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| Re: 9th Avenue LL Question (1170611) | |
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Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Aug 13 18:29:26 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by MainR3664 on Mon Aug 13 14:27:18 2012. It's possible they never saw revenue service, but since that was their intended purpose, it's presumptive that they were, barring specific knowledge that they weren't. |
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Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by SLRT on Mon Aug 13 18:30:51 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by MainR3664 on Mon Aug 13 14:28:49 2012. Anything's possible (almost) but that is the sheerest speculation. |
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Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Aug 13 22:02:19 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by randyo on Mon Aug 13 15:59:19 2012. Well, that is good. Then I'll keep on posting my wild ideas and you can keep telling me why they are wrong. LIONS like to hatch plans (in case you had not noticed) and him is not so concerned if they will work or not. LION already has timetables and such for his own subway, but has to admit that your layout is a bit more complicated.Obviously if a train is full of rush hour passengers you cannot pull it out of service at 36th Street, so the train will have to make another round trip to Astoria, and we will sign it for 9th Avenue when it heads south will less gooses on it. If they will not change at 36th street on their own, then they can fumigated at 9th Avenue, and then the crew can take the train into the yard. But what say you to my primary premise: EXPRESS TRAINS run from 63rd Street via Bridge, and LOCAL TRAINS run from 60th Street via Tunnel. And keep your darn fingers off of my interlocking machines! If this premise looks good then ASTORIA *must* be a local train since it can ONLY go to 60th Street. And if it is local via tunnel then logic says it must end up at Ft. Hamilton. What is a LION to do about that? LION would wait until after 7PM to start pulling alternate trains off of the local, and stash them in the yard at 39th Street. And you have to admit, that making morning put-ins from 39th can not be all that difficult. It is trade off. LION thinks he is trying to make Broadway more efficient and not less so. ROAR |
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iPhone 6 (4.7 Inch) Premium PU Leather Wallet Case - Red w/ Floral Interior - by Notch-It |
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Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by Wallyhorse on Tue Aug 14 01:05:37 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Sun Aug 12 18:14:26 2012. This would be more of a barebones renovation, enough to get the platforms on the lower level to where they can be used when needed in an emergency and for G.O.'s that require terminating trains on 9th Avenue-Lower Level. A good cleaning would be the main thing followed by the necessary work to get the platforms into good standing order.If later on a re-build of the old connection between the 4th Avenue line and Culver El is done, then the station would get a full-bore renovation to bring it up to normal standards. |
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Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Aug 14 03:29:08 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Aug 13 22:02:19 2012. Putting a scheduled layup onto an extra N/B trip out of 95 St just to, cycle it into a S/B layup later wouldn't work either since later PM headways are longer than rush hour headways and would cause either an unduly long headway between 36 St and 95 St or generate an unnecessary trip in both directions. Why don't you come down to NYCTA Operations Planning and try to get a job preparing some schedules and then see if your methods work. I can say with an extremely high degree of accuracy that they will NOT!!! |
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Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by merrick1 on Tue Aug 14 07:22:42 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by Wallyhorse on Sat Aug 11 04:35:46 2012. Wouldn't the money be better spent on snow removal equipment so a blizzard wouldn't be an emergency? Transit's snow removal plans are overly dependent on guys with shovels. |
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Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Aug 14 10:17:45 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by randyo on Tue Aug 14 03:29:08 2012. But you do not reduce headways until the nightbirds have returned to the roosts. Broadway Can always use extra local service into the evening.Or else build a new underground terminal between 95th Street and the ocean. The New Utrect level (39th Streeet) is at grade at 3rd Avenue and just below grade at 4th avenue with the 4th Avenue subway below that. Betcha a curved ramp from the northbound 4th Ave could bend west towards 3rd Avenue and then on to a new yard built out on the piers. Yes some grade crossings, who cares? ROAR |
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Posted by Edwards! on Tue Aug 14 10:39:45 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Aug 13 22:02:19 2012. it doesnt HAVE to end up at Ft Hamilton..it could be a Brighton train..or Sea Beach..or even a West End.. |
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Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Tue Aug 14 11:01:01 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by SLRT on Mon Aug 13 18:29:26 2012. Fair enough. Until this very thread,, I thought they were the 5th Ave El connection. I thought that from the first moment I saw them in 1991. While there was no public internet then, I had seen old maps in the Transit Museum, and I thought I'd figured out its route.Since they were abandoned at that time, while the other ramps were serving as the yard connection, it seemed to make sense. Also, were there not vestigial signals on them until a few years ago? |
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Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Tue Aug 14 11:01:48 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by SLRT on Mon Aug 13 18:30:51 2012. Yep...it is speculating...but we do a lot of that on here, don't we? |
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Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by SLRT on Tue Aug 14 12:06:11 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by MainR3664 on Tue Aug 14 11:01:01 2012. I don't recall anything on the ramps, in my memory.If you look at the big picture that's been posted viewing the interlocking from 9th Avenue station, the ramps make a straight line to each Culver (i.e., lower level) local track. |
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Re: Confirmation: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Aug 14 12:32:08 2012, in response to Re: Confirmation: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by 3-9 on Mon Aug 13 01:15:24 2012. Yeah, I'm sticking to my assertion. I don't think this junction was used yet, since it's 1915, but there are clearly no tracks on the westernmost ramps. |
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Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Aug 14 12:33:09 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by Wallyhorse on Tue Aug 14 01:05:37 2012. There is nothing the LL there can do that cannot be done on the upper level. It's utterly useless for anything except storage space. |
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Re: Confirmation: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Aug 14 13:00:28 2012, in response to Re: Confirmation: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by SLRT on Sun Aug 12 20:22:24 2012. But this 1924 overhead view also strongly indicates NO track. Just look at it. I get the feeling these ramps were not used when the full 38th St cut was done, that it was used only when Culver and West End services ran on the surface and only from the 5th Ave el. Your picture is clearly taken from the time when the trains in the area were powered by trolly wire. |
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Posted by randyo on Tue Aug 14 14:01:53 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Aug 14 10:17:45 2012. That is always the case, but since there is barely enough money to complete projects now under construction, there certainly wouldn't be any money for a project which really isn't necessary since the current service patterns adequate for the needs of most passengers. |
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Re: Confirmation: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by SLRT on Tue Aug 14 15:19:22 2012, in response to Re: Confirmation: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Aug 14 12:32:08 2012. So it seems that these four rabbis had a series of theological arguments, and three were always in accord against the fourth. One day, the odd rabbi out, after the usual "3 to 1, majority rules" statement that signified that he had lost again, decided to appeal to a higher authority."Oh, God!" he cried. "I know in my heart that I am right and they are wrong! Please give me a sign to prove it to them!" It was a beautiful, sunny day. As soon as the rabbi finished his prayer, a storm cloud moved across the sky above the four. It rumbled once and dissolved. "A sign from God! See, I'm right, I knew it!" But the other three disagreed, pointing out that storm clouds form on hot days. So the rabbi prayed again: "Oh, God, I need a bigger sign to show that I am right and they are wrong. So please, God, a bigger sign!" This time four storm clouds appeared, rushed toward each other to form one big cloud, and a bolt of lightning slammed into a tree on a nearby hill. "I told you I was right!" cried the rabbi, but his friends insisted that nothing had happened that could not be explained by natural causes. The rabbi was getting ready to ask for a *very big* sign, but just as he said, "Oh God...," the sky turned pitch black, the earth shook, and a deep, booming voice intoned, "HEEEEEEEE'S RIIIIIIIGHT!" The rabbi put his hands on his hips, turned to the other three,and said, "Well?" "So," shrugged one of the other rabbis, "now it's 3 to 2." |
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Re: Confirmation: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by Edwards! on Tue Aug 14 15:25:17 2012, in response to Re: Confirmation: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by SLRT on Tue Aug 14 15:19:22 2012. LOL!..Loved it..!Made my evening. |
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Re: Confirmation: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by G1Ravage on Tue Aug 14 15:39:14 2012, in response to Re: Confirmation: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by SLRT on Sun Aug 12 20:22:24 2012. Here's a Bing bird's eye view of the unused leads. It more or less leads into what's now the parking lot for Murphy Tower and yard peoples. There's a track that sort of runs near it, but then looks like it dips back to the main tracks near the roadway.Clicky. |
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Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by Dupont Circle Station on Tue Aug 14 16:19:03 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Aug 14 10:17:45 2012. I have said a number of times now that the only conceivable terminal usage for 9LL would be for resurrected Nassau via Tunnel service. That is not likely until at least 3-5 years after the new WTC is open and occupied. If a Culver connection is ever restored, it won't be for at least 20-25 years in the future. 9LL should at least be maintained and kept in an acceptable condition for passenger use at all times for reroutes or other short-term service changes that will not interfere with normal West End service. |
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Re: Confirmation: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by SLRT on Tue Aug 14 16:26:09 2012, in response to Re: Confirmation: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by G1Ravage on Tue Aug 14 15:39:14 2012. The yard has been heavily reconfigured a number of times. That loop is recent. If you're talking about the parking lot I think you are, that's where the 5th Avenue L connection was. |
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Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Aug 14 16:58:26 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by Edwards! on Tue Aug 14 10:39:45 2012. But then you have to play with the interlocking towers on 4th Avenue. |
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Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Aug 14 17:02:08 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Aug 14 12:33:09 2012. Ahem... Only the lower level has direct access to the Trash Train Terminal.ROAR |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Tue Aug 14 17:21:30 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Aug 14 17:02:08 2012. Uh.no.it can be accessed thru the south bklyn`s non-electrictrified tracks. |
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Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by SLRT on Tue Aug 14 22:50:35 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by tunnelrat on Tue Aug 14 17:21:30 2012. If you're willing to make several reverse moves involving possible interference with revenue service. |
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Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by tunnelrat on Wed Aug 15 10:25:01 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by SLRT on Tue Aug 14 22:50:35 2012. I AM. |
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Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Aug 15 13:34:28 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by MainR3664 on Mon Aug 13 14:39:47 2012. They were removed in 1995-7 when the entire el platform was rebuilt and enclosed for the upgraded tower. |
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Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Aug 15 13:35:18 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by Broadway Lion on Tue Aug 14 17:02:08 2012. Correction. Useless for revenue trains. |
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Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by randyo on Wed Aug 15 18:52:27 2012, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Aug 15 13:34:28 2012. Then that does beat Franklin. |
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Posted by renee gil on Sat May 18 04:30:34 2013, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed Aug 15 13:34:28 2012. Which explains why the tracks leading to Myrtle/B'way upper were still there as late as July 1994: |
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Posted by randyo on Sun May 19 18:10:35 2013, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Aug 13 22:02:19 2012. Trains to and from 60 Dt can be either local or express, however thanks to shortsighted MTA planning, only express trains can access 63 St. |
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Posted by randyo on Sun May 19 18:25:45 2013, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by renee gil on Sat May 18 04:30:34 2013. One of the things that I neglected to allude to in my posts on this subject is why the MTA didn't keep the upper level for use by M shuttles when they operated. AsI had mentioned, information I had indicated that the original Myrtle Av structure could have supported any piece of equipment that the NYCTS operated and since it was rebuilt during the dual contracts, the upper level at Bway/Myrtle would be even more likely to support steel equipment. Since Bway/Myrt upper did not have the station clearance problem of the other Myrtle stations, it would have been no problem for the platform to be cut back to accommodate 10 ft wide steel cars and for the old tail switch RR south of the station to be reinstalled. During hours, when through M service did not operate, the M shuttles could have operated into M2 tk on the upper level and reversed over that tail switch which could have been made an automatic switch like the one at Fkln/Fltn without interfering with mainline J service. When M service operated through, the upper level platform could have been closed off to passengers. |
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Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by Newkirk Images on Sun May 19 20:34:11 2013, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Aug 12 16:09:01 2012. Houses are not forever, you know.Who said that, Robert Moses ? Bill Newkirk |
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Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun May 19 20:44:12 2013, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by Newkirk Images on Sun May 19 20:34:11 2013. Bank of America. :) |
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Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by 3-9 on Sun May 19 21:16:04 2013, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sun May 19 20:44:12 2013. Among others, lol. :-) |
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Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by 3-9 on Sun May 19 23:59:06 2013, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by randyo on Sun May 19 18:25:45 2013. Until I had evidence otherwise, I actually thought they used the upper platform for the Myrtle Ave. shuttle. I thought it just made sense not to interfere with the Broadway el underneath with the shuttle. |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Mon May 20 00:14:04 2013, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by 3-9 on Sun May 19 23:59:06 2013. On no ... Screwing up the railroad is a time-honored tradition! :) |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon May 20 01:09:29 2013, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by 3-9 on Sun May 19 23:59:06 2013. Doing that would have required the retention of the Q types, as the upper level platform could not have operated subway cars. The crossover north of the platform was removed in the late 50's. |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Mon May 20 10:25:29 2013, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by renee gil on Sat Aug 4 17:22:10 2012. i was there last week. Southernmost track has a considerable amount of rust on the rails, and the center track is blocked with red flags and lanterns.I was wondering what's going on- rehabilitation or severing of 1 or 2 tracks... |
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Posted by MainR3664 on Mon May 20 10:27:01 2013, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by Wallyhorse on Sun Aug 12 14:23:56 2012. This is most unlikely to ever happen... |
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Posted by randyo on Mon May 20 14:17:43 2013, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon May 20 01:09:29 2013. Read my post. The upper level of Bway/Myrt did not have the same structural restrictions as the rest of the el between Bway and Bridge St so it would have been a relatively easy job to shave back the platforms. Also As I have mentioned in several other posts, I had received information years ago that the entire el could have supported all steel cars including the D types and the upper level at Bway/Myrt would have probably been even stronger since it was rebuilt under the dual contracts. |
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Posted by Dupont Circle Station on Mon May 20 14:36:37 2013, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by 3-9 on Sun May 19 23:59:06 2013. No one would have enjoyed the schlep up the stairs. Don't mess with the convenience of the cross-platform transfer for railfan foamage. |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon May 20 14:42:53 2013, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by randyo on Mon May 20 14:17:43 2013. Perhaps, but why bother when it costs nothing to use the lower level middle track, which also provided an easier transfer AND allowed them to cut back on maintenance? |
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Posted by randyo on Mon May 20 16:18:54 2013, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon May 20 14:42:53 2013. That may be true, but if the upper level were able to be use, the TA could have saved money on the tower operator at Bway/Myrtle by eliminating midnight and weekend coverage. |
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Re: 9th Avenue LL Question |
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Posted by Koi-PublicTransitIsMyLifeline on Wed May 22 02:37:00 2013, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by SLRT on Sun Aug 12 19:54:43 2012. It looks like there is track on the right ramp, but not on the left ramp, although you're correct about there not being enough resolution in the picture.Koi |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed May 22 14:01:23 2013, in response to Re: 9th Avenue LL Question, posted by Koi-PublicTransitIsMyLifeline on Wed May 22 02:37:00 2013. I'm pretty sure I see blank trackways on the westernmost set of ramps. Now, there WERE once tracks on them, but I suspect they were never used after the 4th Ave subway opened. 39th St was expanded around this time. |
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