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| (1194842) | |
IND accident of 1936 |
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Posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Fri Dec 28 20:46:09 2012 Bill Newkirk has sent me a photo of the 1936 Ninth Street IND wreck to host and post. If you look at the position of the units, you can see that R-1 #212 has been almost completely telescoped by R-4 #472, which is buried underneath it. The carbody of #212 has been ploughed into the tunnel ceiling. The force was great enough to fracture #472's bulkhead downward and destroy the front end of the following car - R-1 #378. The source is uncredited, but the photo is property of Bill Newkirk. =wayne= |
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| (1194848) | |
Re: IND accident of 1936 |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Dec 28 20:52:52 2012, in response to IND accident of 1936, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Fri Dec 28 20:46:09 2012. Ouch!! Oooch!!!! Can you imagine if those had been Triplexes? The crash would have been as loud as the Krakatoa explosion!:) |
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| (1194854) | |
Re: IND accident of 1936 |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Dec 28 20:56:24 2012, in response to IND accident of 1936, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Fri Dec 28 20:46:09 2012. Wow ... that is some truly impressive "car-nage" ... |
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| (1194858) | |
Re: IND accident of 1936 |
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Posted by Dj Hammers on Fri Dec 28 21:06:46 2012, in response to IND accident of 1936, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Fri Dec 28 20:46:09 2012. WOW. Check out car 378 where the side of the car meets the floor... all the rivets broke clean off! |
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| (1194872) | |
Re: IND accident of 1936 |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Dec 28 21:36:45 2012, in response to Re: IND accident of 1936, posted by Dj Hammers on Fri Dec 28 21:06:46 2012. Actually, they tore right through the steel ... |
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| (1194876) | |
Re: IND accident of 1936 |
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Posted by Dj Hammers on Fri Dec 28 21:43:58 2012, in response to Re: IND accident of 1936, posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Dec 28 21:36:45 2012. wow.... |
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| (1194878) | |
Re: IND accident of 1936 |
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Posted by gbs on Fri Dec 28 21:47:38 2012, in response to IND accident of 1936, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Fri Dec 28 20:46:09 2012. What are the details of that accident? A Google search points only to this very post, and nycsubway.org says only that "212, 378, 472, Scrapped after collision 2/17/1936."Is that between 4th and 7th Avenues under 9th Street? Were the trains in service? |
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| (1194879) | |
Re: IND accident of 1936 |
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Posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Fri Dec 28 21:49:46 2012, in response to Re: IND accident of 1936, posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Dec 28 21:36:45 2012. That's #378's sill you see sloping downwards - no doubt back a ways is a huge crack across the entire width of the car. And the signbox you see (signed up as "C") looks to belong to #472. Imagine if this had happened to a train loaded with passengers. If I recall, there were a couple of crew that were killed in this accident; that can be independently confirmed.Similar accident in DC - November 3, 2004 - resulted in a telescope, and the June 22, 2009 crash did as well. NYCT B division - crash on the Willy B came close to a telescope - a carbody "invasion" of R42 #4664 by R40M #4461. But that's as close at it's come since this wreck. wayne |
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| (1194880) | |
Re: IND accident of 1936 |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Dec 28 21:52:01 2012, in response to Re: IND accident of 1936, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Fri Dec 28 21:49:46 2012. Ah ... I was under the impression that it was a layup that lost air and took off like arnines would do after an hour or so with the compressors off. Down the hill, keerash. |
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| (1194884) | |
Re: IND accident of 1936 |
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Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Fri Dec 28 22:12:28 2012, in response to Re: IND accident of 1936, posted by gbs on Fri Dec 28 21:47:38 2012. It was a southbound "C" train from Bedford Park Blvd that arrived at Jay Street and then discharged passengers. The train then deadheaded south via Track B-3 to layup at 7 Avenue. After entering the portal at 4 Avenue the motorman, Elliott Abbott keyed by two red signals then motorman saw another train coming right at him. He set the brakes and yelled to the conductor, James Reilly to jump. Abbott survived the collision but Reilly did not. The train which struck Abbotts train had been laid up several minutes earlier. The handbrakes had not been set on the runaway and the train coasted about 1500 feet before the collision.Although it is often referred to as the 'Smith Street Wreck" the collision actually took place under 9 Street between 4th Avenue and 7 Avenue stations. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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| (1194893) | |
Re: IND accident of 1936 |
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Posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Fri Dec 28 22:43:17 2012, in response to Re: IND accident of 1936, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Fri Dec 28 22:12:28 2012. Abbott's train on the left here, the runaway on the right and buried underneath?wayne |
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| (1194894) | |
Re: IND accident of 1936 |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Dec 28 22:44:55 2012, in response to Re: IND accident of 1936, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Fri Dec 28 22:12:28 2012. Wow ... That sure does explain the frantic with which we were taught to set handbrakes on arnines in schoolcar. "At LEAST three cars" was the rule. Typically we'd do five. |
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| (1194898) | |
Re: IND accident of 1936 |
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Posted by Edwards! on Fri Dec 28 22:50:34 2012, in response to Re: IND accident of 1936, posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Dec 28 21:52:01 2012. no lockdown..no handcrank..this is what happens.. |
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| (1194899) | |
Re: IND accident of 1936 |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Dec 28 22:52:42 2012, in response to Re: IND accident of 1936, posted by Edwards! on Fri Dec 28 22:50:34 2012. The cranks on arnines were truly something else. Even on that very last heave-ho, if you waited a couple of seconds for the chain to settle out, you'd get one more shove before you were done. Schoolcar scared the crap out of us over tightening those up just right. |
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| (1194908) | |
Re: IND accident of 1936 |
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Posted by Edwards! on Fri Dec 28 23:20:24 2012, in response to Re: IND accident of 1936, posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Dec 28 22:52:42 2012. my pops use to come home bitchin about em!i saw him one night climbing down from a R9 walking the catwalk to Halsey st swearing up a storm about the "mutha sucking freakin cranks..bust me in the mutha sucking damn leg....."as loud as he could! funny stuff if it was so scary.. |
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| (1194910) | |
Re: IND accident of 1936 |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Dec 28 23:43:25 2012, in response to Re: IND accident of 1936, posted by Edwards! on Fri Dec 28 23:20:24 2012. Oh, if you didn't have your wits about you at oh dark hundred when you went to unload them and had a firm grip on that handle when you kicked the dog on the floor to set them loose, that handle would whip around and pop you in the nuts something awful. :(That and the Popeye the sailor man you had to do to tighten them up in the first place. Seriously ... that grew hair EVERYWHERE. :) |
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| (1194918) | |
Re: IND accident of 1936 |
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Posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Sat Dec 29 00:03:34 2012, in response to Re: IND accident of 1936, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Fri Dec 28 20:52:52 2012. Triplexes wouldn't have telescoped. Maybe end damage - but not telescoping. I was under the impression that Arnines wouldn't telescope either, but this one proved THAT pet theory wrong. I shudder to think what would have happened had those trains been carrying passengers.wayne |
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| (1194920) | |
Re: IND accident of 1936 |
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Posted by monorail on Sat Dec 29 00:35:22 2012, in response to IND accident of 1936, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Fri Dec 28 20:46:09 2012. where's 472? |
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| (1194921) | |
Re: IND accident of 1936 |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Dec 29 00:44:28 2012, in response to Re: IND accident of 1936, posted by monorail on Sat Dec 29 00:35:22 2012. Inside 212. :( |
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| (1194922) | |
Re: IND accident of 1936 |
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Posted by WillD on Sat Dec 29 00:52:56 2012, in response to IND accident of 1936, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Fri Dec 28 20:46:09 2012. Looks like a crash with a WMATA Rohr car. For all the rhetoric whodathunk it that the vaunted Arnines were just the first in a long line of beer-can like subway car. |
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| (1194924) | |
Re: IND accident of 1936 |
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Posted by Edwards! on Sat Dec 29 01:32:19 2012, in response to Re: IND accident of 1936, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Sat Dec 29 00:03:34 2012. true..good thing it was the C at that time..and not an E train..which would have had passengers.. |
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| (1194937) | |
Re: IND accident of 1936 |
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Posted by chud1 on Sat Dec 29 05:35:42 2012, in response to IND accident of 1936, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Fri Dec 28 20:46:09 2012. i hate to be on that train.chud1 |
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| (1194946) | |
Re: IND accident of 1936 |
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Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Sat Dec 29 07:50:13 2012, in response to Re: IND accident of 1936, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Fri Dec 28 22:43:17 2012. Abbott's train on the left here, the runaway on the right and buried underneath?Wayne: I think so. Although I know the numbers of the three cars that were destroyed I wish that I had the consist numbers so we could see what their position were. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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| (1194949) | |
Re: IND accident of 1936 |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Sat Dec 29 08:14:05 2012, in response to IND accident of 1936, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Fri Dec 28 20:46:09 2012. Train fall off table, land on floor, go boom!ROAR |
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| (1194986) | |
Re: IND accident of 1936 |
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Posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Sat Dec 29 11:09:49 2012, in response to Re: IND accident of 1936, posted by monorail on Sat Dec 29 00:35:22 2012. 472's numberboard is visible below and left of 378's numberboard. It is at an angle because the whole end of the car was smashed downward by the force of 378 (and the rest of the train behind it) pushing it into 212.wayne |
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| (1195017) | |
Re: IND accident of 1936 |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Dec 29 13:00:36 2012, in response to IND accident of 1936, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Fri Dec 28 20:46:09 2012. Wow, that was no low speed impact. |
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| (1195080) | |
Re: IND accident of 1936 |
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Posted by SLRT on Sat Dec 29 17:07:38 2012, in response to Re: IND accident of 1936, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Dec 29 13:00:36 2012. Does anyone else find it ironic that the IND was Hylan's baby, he who a little more than 17 years earlier said "Wooden Cars!" when first told about the Malbone wreck? |
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| (1195081) | |
Re: IND accident of 1936 |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Dec 29 17:12:03 2012, in response to Re: IND accident of 1936, posted by SLRT on Sat Dec 29 17:07:38 2012. Could you imagine what would have been if those cars WERE made of wood? Anticlimbers and steel can only do so much, as LIRR and PRR wrecks that happened years after that demonstrated. |
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| (1195090) | |
Re: IND accident of 1936 |
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Posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Sat Dec 29 17:32:03 2012, in response to Re: IND accident of 1936, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sat Dec 29 13:00:36 2012. My guess is that the unattended train was rolling backwards at around 35 MPH, maybe faster. Think Woodley Park-Zoo (WMATA), 11/03/2004, but with the telescoped car being the stationary one.wayne |
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| (1195095) | |
Re: IND accident of 1936 |
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Posted by monorail on Sat Dec 29 17:54:40 2012, in response to Re: IND accident of 1936, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Sat Dec 29 11:09:49 2012. thanks |
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| (1195129) | |
Re: IND accident of 1936 |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sat Dec 29 19:52:58 2012, in response to Re: IND accident of 1936, posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Dec 29 17:12:03 2012. They would have been pulverized. |
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| (1195130) | |
Re: IND accident of 1936 |
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Posted by Joe on Sat Dec 29 19:53:00 2012, in response to IND accident of 1936, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Fri Dec 28 20:46:09 2012. On the R-160's, are handbrakes cranked manually when "parking" a train? (Isn't there a better term than parking?) |
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| (1195132) | |
Re: IND accident of 1936 |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sat Dec 29 19:54:14 2012, in response to Re: IND accident of 1936, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Sat Dec 29 00:03:34 2012. I don't suppose the BMT standards would have telescoped, either. |
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| (1195134) | |
Re: IND accident of 1936 |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sat Dec 29 19:57:14 2012, in response to Re: IND accident of 1936, posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Dec 28 22:44:55 2012. Pretty graphic, that's for sure. |
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| (1195135) | |
Re: IND accident of 1936 |
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Posted by monorail on Sat Dec 29 19:57:52 2012, in response to Re: IND accident of 1936, posted by Joe on Sat Dec 29 19:53:00 2012. 160's -no handbrakes |
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| (1195142) | |
Re: IND accident of 1936 |
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Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sat Dec 29 20:13:31 2012, in response to Re: IND accident of 1936, posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Dec 28 23:43:25 2012. Where's that can of spinach when you really need it?:) |
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| (1195152) | |
Re: IND accident of 1936 |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Sat Dec 29 20:38:47 2012, in response to Re: IND accident of 1936, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sat Dec 29 20:13:31 2012. Between your legs to absorb that handle if you prized yer jewels. :) |
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| (1195180) | |
Re: IND accident of 1936 |
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Posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Sat Dec 29 22:22:59 2012, in response to Re: IND accident of 1936, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sat Dec 29 19:52:58 2012. If an accident like this involved BU stock, the damage would have gone far beyond just the three cars. Telescoping and major carbody damage would have likely been visited on at least the first four cars of each consist. And what would have been in 212's position would have disintegrated.wayne |
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| (1195182) | |
Re: IND accident of 1936 |
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Posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Sat Dec 29 22:26:39 2012, in response to Re: IND accident of 1936, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sat Dec 29 19:54:14 2012. No, I don't think so either. In fact, the damage would likely been limited to the first few feet of each, with the colliding units bouncing off each other.I wonder - has there ever been a AB-on-AB rear-ender at any time during their storied careers? I can remember some examples of derailments and side impact damages, but not anything like this. And did they have as sensitive handbrakes as the R-1/9s seemed to have had? wayne |
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| (1195186) | |
Re: IND accident of 1936 |
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Posted by randyo on Sat Dec 29 22:39:39 2012, in response to Re: IND accident of 1936, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Sat Dec 29 22:26:39 2012. On most prewar NYCTS equipment, due to each car having only a single brake cylinder for all the wheels of the car, the hand brake applied the brake shoes to all 8 wheels of any car on which the handbrake were applied. On postwar cars that have 2 brake cylinders per truck handbrakes only apply on the #1 truck which is closest to the handbrake. Since the Multis had 2 brake cylinders per truck like postwar equipment, I would imagine that their handbrakes applied only to the closest truck to the handbrake also. The Bluebird did not have any handbrakes since their brake system was unique in that the shoes were applied to the wheels by spring pressure and released by air so all the shoes on the train would automatically apply due to lack of air somewhat similarly to the NTTs. |
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| (1195201) | |
Re: IND accident of 1936 |
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Posted by 3-9 on Sat Dec 29 23:42:33 2012, in response to Re: IND accident of 1936, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Fri Dec 28 22:12:28 2012. Wait a minute - if the motorman's southbound train was entering the portal at 4th Ave, wouldn't that mean he was going downhill? And that would mean the train that was loose was going uphill. How fast was that loose train going, without power? |
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| (1195204) | |
Re: IND accident of 1936 |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sat Dec 29 23:55:24 2012, in response to Re: IND accident of 1936, posted by 3-9 on Sat Dec 29 23:42:33 2012. Sounds like the lay-up was not secured and rolled down the hill. |
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| (1195206) | |
Re: IND accident of 1936 |
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Posted by VictorM on Sat Dec 29 23:58:47 2012, in response to Re: IND accident of 1936, posted by 3-9 on Sat Dec 29 23:42:33 2012. I thought so too, until I checked a topographical map. It appears 9th St at 7th Av is about 60 feet higher than 9th St at 4th Av so the tracks must be going uphill from 4th to 7th Avenues. As you come off the viaduct going from Smith to 4th Av you're going slightly downhill but then you must be going uphill. |
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| (1195257) | |
Re: IND accident of 1936 |
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Posted by 3-9 on Sun Dec 30 07:35:23 2012, in response to Re: IND accident of 1936, posted by VictorM on Sat Dec 29 23:58:47 2012. Interesting, that would explain it. Thanks! |
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| (1195258) | |
Re: IND accident of 1936 |
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Posted by BLE-NIMX on Sun Dec 30 07:37:13 2012, in response to Re: IND accident of 1936, posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Sat Dec 29 19:57:14 2012. One camera picture of THREE CARS! Motorman must have died instantly if not before that |
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| (1195263) | |
Re: IND accident of 1936 |
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Posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Sun Dec 30 08:25:05 2012, in response to Re: IND accident of 1936, posted by BLE-NIMX on Sun Dec 30 07:37:13 2012. One camera picture of THREE CARS! Motorman must have died instantly if not before thatOddly enough it was the motorman that survived and the conductor who was killed. He stated that he applied the brakes which stopped his train and yelled to the conductor to jump. Apparently the motorman jumped to the roadbed although he did suffer some injuries. Larry, RedbirdR33 |
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| (1195299) | |
Re: IND accident of 1936 |
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Posted by SLRT on Sun Dec 30 13:53:50 2012, in response to Re: IND accident of 1936, posted by Wayne-MrSlantR40 on Sat Dec 29 22:22:59 2012. I think you're just guessing. An actual analysis would include consideration of whether the crushing wood would have absorbed more energy than the steel, among other factors.If you accept that the most nearly analogous situation was the Malbone wreck, in which the second and third cars hit a stationary object at ~30 mph, no breaks set, with two heavier cars behind. The 2nd and 3rd cars were demolished beyond recovery (although there were survivors) the 4th car was not seriously damaged and the 5th car was intact. |
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| (1195302) | |
Re: IND accident of 1936 |
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Posted by New Flyer #857 on Sun Dec 30 14:34:59 2012, in response to Re: IND accident of 1936, posted by VictorM on Sat Dec 29 23:58:47 2012. But doesn't the train need to descend about 60 feet anyway to get down underneath 7th Ave? 4th Ave is above the street. 7th Ave is below. At the very least I expected no hill at all, if not downhill from 4th to 7th. |
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| (1195323) | |
Re: IND accident of 1936 |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Dec 30 16:16:12 2012, in response to Re: IND accident of 1936, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Sun Dec 30 08:25:05 2012. Years ago, I read an article abut the accident which speculated that the C/R might have actually been operating the train possibly in anticipation of taking the M/M exam which could explain whey the M/M survived and the C/R didn't. Of course the M/M would never admit that that even if it were true! |
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| (1195324) | |
Re: IND accident of 1936 |
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Posted by randyo on Sun Dec 30 16:16:59 2012, in response to Re: IND accident of 1936, posted by Larry,RedbirdR33 on Sun Dec 30 08:25:05 2012. Years ago, I read an article abut the accident which speculated that the C/R might have actually been operating the train possibly in anticipation of taking the M/M exam which could explain whey the M/M survived and the C/R didn't. Of course the M/M would never admit that that even if it were true! |
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