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| Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe (1156898) | |
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| (1156898) | |
Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Wed May 16 10:25:49 2012 Eight signal maintainers and two supervisors are expected to surrender to authorities this Friday, to face charges of submitting signal inspection reports that were allegedly never performed, according to sources close to the "signalgate" investigation.The workers will be charged with one felony count of records tamperingf and a misdemeanor count of official misconduct each at their arraignment. TWU officials blasted the absence of higher-level managers in the indictment, which was brought following a probe by the MTA Inspector General's office. |
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Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed May 16 13:19:41 2012, in response to Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe, posted by JayZeeBMT on Wed May 16 10:25:49 2012. TWU workers can't use the "I was only following orders" defense. |
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Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe |
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Posted by JayZeeBMT on Wed May 16 13:29:17 2012, in response to Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed May 16 13:19:41 2012. I wonder, given NYCT's autocratic management style... |
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Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe |
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Posted by randyo on Wed May 16 14:37:06 2012, in response to Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe, posted by JayZeeBMT on Wed May 16 13:29:17 2012. Although this activity is nowhere near the gravity of the Holocaust, the Nuremberg war crimes trials set the precedent that "following orders" when the individual subordinate is aware that his/her actions are illegal is not a viable defense. |
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Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe |
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Posted by WayneJay on Wed May 16 14:51:34 2012, in response to Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe, posted by JayZeeBMT on Wed May 16 10:25:49 2012. This could make for a heated debate from folks in the rank-and-file and others.I'm totally for the arrests, if the evidence supports the charge, but I also think they need to go after any bosses who are involved too. |
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Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed May 16 21:33:57 2012, in response to Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed May 16 13:19:41 2012. Why not?As a NYCT employee, if you do not follow the orders of supervision, you have committed insubordination. From there, the disciplinary machine goes into motion. |
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Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe |
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Posted by J trainloco on Wed May 16 21:38:57 2012, in response to Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed May 16 21:33:57 2012. That notion is preposterous. |
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Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed May 16 21:48:44 2012, in response to Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe, posted by J trainloco on Wed May 16 21:38:57 2012. That's how civil service works. It allows unfit managers to get their way until enough incidents catch up to them. |
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Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Wed May 16 21:55:50 2012, in response to Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe, posted by J trainloco on Wed May 16 21:38:57 2012. You ever been employed?? |
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Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe |
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Posted by J trainloco on Wed May 16 22:00:49 2012, in response to Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe, posted by Olog-hai on Wed May 16 21:55:50 2012. Obviously... |
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Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed May 16 22:01:24 2012, in response to Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe, posted by J trainloco on Wed May 16 21:38:57 2012. Obviously by that statement, you have never been employed.When the boss tells you to do a job, you do it. |
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Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe |
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Posted by J trainloco on Wed May 16 22:08:46 2012, in response to Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe, posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed May 16 21:48:44 2012. ??? Civil service affords rank-and-file employees FAR more protection than the usual job. I can be terminated tomorrow under the guise of 'we no longer need your position', but in civil service that simply doesn't happen.As randyo pointed out, you can't simply say "I was following orders". I have squandered hours of my life watching company training videos, reading printed packets and attending seminars (some hosted by MTA) that drive home the point that I have the individual responsibility to report wrongdoing, and if it's coming from my boss, then I need to report it to the company/agency ethics officer. |
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Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe |
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Posted by J trainloco on Wed May 16 22:12:34 2012, in response to Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed May 16 22:01:24 2012. I have been employed for quite some time now Bill. As I pointed out in my response to SelkirkTMO, being employed has forced me to attend numerous ethics training sessions that have told me I have the responsibility to do the exact opposite of what you are saying.When the boss tells you to do a job,you do it. So if you were told to do something you felt would jeopardize your life, or others, you would just go ahead and do it? |
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Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed May 16 22:23:32 2012, in response to Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe, posted by J trainloco on Wed May 16 22:08:46 2012. I think you're misreading what I meant ... in civil service, you sure do have the right to leave footprints on your manager's forehead. And there are watchdogs and inspectors general out the wazoo. Everything nice and neat on paper.Now TRY following that procedure, let me know what happens for real. I'll let some of the others here who are IN civil service tell you more. Although I had no issues myself when I spent 13 years in state service because I was high enough up the totem pole to be left alone and the wigs were afraid of me, rest assured I've seen plenty of foot soldiers gored just for the amusement of their supervisors. |
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Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe |
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Posted by J trainloco on Wed May 16 22:46:44 2012, in response to Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe, posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed May 16 22:23:32 2012. I understand what you're saying, but civil service employees have FAR more protections than private sector employees. If a manager told an employee to falsify a report, and an employee refused, in todays workplace climate, the watchdogs are all too happy to torch managers.And I've seen employees put their managers through the ringer in civil service... |
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Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed May 16 22:57:40 2012, in response to Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe, posted by J trainloco on Wed May 16 22:46:44 2012. Well then, things should turn out just fine for the maintainers if what they claim is true ... maybe I just have a little less faith than most when it comes to the MTA and its ability to screw their hourlies ... |
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Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe |
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Posted by bklynsubwaybob on Wed May 16 23:11:18 2012, in response to Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe, posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed May 16 22:57:40 2012. And they were all to willing to let my ass hang out to dry when I had a collision with one of their precious R46s. It took a lot of investigating and a real good Union rep to get my letter of exoneration. |
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Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed May 16 23:22:23 2012, in response to Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe, posted by bklynsubwaybob on Wed May 16 23:11:18 2012. AH ... didn't know you went down that route too. After all the BS and all the drama, when I got *my* invite back to the stand, I flipped them off. I had already been doing radio and liked it a whole lot better. :)But don't tell Train Dud ... he's a successful management type. LOL |
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| (1156993) | |
Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe |
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Posted by Train Dude on Thu May 17 00:25:42 2012, in response to Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe, posted by J trainloco on Wed May 16 22:08:46 2012. You need to give seldouche an incomplete for the course and ignore his statements on the subject. Seldouche still maintains that some of his co-workers sabotaged his train, causing it not to brake properly and that the union was involved. He'd be more convincing if he said that he saw a gremlin trying to pry the cover off of his brake valve. Sadly, anything he has to say is tainted by that very big, dull axe that he has to grind because he was fired. I know of no manager who would tell subordinates to fake inspection records - especially when the subordinates used the time to work other jobs or go home or tend to outside errands. |
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Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe |
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Posted by Train Dude on Thu May 17 00:28:36 2012, in response to Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed May 16 21:33:57 2012. Bill, you know that's simply not true. If an order is given that is against rules, against policy or unsafe, that fact is the affirmative defense for not following such orders. |
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Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe |
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Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Thu May 17 04:37:35 2012, in response to Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe, posted by Train Dude on Thu May 17 00:28:36 2012. There are some hourlies who are so dumb they'll do anything the supervisor says to do. They don't know better.I have a relative in CED for over 30 years. You have no idea how many times a supervisor pressure him to sign off on a car because it's needed for service yet he knows it's not ready. Sorry Steve, the supervisor will just get another sucker to sign off on it. |
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Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe |
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Posted by numbersix on Thu May 17 06:55:40 2012, in response to Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Wed May 16 13:19:41 2012. And management can say they were just giving orders. |
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Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe |
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Posted by merrick1 on Thu May 17 07:05:43 2012, in response to Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe, posted by numbersix on Thu May 17 06:55:40 2012. That would be the Pinochet defense. He claimed he never killed anyone himself. |
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Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe |
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Posted by TERRapin station on Thu May 17 08:32:32 2012, in response to Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe, posted by J trainloco on Wed May 16 22:12:34 2012. +1 |
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Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe |
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Posted by TERRapin station on Thu May 17 08:34:33 2012, in response to Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed May 16 21:33:57 2012. Why not? Because no higher ups were charged. That was his reason for saying that. |
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Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe |
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Posted by TERRapin station on Thu May 17 08:36:36 2012, in response to Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe, posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed May 16 21:48:44 2012. You're wrong as J successfully showed and is obvious to many of us. |
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Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe |
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Posted by TERRapin station on Thu May 17 08:37:34 2012, in response to Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe, posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed May 16 23:22:23 2012. Uh huh sure they invited you back. |
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Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe |
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Posted by TERRapin station on Thu May 17 08:39:41 2012, in response to Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe, posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed May 16 22:57:40 2012. Wow, way to miss the point COMPLETELY. These guys are in trouble because they apparently DID falsify reports. |
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Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe |
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Posted by TERRapin station on Thu May 17 08:42:02 2012, in response to Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe, posted by Olog-hai on Wed May 16 21:55:50 2012. You ever read this forum and understand what you are reading??? He has made it abundantly clear that he is employed. |
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Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe |
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Posted by orange blossom special on Thu May 17 08:44:58 2012, in response to Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe, posted by JayZeeBMT on Wed May 16 10:25:49 2012. interesting work ethic |
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Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe |
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Posted by chud1 on Thu May 17 10:53:29 2012, in response to Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe, posted by TERRapin station on Thu May 17 08:36:36 2012. imoa its time to pay da piper.chud1 |
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Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe |
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Posted by Train Man Paul : Metro-North's Best Conductor FOR ALL 3 LINES!!! on Thu May 17 11:41:53 2012, in response to Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Wed May 16 21:33:57 2012. You have a right to challenge an order that you know, by rule(s) and by established safety protocol(s) is unsafe, can endanger the employee, other employees, or results in breakage of established rules and regulations. Here on MNR and most railroad/transit agencies, it's known as a Good Faith Challenge. You just have to be ready to back up your actions with exact rules and regulations which support your refusal to follow an order seemed unsafe, rule violating, or both. |
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Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe |
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Posted by Train Dude on Thu May 17 14:05:46 2012, in response to Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe, posted by Bill from Maspeth on Thu May 17 04:37:35 2012. But, Bill, disciplinary actions are commenced at the managerial level. When I was "the man" I was responsible for every one of the 400+ cars in my fleet. It would be a cold day in hell before I'd ever allow a car to be flagged of of an inspection or not repaired once the defect was reported. I would and did go down in service when I had to and Herbie L. had to deal with it when I did. Once your supervisors know that they will not be backed up if they do it, then there is no incentive for them to "cheat".I can tell you that the last inspection supervisor who did flag an inspection (that I know about occurred in 1997) ended up with 30 days in the street and was grateful that he was not put back to the tools. No manager that I know is going to put his job and pension on the line. |
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Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe |
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Posted by Train Dude on Thu May 17 14:13:42 2012, in response to Re: Arrests Coming For Signal Maintainers, Bosses In Fake-Inspections Probe, posted by WayneJay on Wed May 16 14:51:34 2012. The problem is that management should be held responsible but not at the criminal level - which is what we are discussing here. Managers are responsible for the performance of their subordinates. If they were not doing quality control field audits and spot inspections, they were not properly managing their work units. While they were not criminally liable for the false reports, they were negligent and I'd be surprised if their heads didn't roll.The people here who are familiar with the mess in "Sub C" know that the man in charge was forced to go even though he was not involved in the shenanigans. He was found negligent and shown the door. So too shall the managers in that Signal group. |
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