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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Aug 23 14:05:21 2013, in response to Essex- Before the IND, posted by MainR3664 on Fri Aug 23 14:01:43 2013. IIRC, access to the Brooklyn (Queens) bound platform was via the trolley terminal and the underpass now used exclusively for access to Essex Master. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by monorail on Fri Aug 23 14:09:58 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Aug 23 14:05:21 2013. there was(still is, just covered up) a staircase at the bridge end of the brooklyn bound platform |
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| (1243586) | |
Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Aug 23 14:21:53 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Aug 23 14:05:21 2013. I see how that could work. Thank You. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Aug 23 14:26:09 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by monorail on Fri Aug 23 14:09:58 2013. And I'm gathering form your and Chris's response, that to get to/from the Eastbound platform you'd go from the street, through the trolley terminal, and to the BRT/BMT, and vice-versa...? |
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| (1243628) | |
Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Aug 23 17:53:35 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by MainR3664 on Fri Aug 23 14:26:09 2013. I believe so. Originally, the Brooklyn bound platform was the only platform. The side platform was added later. Not sure how people got from the newer side platform to the older island platform during the 2 decades or so between it opening and the IND being built. |
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| (1243629) | |
Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Fri Aug 23 18:05:46 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Aug 23 17:53:35 2013. No. The side platform is original. There was another siex platform and a different middle platform. Where the "express" track is was the original island platform.. and where the current island platcorm was a track and original wall platform where the queens track is now. |
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| (1243645) | |
Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Joe V on Fri Aug 23 19:25:22 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Fri Aug 23 18:05:46 2013. Why does the Broad Street-bound track miss the first portion of the platform as it swoops in ? |
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| (1243663) | |
Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by monorail on Fri Aug 23 21:00:28 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by MainR3664 on Fri Aug 23 14:26:09 2013. there were 'hen-houuses' in the street similar to what was at 59 St, by the Qnsbrgh Brdg, leading to the trolley terminal and to the bklyn bound platform. Not sure where if I have a photo |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Fri Aug 23 23:02:52 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by monorail on Fri Aug 23 21:00:28 2013. Thanks!!! |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Aug 24 07:23:22 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Fri Aug 23 18:05:46 2013. This is confusing. Were there once 4 tracks there ? |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by monorail on Sat Aug 24 07:53:13 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Joe V on Sat Aug 24 07:23:22 2013. with the trolley terminal, yes...if not more |
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| (1243760) | |
Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Aug 24 08:04:46 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by monorail on Sat Aug 24 07:53:13 2013. I mean subway tracks |
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| (1243765) | |
Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sat Aug 24 08:59:22 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Joe V on Sat Aug 24 07:23:22 2013. Two tracks....three platforms |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sat Aug 24 09:00:03 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Joe V on Fri Aug 23 19:25:22 2013. I dont understand what you mean |
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| (1243767) | |
Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sat Aug 24 09:00:03 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Joe V on Fri Aug 23 19:25:22 2013. I dont understand what you mean |
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| (1243772) | |
Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sat Aug 24 09:06:31 2013, in response to Essex- Before the IND, posted by MainR3664 on Fri Aug 23 14:01:43 2013. Ghere used to be many stairways down to the wall platform. The wall platform is really twice as wide as it appears. Behind that wall is the other half and the walled up stIrways as well as the original tile walls. The original tiles are white brick sthle tiles like the IRT. No mosaics. Prior to 1989, there was a jail like fence blockibg that whole side of the platform off but it was all in public view. Theg stored all sorts of junk there and the signage was standard black metal signs o the jail like fence. There was a removation in 1989 which walled it all up and the first attempt at recreating mosaics with prkmative essex tablets. They in turn were covered over in the more recent mosaics there now.But remember....that wall is a fake wall....the platform is truely twice as wide. |
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| (1243776) | |
Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by renee gil on Sat Aug 24 09:46:56 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Joe V on Sat Aug 24 07:23:22 2013. when the essex street station (then named delancey st) were the terminal from 1908-1913, it had 2 tracks, and 3 platforms (2 side platforms and 1 island platform) and all 3 platforms were connected at the western end of the station. The essex st terminal had a similar setup to atlantic avenue when it was the terminal of the Brooklyn IRT from 1908 to 1920, and 242nd st, woodlawn/Jerome, 241st st, and pelham bay park stations too. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Aug 24 09:56:53 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sat Aug 24 09:00:03 2013. The eastern most end of the platform and the track coming off the WB Bridge are quite some distance apart. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Aug 24 09:59:17 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by renee gil on Sat Aug 24 09:46:56 2013. Sort of like PATH at 33rd and Hoboken too. I guess they wanted separate and fast ingress/egress to relay trains ASAP.Then they build a POS terminal like Times Square for the #7 only to be corrected at 34th/11th Avenue 100 years later. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Sat Aug 24 10:01:34 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Joe V on Sat Aug 24 09:59:17 2013. I could never understand why the IRT didn`t extend to 12th ave.any thoughts? |
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| (1243782) | |
Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by renee gil on Sat Aug 24 10:01:59 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by renee gil on Sat Aug 24 09:46:56 2013. also there is a provision for a track to run through the trolley terminal area and join the J/M/Z subway just west of the delancey/essex station. |
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| (1243783) | |
Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Sat Aug 24 10:03:32 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Joe V on Sat Aug 24 09:56:53 2013. and nobody knows what that space to the right of the station as you enter it[manh.]was built for. |
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| (1243784) | |
Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Sat Aug 24 10:04:03 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by renee gil on Sat Aug 24 10:01:59 2013. 2 tracks. |
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| (1243786) | |
Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Aug 24 10:08:10 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by tunnelrat on Sat Aug 24 10:03:32 2013. Maybe another trolley terminal for those cars off the north side of the bridge ? |
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| (1243787) | |
Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Sat Aug 24 10:09:06 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Joe V on Sat Aug 24 10:08:10 2013. nobody seems to know. |
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| (1243788) | |
Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Aug 24 10:09:12 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by tunnelrat on Sat Aug 24 10:01:34 2013. Probably no money, then IND block them with the useless you-know-what.But with Bloomberg, the IRT has triumphed. |
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| (1243789) | |
Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Aug 24 10:10:24 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by renee gil on Sat Aug 24 10:01:59 2013. Back in the day Bway-Bklyn locals terminated at Canal Street, where did they switch to the middle track(s) ? |
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| (1243792) | |
Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by renee gil on Sat Aug 24 10:16:30 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by tunnelrat on Sat Aug 24 10:03:32 2013. you mean that big space to the right of the (J2 track) broad St bound track, soon after the J/M/Z trains come off the Williamsburg bridge and enters delancey/essex st, right?i've been wondering about that for years... |
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| (1243794) | |
Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Sat Aug 24 10:20:06 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by renee gil on Sat Aug 24 10:16:30 2013. yup, |
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| (1243797) | |
Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by renee gil on Sat Aug 24 10:38:31 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by tunnelrat on Sat Aug 24 10:20:06 2013.  the big space is in the left of the pic, beyond the broad St platform, in the tunnel. you can't really see it clearly in the pic, but it's there. |
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| (1243800) | |
Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Joe V on Sat Aug 24 10:49:26 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by renee gil on Sat Aug 24 10:38:31 2013. I seem to remember that the side platform extends further east than there is track right in front of it |
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| (1243847) | |
Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Aug 24 15:20:44 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by tunnelrat on Sat Aug 24 10:01:34 2013. Remember, the West Side (Hell's Kitchen) was not as developed as midtown and downtown. Even the 42nd Street station of the Ninth Ave el was a local one. So, they figured, why bother to extend the (now) #7 line westward from Times Square. |
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| (1243849) | |
Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Aug 24 15:44:30 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Joe V on Sat Aug 24 10:08:10 2013. No, 3 Manhattan routes used the north bridge tracks. My guess is that it was for a never-built LIRR terminal, when joint BRT-LIRR service operated to the terminal after 1908. |
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| (1243850) | |
Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Aug 24 15:45:37 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Elkeeper on Sat Aug 24 15:44:30 2013. What were the routes that used the north bridge tracks? |
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| (1243852) | |
Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Elkeeper on Sat Aug 24 15:55:35 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Aug 24 15:45:37 2013. 4th Ave (Man.)-Grand Central, Grand St Crosstown, 8th St Crosstown, and 14 St Crosstown. All were gone by 1932. Another earlier line, the Brooklyn and North River (Canal St Crosstown) ended service on 10/04/1919. None of these lines would have needed that mystery space. |
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| (1243871) | |
Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by 3-9 on Sat Aug 24 18:06:50 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Joe V on Sat Aug 24 10:10:24 2013. Probably east of Essex, plus there were additional switches between Bowery and Canal IIRC. |
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| (1243876) | |
Re: Essex- After the IND |
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Posted by jabrams on Sat Aug 24 19:17:14 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sat Aug 24 09:06:31 2013. On the northside of both IND platforms there are doors that appear to lead to either a closed up mezzanine or a crossover. What was it and when was it blocked off? |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Marc A. Rivlin on Sat Aug 24 20:48:55 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by monorail on Fri Aug 23 21:00:28 2013. There appears to be a 1919 photo on the station's Wikipedia page. |
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| (1243895) | |
Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Handbrake on Sat Aug 24 21:32:41 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Joe V on Sat Aug 24 10:09:12 2013. The IRT has not triumphed, the NYC subway has. The moniker IRT, or even BMT & IND have long lost their meaning. With exception to internal NYCT usage. Since 1940 it has been one NYC Transit System, regardless of the system operator's designation.NYCT Master Reference (MR) station designations on the Flushing line extension to 34th Street/11th Avenue do not refer to the station with as IRT designation, since that new subway station was not built by the IRT Company. I know that it may be tough for most transit buffs to accept this fact. The extension of the #7 line to the west side is an A division addition, not IRT, and NYCT station drawings for that project reflect this fact. I work on that project. To say that IND blocked the IRT, I don't believe this to be true, but a rail fan distortion. When the 8th Avenue subway was built, NYC paid for the construction of that subway, as well as the majority of subway line expansion during the dual contract period. NYC called the shots on where tunnels would be built since it was paid with NYC tax dollars. So to say that the NYC operated IND blocked the privately operated IRT does not make real sense. The privately owned transit operators owned and operated the equipment placed inside the subway, the tunnels belonged to NYC. I know that I will be getting allot of flack for the above, but emotions aside, it's far from being untrue!!! |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Sat Aug 24 21:42:58 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Handbrake on Sat Aug 24 21:32:41 2013. iirc,90% was paid by the feds[correct me if I,m wrong] this was mostly under hyland`s regime who hated the private traction companies.it is not that far fetched to say that hyland had his subway planners put in the l/l of 42st.to block any future ext. of the irt.every ones thoughts on this post should be of intrest. |
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| (1243897) | |
Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Handbrake on Sat Aug 24 21:48:56 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by gp38/r42 chris on Sat Aug 24 09:06:31 2013. On the south side of the Bridge Plaza is an emergency exits that was once a staircase the led to a track level mezzanine and fare control adjacent to Essex Tower. The existing stairway leading to the J2 track underpass and up to the middle platform, now closed to the public, was one way into the station.The trolley terminal had stairways up to the street, similar to the fake kiosks that are at the Manhattan side of the Queensboro Bridge. Plus there is a wide stairway that is behind the Essex Tower that connected to a mezzanine area that is at subway car platform height that led to staircases to the street. Behind that low level mezzanine located behind the tower, where a communications room is located, there are two unused trackways that face railroad south . These trackways appeared aligned with the Trolley terminal closest to J2 track. The Christie Street cut off appears to have disturbed those trackways, so it's difficult to determine if there was a merge with the main line to the south. There are interesting places in the Essex Street back area. Bad air an all. |
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| (1243898) | |
Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Handbrake on Sat Aug 24 21:55:26 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by tunnelrat on Sat Aug 24 21:42:58 2013. Hyland had personal issues, based on what was know about the personality in question. The bottom line is that city called the shots on tunnel digging. The IRT was in no way in a position to pay for subway construction out of its own pockets. I believe the IRT Company was about to go into receivership by about the time the city operated subway was being built.OSHA or no OSHA, it was till not cheap to dig a tunnel, let alone equip it to run an underground electric railroad. Why NYC did not extend the Flushing line further west to develop that area of Manhattan is unknown. Property development was cheaper in the outlying Boroughs Redevelopment of the West Side is a more modern phenomena. In the ensuing years, the automobile won out. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by monorail on Sat Aug 24 22:24:52 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Marc A. Rivlin on Sat Aug 24 20:48:55 2013. that's 1 of em.. |
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Re: Essex- After the IND |
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Posted by Handbrake on Sat Aug 24 22:43:59 2013, in response to Re: Essex- After the IND, posted by jabrams on Sat Aug 24 19:17:14 2013. There is a full length mezzanine above the IND Delancy Street station that is used as employee quarters. This includes sealed off stairways to the street along Essex Street.Typical of IND style mezzanine overkill. One interesting example is the 21st Street/Van Alst station of the G. 75% of the station mezzanine is closed off on the south end. In fact, it may have never been put into public use or access. The mezzanine ceilings, and the original incandescent light fixtures are all unpainted. The north mezzanine area include ramps, and provisions for two additional fare control access areas. All this space is used by infrastructure to store cement, and other civil engineering materiel. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Sat Aug 24 23:08:37 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Handbrake on Sat Aug 24 21:48:56 2013. they are provisions to run trolley cars over the subway tracks to chambers st.& then over the Brooklyn bridge via the Brooklyn bridge ramps that were put in by the DEPT OF BRIDGES,NOT THE BRT in 1910.I have seen only a few lines written about this unique operation that never took place in an old ERA bulletin.I have no idea if trolley wire was to be strung in the tunnels or the trolleys were to be equipped with 3rd rail shoes or where the trolleys were to have stops & how would they get passengers off a low platform trolley onto a high platform subway station.apparantely this was a hot item because several trolley companies bid on it. anyone have further info on this? |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by Handbrake on Sat Aug 24 23:25:56 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by tunnelrat on Sat Aug 24 23:08:37 2013. The two trackways south of the Essex trolley terminal appears totally bare. No ballast, no overhead hanger brackets for wire operation. Brand new like in 1908, except grimy.I saw the unfinished ramp going up towards the Bklyn bridge about a year ago. Access through what was either an old wine or beer cellar that included a 24" railway and turntable. Real Hollywood looking place. If you were a NYCTA PO, you would know about this place in the BB station mezzanine underpass that leaves you on the south side of the BB next to Pace. |
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| (1243912) | |
Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by renee gil on Sat Aug 24 23:26:02 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by tunnelrat on Sat Aug 24 23:08:37 2013. IIRC there was a provision for 2 more tracks and 2 platforms to be built at Chambers Street. That would have been east of the current station.At southbound Chambers Street, if you walk alongside the express track to the south end of the platform, you will see that big empty space. If you look up at approximately a 45 degree angle, in the distance you'll see a single yellow bulb hanging from a ceiling, over what appears to be a darkened tunnel or trackway that crosses over the entire width of the tunnel. Its too far away to even know what it is. I'm pretty sure this was for the proposed Brooklyn Bridge connection. It may have been, though from where the cliff leaves off to the J/Z below, it would hae been quite a steep grade to climb. My guess was that perhaps the brooklyn bridge el tracks had an 'underground' terminal, like that of the tracks which went over the 59th street bridge. There is an old steel set of steps connected it to the Wine Cellar. By climbing the steps and ducking down along a truely low ceiling (3, perhaps 4 feet at some spots), you'd reach the cliff overlooking the J/Z stop. Short of the 'loading dock', 2 tunnels meet - one comes in on a curve, and the other (which has the steps in from the wine cellar) is straight. In the dirt where there 2 tunnels met, you could clearly see some type of rail switch track. The truely puzzling part is that perhaps 10, 20 feet from this switch, the track runs directly into the 'loading dock'(!), pointing in the direction of the cliff and J/Z station. |
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| (1243914) | |
Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by renee gil on Sat Aug 24 23:31:39 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Handbrake on Sat Aug 24 23:25:56 2013. the westernmost tracks at chambers St is higher at the south end of the station than the others, in anticipation of crossing the Brooklyn Bridge. |
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Re: Essex- Before the IND |
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Posted by renee gil on Sat Aug 24 23:35:40 2013, in response to Re: Essex- Before the IND, posted by Handbrake on Sat Aug 24 23:25:56 2013. The trackways up to brooklyn bridge are in place. It is a short tunnel with one trackway that spits into two, just south and above the westernmost end of the station where the tracks ramp upward a bit - just beyond the turn there, high on the wall, is the cliff from this trackway down to the active j/m/z.it's a short segment that ends at a wall, and is inaccessable. Ironically, i recall a bit of track buried in the dirt there - which counters the notion that the trackway was built w/o track. perhaps it was temporary railing? |
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