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| Re: LA, er Palmdale to LV High Speed Rail Link Closer to Being Built (1161289) | |
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Re: LA, er Palmdale to LV High Speed Rail Link Closer to Being Built |
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Posted by Rockparkman on Mon Jun 11 17:40:07 2012, in response to Re: LA, er Palmdale to LV High Speed Rail Link Closer to Being Built, posted by Train Dude on Mon Jun 11 08:10:32 2012. Good. |
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Re: Palmdale to LV High/Low Speed Rail Link Closer to Being Built |
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Posted by kp5308 on Mon Jun 11 17:52:51 2012, in response to Re: Palmdale to LV High/Low Speed Rail Link Closer to Being Built, posted by WillD on Mon Jun 11 01:19:52 2012. If it isn't going to be built then you're guaranteeing California will shell out even more money for highways and airportsNobody really knows that to be true. In fact, every time the HSR cost changes, the "no build" option magically goes up. 110 bil, then 175 bil. Gee Ma, why not just say one trillion. Amazing! Prices will be set by the market. If that is the case CAHSR will ALWAYS be subsidised. If the tickets reflect the FULL cost of running the system it will be priced out of the market. Remember the Authorty backed themselves into this corner... Experience indicates that the operational expense is far lower than any competing mode. That ain't the only expense. BY LAW this is supposed to be FULLY SELF SUPPORTING. C'mon Will. |
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Re: LA to LV High Speed Rail Link Closer to Being Built |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Mon Jun 11 17:56:40 2012, in response to Re: LA to LV High Speed Rail Link Closer to Being Built, posted by Train Dude on Mon Jun 11 17:17:10 2012. as is/has been the case with all of the "captive" local carriers connecting w/ the major airlines.And as to "non-stops" I have friends who have discovered that their BA SFO-London flight was heading to LA first to fill the other half of the plane. |
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Re: LA to LV High Speed Rail Link Closer to Being Built |
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Posted by 3-9 on Mon Jun 11 18:04:01 2012, in response to Re: LA to LV High Speed Rail Link Closer to Being Built, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jun 11 17:20:33 2012. Amtrak isn't running LA-LV right now.I meant the part from LA to Victorville, train vs. driving. |
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Re: LA to LV High Speed Rail Link Closer to Being Built |
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Posted by WillD on Tue Jun 12 00:19:52 2012, in response to Re: LA to LV High Speed Rail Link Closer to Being Built, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jun 11 16:33:40 2012. Somehow it's always fast enough when you're complaining our high speed rail lines are too expensive and foolishly proposing trains which will operate with average speeds above 90% of the MAS. Why is it different now? Is it because this project isn't a completely theoretical exercise and you might have to face the prospect of it being built? |
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Re: LA, er Palmdale to LV High Speed Rail Link Closer to Being Built |
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Posted by WillD on Tue Jun 12 00:31:28 2012, in response to Re: LA, er Palmdale to LV High Speed Rail Link Closer to Being Built, posted by Olog-hai on Mon Jun 11 08:08:07 2012. And the "high-speed" train as currently advertised operates at speeds "up to" a mere 150 mph.DesertXpress has stated that their ROW will not be restricted to 150mph operation, but that is the speed of the Regina-based trainsets they'll be operating initially. They have indicated that they will design the ROW for higher speeds and that something like California's HSTs will be able to complete the trip in less time once their service crosses Tehachapi. Makes not a bit of sense if you're building a dedicated right of way, since that's the speed that'd be permitted on a traditional right of way so long as the track is upgraded to Class 8, you have a trainset that meets Tier II specs, and you have all the associated signaling It makes perfect sense if you'd only read what you wrote. Nobody with any shred of intelligence is going to go with an alternative which requires they procure Tier II compatible equipment. Also, what existing tracks? Are you going to go to UP or BNSF and beg them for hourly slots over Cajon? You've already belittled UP's Soledad Canyon route used by the Antelope Valley line as being too slow. How would you expect any existing rail line between Los Angeles and Las Vegas support 150mph operation for less capital investment than DesertXpress proposes? |
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Re: Palmdale to LV High/Low Speed Rail Link Closer to Being Built |
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Posted by WillD on Tue Jun 12 00:38:31 2012, in response to Re: Palmdale to LV High/Low Speed Rail Link Closer to Being Built, posted by kp5308 on Mon Jun 11 17:52:51 2012. In fact, every time the HSR cost changes, the "no build" option magically goes up. 110 bil, then 175 bil.Again, can you not read? The estimates for the no-build option went up because the timetable over which the project will be built has been stretched out through obstruction by NIMBYs and Republicans. That means the alternatives must accommodate more traffic which the HSR system will be able to handle with aplomb. If that is the case CAHSR will ALWAYS be subsidised. Says who? Plenty of HSR systems are truly profitable around the world. CAHSR may have a very long repayment period, but even you admit they'll turn an operating profit, and that will lead to them repaying the bonds used to build the line. That ain't the only expense. Of course not, but it reduces the marginal cost per passenger, such that they can offer lower ticket prices without reducing revenue with which they'll repay bonds. |
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Re: LA to LV High Speed Rail Link Closer to Being Built |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Jun 12 17:26:24 2012, in response to Re: LA to LV High Speed Rail Link Closer to Being Built, posted by Train Dude on Mon Jun 11 17:17:10 2012. One carrier had to fly their SST subsonic quite a bit . . . |
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Re: Palmdale to LV High/Low Speed Rail Link Closer to Being Built |
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Posted by kp5308 on Tue Jun 12 18:37:08 2012, in response to Re: Palmdale to LV High/Low Speed Rail Link Closer to Being Built, posted by WillD on Tue Jun 12 00:38:31 2012. Again, can you not read? The estimates for the no-build option went up because the timetable over which the project will be built has been stretched out through obstruction by NIMBYs and Republicans.You just can't admit you are being lied to. Read THIS & maybe you will begin to understand how absolutely absurd this is. But I doubt it. You just wanna build no matter what reality tells us & then actually believe you can blame it on "NIMBYs & Republicans. The truth is all this was never supposed to come out. The Genie is not going back into the bottle Will. BTW when something like THIS shows up in the Huffington Post it is BAD. A little excerpt: If the bullet train system is built, 69 percent said they would never or hardly ever ride it. No respondents – zero percent – said they would use it more than once a week. Just 33 percent of respondents said they would prefer a bullet train over an airplane or car on trips between LA and San Francisco But I'm sure somehow the pollsters manipulated this in some way to get the desired result. |
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Re: Palmdale to LV High/Low Speed Rail Link Closer to Being Built |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Jun 12 18:59:46 2012, in response to Re: Palmdale to LV High/Low Speed Rail Link Closer to Being Built, posted by kp5308 on Tue Jun 12 18:37:08 2012. Me shocked. Why would HuffyPost manipulate polls to be against HSR? |
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Re: Palmdale to LV High/Low Speed Rail Link Closer to Being Built |
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Posted by Rockparkman on Tue Jun 12 19:21:45 2012, in response to Re: Palmdale to LV High/Low Speed Rail Link Closer to Being Built, posted by kp5308 on Tue Jun 12 18:37:08 2012. Find another hobby. |
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Re: Palmdale to LV High/Low Speed Rail Link Closer to Being Built |
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Posted by Jackson Park B Train on Tue Jun 12 20:21:24 2012, in response to Re: Palmdale to LV High/Low Speed Rail Link Closer to Being Built, posted by kp5308 on Tue Jun 12 18:37:08 2012. and how many people use Acela more than once a week? The point is that if the quick train existed some people might use it instead of a)not going at all, b)taking the slow train/bus combo down the valley (my usual method), d)drive, or e) fly which wastes slots at congested airports better allocated where no other options exist like across the Pacific.Now, as to cost, much like our long dreamed of SAS, and EVERY OTHER major public works project of my 67 years, the cost will be seriously greater than whatever estimates are given. Its DOD/MTA/Big Dig/NASA pricing. Finally, even if the corruption/waste reaches over 100% as happened with BART ($792 M turned into nearly $2.1 B) I still want to build it and shut down the short hop air service. Just my one person, one vote. |
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Re: Palmdale to LV High/Low Speed Rail Link Closer to Being Built |
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Posted by WillD on Wed Jun 13 00:44:29 2012, in response to Re: Palmdale to LV High/Low Speed Rail Link Closer to Being Built, posted by kp5308 on Tue Jun 12 18:37:08 2012. You just can't admit you are being lied to. Read THIS & maybe you will begin to understand how absolutely absurd this is.The only thing I understand is that you are apparently singularly incapable of comprehending a very simple fact. The CHSRA's comparison with other modes does so at equivalent levels of ultimate capacity, not at the predicted usage. If the CHSRA system is going to provide the capability to move a given number of people between SF and LA, then the alternative modes have to provide that same amount of capacity. I know you'd prefer a skewed study which compares apples to oranges, but that's not how EISes work. The truth is all this was never supposed to come out. The Genie is not going back into the bottle Will. It's written in the report! You can READ it right in there! There is nothing to hide because you can see the methodology by which they came up with the alternative analysis is clearly spelled out in their documents. Are you so paranoid that this whole process must be some sort of conspiracy? If you or your sources are not going to take the time to familiarize yourself with the documents put out by the CHSRA then you have nothing of value to add to this discussion. BTW when something like THIS shows up in the Huffington Post it is BAD. A little excerpt: If the bullet train system is built, 69 percent said they would never or hardly ever ride it. No respondents – zero percent – said they would use it more than once a week.But I'm sure somehow the pollsters manipulated this in some way to get the desired result. They're just repeating results of the USC/LA Times push poll. It's unfortunate that they're parroting the result of that poll rather than thinking critically about the questions being asked. But that's the media process in this day and age when 'Think Tanks' can produce documents to be commented on by biased reporters like the LA Time's Vartabedian, which can be picked up by otherwise non-aligned sources. All it does is produce a false consensus on a subject. |
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Re: Palmdale to LV High/Low Speed Rail Link Closer to Being Built |
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Posted by The Silence on Wed Jun 13 04:15:54 2012, in response to Re: Palmdale to LV High/Low Speed Rail Link Closer to Being Built, posted by WillD on Mon Jun 11 01:19:52 2012. My qulification is that I have actually got a nice peice of paper down stairs that has my name on it with the words "Bachelor of Arts" and "Political Science" under it. I actually spent four years of my life studing government and polictics. I'm not some idiot with an opinion*. I know a mis-managed trainwreck when I see one. We're talking about a state that's been paying it's workforce in IOUs.and you expect them to have no problem what so ever building an HSR network just about as big as the one in Germany? Throw in Desert Xpress to the proposed system and California would have the 5 largest HSR network in the world at the least. They're californians. Aside from the ones who hang out here, they're not very good at what they are trying to do. They are not as transit savy as this discussion is making them out to be. having a car is a more than just a transportation choice, it's a cultural thing for them, much the same way a riding the subway is for me, or for you pelting Santa Claus with batteries. *P.S. For the record I'm dyslexic. I has left me horrible spelling skills. |
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Re: Palmdale to LV High/Low Speed Rail Link Closer to Being Built |
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Posted by merrick1 on Wed Jun 13 06:50:03 2012, in response to Re: Palmdale to LV High/Low Speed Rail Link Closer to Being Built, posted by kp5308 on Tue Jun 12 18:37:08 2012. Do the 69% who say they will never use it travel between SF and LA at all? Providing another alternative is not going to cause people who don't make a particular trip to suddenly start traveling.That no one would use it weekly is hardly surprising. How many people travel between SF and LA weekly? It's not supposed to be a commuter train. 33% market share is pretty good. Did they ask about intermediate trips? Trains make intermediate stops. |
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Re: Palmdale to LV High/Low Speed Rail Link Closer to Being Built |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Wed Jun 13 12:37:06 2012, in response to Re: Palmdale to LV High/Low Speed Rail Link Closer to Being Built, posted by merrick1 on Wed Jun 13 06:50:03 2012. It's not supposed to be a commuter trainIf it runs at commuter train frequency, then what is it? CA doesn't have that many vacationers. Did they ask about intermediate trips? Trains make intermediate stops Each intermediate stop slows down average speed and negates the advantage of a high-speed train. Besides, the CAHSR website is telling a bunch of hooey when they cite a 1:24 running time between LA and Fresno (255 miles by rail), because that's a 182-mph average speed. You are not going to get that if you stop at Palmdale, Bakersfield and Visalia/Tulare/Harford stations; it'll be a 145-mph average speed at best, which expands that trip to 1:45 (ideally). If you really want a laugh, look at the computerized "visualizations" with the Tehachapi wind farms and the 30'+ track centers . . . The chief concern is not the train itself. It's the outrageous costs, that are so inflated that it's about ten times the cost per mile what the French would spend on the same kind of system. |
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Re: Palmdale to LV High/Low Speed Rail Link Closer to Being Built |
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Posted by kp5308 on Wed Jun 13 18:52:41 2012, in response to Re: Palmdale to LV High/Low Speed Rail Link Closer to Being Built, posted by WillD on Wed Jun 13 00:44:29 2012. It's written in the report! You can READ it right in there! There is nothing to hide because you can see the methodology by which they came up with the alternative analysis is clearly spelled out in their documents.As I said in a previous post, it was never supposed to be like this. And there is STILL plenty that is being hidden. Just look at the history of this whole project. Are you so paranoid that this whole process must be some sort of conspiracy? Really? Most of what I've read from your posts scream conspiracy. Republicans, NIMBYs, pollesters taking advantage of the "elderly".You really believe the truth wasn't known when Prop 1A went before the voters? If this was all wonderful & good, why was there a need to spend multiple millions on advertising? If you or your sources are not going to take the time to familiarize yourself with the documents put out by the CHSRA then you have nothing of value to add to this discussion. Those documents have been proven time & time again to be at best, shall we say, uhhh, I don't know, unreliable. THIS is just the latest! And it ain't no stretch that it is valid given the history of this whole charade. |
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Re: Palmdale to LV High/Low Speed Rail Link Closer to Being Built |
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Posted by kp5308 on Wed Jun 13 18:54:09 2012, in response to Re: Palmdale to LV High/Low Speed Rail Link Closer to Being Built, posted by Rockparkman on Tue Jun 12 19:21:45 2012. I'll take that into consideration. Done. I'm staying on. |
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Re: Palmdale to LV High/Low Speed Rail Link Closer to Being Built |
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Posted by WillD on Thu Jun 14 14:23:34 2012, in response to Re: Palmdale to LV High/Low Speed Rail Link Closer to Being Built, posted by kp5308 on Wed Jun 13 18:52:41 2012. As I said in a previous post, it was never supposed to be like this.Wasn't supposed to be like what? A completely open project bending over backward to accommodate its detractors even as they reveal themselves to be entirely irrational in their opposition? Again, you can find all the information you claim is being withheld within their documents. They are very explicit as to how their methodology has been arrived at. Most of what I've read from your posts scream conspiracy. Republicans, NIMBYs, pollesters[sic] taking advantage of the "elderly". It's already been established the poll was a push poll, your attempts to legitimize it only serve to make you look even more foolish on this matter. If this was all wonderful & good, why was there a need to spend multiple millions on advertising? Because the opposition is spending hundreds of millions of dollar repeating lies about the project. Those documents have been proven time & time again to be at best, shall we say, uhhh, I don't know, unreliable. Where is this proff? The opposition has claimed many things, but they've never managed to actually prove any of them. THIS is just the latest! And that idiocy will die as soon as they figure out the IOS is not the high speed rail line and thus does not need to comply with the 2 hour 40 minute SF-LA requirement. |
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DesertXpress changes name . . . |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Tue Jun 19 18:09:11 2012, in response to LA to LV High Speed Rail Link Closer to Being Built, posted by WillD on Sun Jun 10 17:54:30 2012. . . . it is now "XpressWest". Name change = bad sign. |
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Re: DesertXpress changes name . . . |
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Posted by WillD on Tue Jun 19 23:59:01 2012, in response to DesertXpress changes name . . ., posted by Olog-hai on Tue Jun 19 18:09:11 2012. Why is it a bad sign? They're positioning themselves as the builder or at least operator of a high speed rail network stretching from Tucson to San Francisco or Sacramento. Why should they retain the branding associated with the Mojave Desert when they stand to gain trackage rights over the CHSRA system into the verdant San Joaquin Valley?Along with the name change and new website they're now showing the Bombardier Zefiro rather than the Regina/CRH-1 derived HSTs they'd illustrated to this point. While the Zefiro 250 fits into the same class as the CRH-1, they include the Zefiro 350 in their illustrations of rolling stock. This and their EIS would indicate that they're building the line for 200-250mph operation, but applying to operate at 150mph for their initial segment. |
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Re: Palmdale to LV High/Low Speed Rail Link Closer to Being Built |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Thu Jun 21 23:22:29 2012, in response to Re: Palmdale to LV High/Low Speed Rail Link Closer to Being Built, posted by Olog-hai on Wed Jun 13 12:37:06 2012. If it runs at commuter train frequency, then what is it?Once it gets that frequency, it won't be long until it gets rapid transit frequency. Or does that only happen in Japan? :) |
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Re: Palmdale to LV High/Low Speed Rail Link Closer to Being Built |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Jun 21 23:46:42 2012, in response to Re: Palmdale to LV High/Low Speed Rail Link Closer to Being Built, posted by Wado MP73 on Thu Jun 21 23:22:29 2012. Yup, that's the only place. The Kodama locals (average speed 65 mph Tokyo to Shin-Osaka and 76 mph Tokyo to Nagoya, IINM, which makes their average speed like unto Acela Regionals) have to wait for the Nozomi expresses and whatnot. |
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Re: Palmdale to LV High/Low Speed Rail Link Closer to Being Built |
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Posted by Wado MP73 on Sat Jun 23 01:04:04 2012, in response to Re: Palmdale to LV High/Low Speed Rail Link Closer to Being Built, posted by Olog-hai on Thu Jun 21 23:46:42 2012. Way before the Nozomi days, when Hikari was non-stop between Nagoya and Tokyo, my father and I found it the hard way by switching to a Kodama at Nagoya that it was faster to ride a Hikari to Tokyo and buy a new ticket to go/track back on conventional JNR or private railway lines for almost anywhere between Odawara and Tokyo, including Yokohama and Kawasaki.Of course now that the demand is there, even Nozomis stop at Shin-Yokohama and you don't have to track back as much. Kodama is like a SEPTA NEC train at higher speeds. People usually don't ride it for more than a 100 miles. |
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