would have limited the BMT tunnel service to Nassau St and made the City Hall station into a stub terminal for Bway local trains from Queens and midtown sort of how it was intended to be as originally designed as I mentioned in my other post. Under this scenario, what trains would have gone where especially if the Worth St subway had also been built is interesting to imagine. Also, if you look carefully at the switched S/O W4 St the tracks are configured so that the physically straightest routes would be from the 6 Av lcl tracks straight down to Canal and points south and the 8 Av local tracks to the Houston St Line. |
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| (1244247) | |
Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Aug 26 14:23:43 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps, posted by Avid Reader on Mon Aug 26 07:55:10 2013. For those of you who question the original route of the IND Fulton St Line S/O Euclid through 76 St, you will note according to the 1939 map that as I mentioned in several posts, the existing connection to the BMT Fulton el and the continuation of the subway down Pitkin Av were supposed to coexist rather than the connection to the el replacing the subway extension. The original 1929 plans called for the Fulton St subway to swing under Liberty Av rather than duplicate the Fulton St el under Pitkin as it did. The connection to the east end of the Fulton St el would have been made along Liberty Av via a portal on that street rather than the present portal under private property although, I would imagine that some houses along Liberty would have had to be demolished to allow the avenue to be widened for the portal similarly to what was done along McDonald Av between Church and Ditmas for the IND Culver connection. I have made mention of that variation in several posts on the IND to Fulton el connection and suspect that that is the reason the IND only initially went as far as Rockaway Av. Had the subway been routed down Liberty, the track configuration along Fulton St in the Bway Jct area would probably have had to be different so construction past Rockaway Av was probably not started until the final routing had been determined. |
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Re: Essex- After the IND |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Aug 26 14:28:58 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND, posted by Elkeeper on Sun Aug 25 19:41:08 2013. Nostrand Ave line? I never heard of one? |
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Re: Essex- After the IND |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Aug 26 14:30:36 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Aug 26 10:52:05 2013. If you look at the 1929 proposed map in this thread, you will note that the original plan for the IND Utica/Stuyvesant subway called for it to operate as a subway to Ave M, an el (Smith 9 St style) to Ave S, across Ave S to Nostrand and down Ave S to Emmons Av. The IRT Nostrand extension was to have emerged onto a similar structure also around Ave M and at Ave S would have merged with the IND structure and both would have continued as a 4 track structure to Emmons. How the 2 lines would have coexisted on that structure isn't clear but in order to avoid a massive flying junction at Ave S and Nostrand the IND would probably have had the 2 easternmost tracks exclusively and the IRT would have had exclusive use of the 2 westernmost tracks all the way to the end. |
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Re: Essex- After the IND |
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Posted by randyo on Mon Aug 26 14:30:56 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Aug 26 14:28:58 2013. See my post. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Aug 26 14:44:50 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by 3-9 on Sun Aug 25 18:28:08 2013. Not anymore, what you see there now is mostly the full wall platform. Several years ago they renovated the wall platform (one of the D-type trips dropped riders off on that platform during that time too), and they demolished the wall, exposing the abandoned stairwaysThey did NOT demolish the fake wall. They tiled over most of it. They may have opened some sections to do work, but that wall is exactly where they put it in 1989. This is the wall that replaced the "jail" gate fence along the platform. This is the primitive 'essex" mosaics I was talking about, which in 1989, was one of the first attempts at recreating mosaics in the system. In any event, these are photos from the mid-2000's renovation which tiled over the 1989 wall:     What you are thinking of may be the wall they took down in the mid 2000's renovation on the south end of the station where they redid the stairways to the F line, seen here:  (Don't remember who's photo this is) That is not where the jail like fence was. The jail like fence prior to the 1989 renovation was the whole section to the north of the fare area. That whole wall is a fake wall that cuts the platform almost in half. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Aug 26 14:52:56 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by renee gil on Mon Aug 26 13:56:41 2013. Yeah, and? It opened in 1904. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by renee gil on Mon Aug 26 15:09:31 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Aug 26 14:52:56 2013. ...and you said the IRT was built in 1904...it was built from 1900-1904! |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Aug 26 15:23:39 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by renee gil on Mon Aug 26 15:09:31 2013. Wow. I forgot that most railfans are basically anal, OCD. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by renee gil on Mon Aug 26 15:31:00 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Aug 26 15:23:39 2013. wow, seriously? |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by renee gil on Mon Aug 26 15:33:40 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Aug 26 15:23:39 2013. are you angry because what i typed in? wow... |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Aug 26 15:35:25 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by renee gil on Mon Aug 26 15:31:00 2013. Not angry, just an observation, it's just hilarious. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by renee gil on Mon Aug 26 15:37:04 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Aug 26 15:35:25 2013. what's "hilarious"? you getting angry at my comment? |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Aug 26 15:39:02 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by renee gil on Mon Aug 26 15:33:40 2013. No angry, just find it hilarious. Do you really think anyone thinks they built the subway the day before it opened? |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by renee gil on Mon Aug 26 15:43:36 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Aug 26 15:39:02 2013. Do you really think anyone thinks they built the subway the day before it opened?yeah, the first irt subway opened in 1904 though, not built in 1904... |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Aug 26 15:51:11 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Aug 26 15:23:39 2013. I would use the term mildly autistic. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by renee gil on Mon Aug 26 15:51:50 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Aug 26 15:51:11 2013. ? |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Aug 26 15:55:44 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by renee gil on Mon Aug 26 15:43:36 2013. Captain obvious.Do you think anyone thinks they built it all in the day before it opened? They always use the opening date as the build date. The Brooklyn Bridge was built in 1883. It's not necessary to give the actual constrution dates, just completion. They always use opening dates as the anniversaries. Although of course, then again, OCD. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by renee gil on Mon Aug 26 15:57:34 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Aug 26 15:55:44 2013. Captain obvious.?you're just the ignorant one aren't you? geez.. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Aug 26 16:12:19 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by MainR3664 on Sun Aug 25 20:18:38 2013. Yes. Those blue Essex tablets were put there in 1989, when they replaced the jail fence wall along the platform with that concrete block wall.They just tiled right over it in the mid 2000's renovation with the retro mosaic tile walls. It was one of the first times i had ever seen them try to put mosaics back in the system. Prior to that, they just hung metal signs. The concrete block wall went up in the 1989 renovation (on the bridge side of the fare control). On the other side of the fare control was a very old wall (don't know if it was original or not, but it had ancient tile on it. They took that wall down to make the area larger when they redid the stairways to the F train in the mid-2000's. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Aug 26 16:13:18 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Aug 26 16:12:19 2013. It was one of the first times i had ever seen them try to put mosaics back in the system. Prior to that, they just hung metal signs.To clarify, I mean the 1989 blue mosaics, not the retro mosaics in the mid 2000's when they got really good by that time. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Aug 26 16:14:04 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Aug 26 15:51:11 2013. Yeah, I was going to, but backtyped it out and replaced it with OCD. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by renee gil on Mon Aug 26 16:15:24 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Aug 26 16:14:04 2013. ? |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Aug 26 16:19:56 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Joe V on Mon Aug 26 10:53:38 2013. Yes, until the renovations, you could even see the old trackways on the floor. The mosaic Times Square tablet that is now in the entrance building, used to be on the station platform, a remnant of when it was a side platform local station, just another stop on the line. |
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Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps |
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Posted by italianstallion on Mon Aug 26 16:21:57 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Aug 26 10:46:33 2013. No, look again. This branch runs EAST of 8th Ave. on the map - i.e., under Central Park, not under Columbus. Then it swings under Morningside Ave. north of 110th.Not sure how viable it would be with no stations for such a long stretch under the Park. |
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Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Aug 26 16:31:55 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND Phase 2 Maps, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Aug 26 10:18:59 2013. The proposed Bedford Ave line was also to have been connected to the South 4th Street network. 4 tracks from South 4th St to Utica Ave line and 2 for Bedford Ave line. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Aug 26 16:36:11 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Marc A. Rivlin on Mon Aug 26 09:25:48 2013. Interesting, thank you! Another good reason why the City made Canal St- Holland Tunnel an express stop. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Aug 26 16:47:47 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Aug 26 15:55:44 2013. Some people are so anal here, they get an orgasm everytime they fart! |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by renee gil on Mon Aug 26 16:49:42 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Elkeeper on Mon Aug 26 16:47:47 2013. lol |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Aug 26 16:52:23 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by renee gil on Mon Aug 26 16:49:42 2013. I guess you have already figured that one out! |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by renee gil on Mon Aug 26 16:56:41 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Elkeeper on Mon Aug 26 16:52:23 2013. what's that supposed to mean? |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Aug 26 16:56:42 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by randyo on Mon Aug 26 07:33:29 2013. I read somewhere that there was a cave-in at 53rd St/8th Ave when they were building the IND subway. Almost took the 6th Ave el with it! |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Mon Aug 26 16:58:24 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Elkeeper on Mon Aug 26 16:52:23 2013. That you figured out that a lot of people here are anal. It was not directed at you, Renee, chill out, man! |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by renee gil on Mon Aug 26 16:59:42 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Elkeeper on Mon Aug 26 16:58:24 2013. Oh, sorry. |
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