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(1151011)

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R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956)

Posted by William A. Padron on Sun Apr 15 14:14:59 2012

And so, 56 years ago today on April 15, 1956, a train of R-10's are seen in center track layup storage at the Hinsdale Street station on the BMT Fulton Street elevated line in Brooklyn. It would be exactly two weeks later after this photo was taken that the IND Division would take over the outer portion of the route along Liberty Avenue in Queens, with the extension of the "A" line out to Lefferts Boulevard.

R-10 #3320, Hinsdale Street, BMT Fulton Line, 4/15/1956.

-William A. Padron
["Broadway Short Line"]



(1151022)

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Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956)

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Apr 15 15:37:02 2012, in response to R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956), posted by William A. Padron on Sun Apr 15 14:14:59 2012.

The center track (and the post dual contract rebuild) extended almost all the way to the Pennsylvania Ave station. Here's a good aerial view of the area in 1924:

http://gis.nyc.gov/doitt/nycitymap/index.jsp?z=8&p=1012416,184044&c=GIS1924

(1151047)

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Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956)

Posted by Joe V on Sun Apr 15 16:59:10 2012, in response to Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956), posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Apr 15 15:37:02 2012.

Was that among the 30 R10's that weer assigned to the BMT ? I see a route sign fo the 14.

How far into the old Fulton el is this ? I thought it could not handle "dual-contract" weight trains.

(1151050)

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Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956)

Posted by randyo on Sun Apr 15 17:15:13 2012, in response to Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956), posted by Joe V on Sun Apr 15 16:59:10 2012.

The dual contract rebuild extended from just west (RR north) of Nostrand to just west (RR north) of Penna Av. Those portions of Fulton could support the weight of steels. The portion of the structure east (RR south) of the old Grant Av (City Line) station which includes the portion taken over by the IND was entirely new construction since prior to the dual contracts, Grant was the terminal of the Fulton el.

(1151082)

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Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956)

Posted by Joe V on Sun Apr 15 19:05:53 2012, in response to Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956), posted by randyo on Sun Apr 15 17:15:13 2012.

OK, how far from the Canarsie was the photo taken ?

(1151085)

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Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956)

Posted by jabrams on Sun Apr 15 19:26:27 2012, in response to Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956), posted by Joe V on Sun Apr 15 19:05:53 2012.

Isn't that a BMT standard on the extreme left. It does appear to be coupled to the R10's

(1151090)

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Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956)

Posted by VictorM on Sun Apr 15 20:13:22 2012, in response to Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956), posted by Joe V on Sun Apr 15 19:05:53 2012.

about 500 feet.

(1151094)

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Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956)

Posted by gbs on Sun Apr 15 20:19:52 2012, in response to Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956), posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Apr 15 15:37:02 2012.

Why does the trackway next to the R-10 appear to be ballast instead of el structure, and where's the track? Was`this section abandoned way before the IND takeover?

(1151097)

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Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956)

Posted by tunnelrat on Sun Apr 15 20:23:34 2012, in response to Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956), posted by VictorM on Sun Apr 15 20:13:22 2012.

more like almost a mile.

(1151103)

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Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956)

Posted by VictorM on Sun Apr 15 20:58:46 2012, in response to Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956), posted by tunnelrat on Sun Apr 15 20:23:34 2012.

Check a map. Hinsdale St is only 2 short blocks east of Van Sinderen Av along which the Canarsie line runs.

(1151105)

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Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956)

Posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sun Apr 15 21:06:48 2012, in response to Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956), posted by jabrams on Sun Apr 15 19:26:27 2012.

Not to me.

Look at the gap between the panograph gates.

(1151128)

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Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956)

Posted by grimace1169 on Sun Apr 15 22:17:35 2012, in response to Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956), posted by gbs on Sun Apr 15 20:19:52 2012.

That's the platform.

(1151130)

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Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956)

Posted by grimace1169 on Sun Apr 15 22:20:25 2012, in response to Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956), posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Apr 15 15:37:02 2012.

The 2 square blocks south of Hinsdale St. station and n/o the old gas tank was the location of old AY yard.

(1151145)

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Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956)

Posted by jabrams on Sun Apr 15 23:48:18 2012, in response to Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956), posted by Bill from Maspeth on Sun Apr 15 21:06:48 2012.

I meant not coupled, based upon the spacing in the gates. Read twice, post once.

(1151150)

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Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956)

Posted by 3-9 on Mon Apr 16 01:07:33 2012, in response to Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956), posted by grimace1169 on Sun Apr 15 22:20:25 2012.

They must have been pretty thorough when they got of rid of the yard - by 1921 it was 2 empty lots with no remains of any spurs.

(1151151)

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Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956)

Posted by 3-9 on Mon Apr 16 01:09:47 2012, in response to Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956), posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Sun Apr 15 15:37:02 2012.

Interesting how the neighborhood around Hinsdale St changed. In 1956, there were still a lot of small buildings (residences?) around. By 1996, a lot of the areas were reduced to empty lots. By 2010, large industrial(?)/storage(?) buildings have sprung up.

(1151164)

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Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956)

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Apr 16 07:00:04 2012, in response to Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956), posted by Joe V on Sun Apr 15 16:59:10 2012.

The part of the Fulton El which was rebuilt to dual contract standards was built identically to the Broadway El.

(1151170)

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Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956)

Posted by MainR3664 on Mon Apr 16 07:38:49 2012, in response to Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956), posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Apr 16 07:00:04 2012.

Yeah, even the concrete station platforms are visible in that pic. The unrebuilt stations woud've had wood platforms.

(1151175)

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Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956)

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Apr 16 07:54:54 2012, in response to Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956), posted by MainR3664 on Mon Apr 16 07:38:49 2012.

Yup. The canopies, railings, lighting, mezzanines....everything, was built identically to the Broadway El rebuild. It was also identical to the construction on Jamaica Ave, except the Fulton rebuild had a center track.

(1151183)

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Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956)

Posted by William A. Padron on Mon Apr 16 08:12:56 2012, in response to Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956), posted by Joe V on Sun Apr 15 16:59:10 2012.

Yeah, one of the thirty GE R-10's (#3320-3349) that were sent to the BMT. Here is a train of them in #14 service...

R-10 #3327, Broadway Junction-Eastern Parkway, BMT Nassau St./Jamaica Line [no date given].

-William A. Padron
["Fulton-East N.Y."]



(1151228)

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Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956)

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Apr 16 12:42:24 2012, in response to Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956), posted by 3-9 on Mon Apr 16 01:09:47 2012.

Indeed, that area has gone from residential to industrial. Explains why patronage at Atlantic Ave on the L is only a fraction of what it was, even with the loss of nearby stations like Hinsdale St in the 50's.

(1151229)

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Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956)

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Apr 16 12:43:48 2012, in response to Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956), posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Apr 16 07:00:04 2012.

But, looking at the 1924 aerial maps, the Fulton St stations, while identical in appearance and length to the Broadway stations were built much closer together. Sometimes only 3 blocks apart.

(1151231)

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Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956)

Posted by Avid Reader on Mon Apr 16 12:49:35 2012, in response to Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956), posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Apr 16 12:43:48 2012.

Shorter people back then, had to take more steps to cover the distance!
It's easy, fuzzy math.

(1151234)

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Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956)

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Apr 16 12:54:31 2012, in response to Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956), posted by grimace1169 on Sun Apr 15 22:20:25 2012.

Also the 1924 image may have been taken at a time when the ENY station on the Manhattan Beach branch was still open for passenger service.

Speaking of LIRR yards, it you move northeast by about a mile, you can clearly see a long gone electric MU yard on the Atlantic Ave line, nearby where the old el station ramped down to the surface. It's now some sort of housing development bordered by Montauk and Berriman streets on the sides, Atlantic Ave to the north and Liberty Ave to the south. There's also an elevated coal chute near Van Siclen and Atlantic, where the McDonalds is today.

(1151236)

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Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956)

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Apr 16 13:07:23 2012, in response to Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956), posted by Avid Reader on Mon Apr 16 12:49:35 2012.

Heh. Well jokes aside, the Broadway El was rebuilt around the same time as they rebuilt Fulton.

(1151237)

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Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956)

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Apr 16 13:11:33 2012, in response to Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956), posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Apr 16 12:43:48 2012.

Interestingly, perhaps unlike the Broadway El and Myrtle el where they removed some stations (like Evergreen AVe on Myrtle and Park Ave on Broadway), it doesn't seem like they did that on Fulton.
The Fulton Rebuild bothers me to no end, being a big fan of the Eastern Division, that a beautifully rebuilt el was rebuilt and removed just 25 years later, one that was so identical to my favorite lines like Broadway El and Jamaica.
It's also so ironic that Fulton even got the express track which Jamaica never did....Jamaica needs it express track more than just about every el in the system (with the except of perhaps Flushing which obviously needs it more), and it was the only dual contract el other than Livonia that didn't get it. It's also one that would be heavily used today if it had been put in, unlike most of the others which sit idle.

(1151240)

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Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956)

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Apr 16 13:14:47 2012, in response to Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956), posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Apr 16 13:11:33 2012.

There was a stations that did not survive the rebuild. The wall maps at most Subway restaurants shows them clearly.

(1151245)

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Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956)

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Mon Apr 16 13:32:04 2012, in response to Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956), posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Apr 16 13:14:47 2012.

Wow, so they must have REALLY been close together on the original unrebuilt el. That said, when they rebuilt them, they were rebuilt to the lengths of 8 car, 67 foot cars, about 540 feet like the Broadway, Jamaica, and Myrtle North stations, whereas the original ones were probably much smaller than that.

(1151268)

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Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956)

Posted by tunnelrat on Mon Apr 16 14:48:40 2012, in response to Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956), posted by VictorM on Sun Apr 15 20:58:46 2012.

.

(1151269)

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Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956)

Posted by tunnelrat on Mon Apr 16 14:50:31 2012, in response to Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956), posted by VictorM on Sun Apr 15 20:58:46 2012.

don`t have to check a map,read the post wrong,of course your right.

(1151270)

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Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956)

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Apr 16 14:52:56 2012, in response to Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956), posted by VictorM on Sun Apr 15 20:58:46 2012.

I think he was referring to the length of the middle track. The aerial maps I've seen show the middle track extending quite a ways east of the Hinsdale St. station itself. The distance from Van Sinderen to the end of this track (also the end of the 1915 dual contract rebuild) could be about half a mile. I bet that track was covered end to end by Broadway Brooklyn locals taking either the midday or weekend off. Putting them in the ENY yard would have required a reverse move into and out of Atlantic Avenue.

(1151342)

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Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956)

Posted by randyo on Mon Apr 16 19:35:51 2012, in response to Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956), posted by grimace1169 on Sun Apr 15 22:20:25 2012.

I don't believe that yard was referred to as "AY." The only AY that I am aware of was the old yard at Rock Pky that was perpendicular to the Canarsie line and which was removed when the current yard formerly known as the "dump" was expanded.

(1151433)

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Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956)

Posted by tunnelrat on Tue Apr 17 11:40:46 2012, in response to Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956), posted by randyo on Mon Apr 16 19:35:51 2012.

I believe it was "AB" yard.

(1151445)

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Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956)

Posted by monorail on Tue Apr 17 12:39:09 2012, in response to Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956), posted by tunnelrat on Tue Apr 17 11:40:46 2012.

any photos of it?

(1151479)

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Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956)

Posted by randyo on Tue Apr 17 15:02:07 2012, in response to Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956), posted by tunnelrat on Tue Apr 17 11:40:46 2012.

That sounds a little better.

(1151480)

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Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956)

Posted by randyo on Tue Apr 17 15:02:21 2012, in response to Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956), posted by tunnelrat on Tue Apr 17 11:40:46 2012.

That sounds a little better.

(1151497)

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Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956)

Posted by Joe V on Tue Apr 17 17:42:43 2012, in response to Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956), posted by gbs on Sun Apr 15 20:19:52 2012.

I didn't realize any of the western portion of the Fulton Street el got the dual contract upgrade. Knowing that:

- the rest of the Fulton el should have been upgraded to Grant Ave
- the IND Fulton local terminal should have been set permanently at Bway Jct
- The IND subway east of Bway Jct should have been a 2 track local subway for A trains
- The Lefferst el should have had combined BMT Bway-Bklyn/Fulton el "14" locals to Lefferts and IND "A" service to the Rockaways.

(1151503)

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Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956)

Posted by Joe V on Tue Apr 17 17:58:32 2012, in response to Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956), posted by MainR3664 on Mon Apr 16 07:38:49 2012.

How did the Lefferts el east of Euclid get 10 car platforms if dual-contract only meant 8 * 67' ?

(1151504)

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Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956)

Posted by randyo on Tue Apr 17 18:01:10 2012, in response to Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956), posted by Joe V on Tue Apr 17 17:42:43 2012.

The problem with that would have been that there would have been an unnecessary duplication of services along Pitkin Av east of Bway Jct with a 3 track Fulton el above Pitkin and a 2 track subway beneath. Unfortunately, even though the city took over the BMT in 1940, and it might have been cheaper for the city to rebuild the Fulton St el to dual contract standards between Hinsdale St and Grant Av and connect the entire rebuilt structure to the IND terminal at Rocky Av via a portal similar to the one on the F line at McDonald Av rather than build an entire new subway under Pitkin Av, the anti el mentality of the city at the time precluded that from happening.

(1151505)

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Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956)

Posted by randyo on Tue Apr 17 18:04:19 2012, in response to Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956), posted by Joe V on Tue Apr 17 17:58:32 2012.

Like the Culver el which was taken over by the IND 2 years earlier, the platforms were lengthened to accommodate the 10 car IND trains. Originally, all of the Southern Division platforms were only able to hold 8 steels but were extended after Chrystie St to hold the IND standard of 10 X 60 ft cars.

(1151541)

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Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956)

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Apr 17 20:29:26 2012, in response to Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956), posted by Joe V on Tue Apr 17 17:58:32 2012.

They were extended just like all the rest of the B Division was (aside from the Eastern Division).

(1151547)

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Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956)

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Apr 17 21:05:33 2012, in response to Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956), posted by randyo on Tue Apr 17 18:04:19 2012.

The windscreens on the open edges of the Liberty Ave el stations obscure the distinct difference between the original station and the 1950's extensions.

(1151556)

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Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956)

Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Tue Apr 17 22:01:34 2012, in response to R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956), posted by William A. Padron on Sun Apr 15 14:14:59 2012.

Schmoozing with a BMT standard, I see.:)

(1151561)

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Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956)

Posted by Steve B-8AVEXP on Tue Apr 17 22:09:45 2012, in response to Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956), posted by randyo on Tue Apr 17 18:04:19 2012.

And I remember when the platforms at Union Square were being lengthened.

(1151569)

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Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956)

Posted by Fulton Frank on Tue Apr 17 22:28:22 2012, in response to Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956), posted by randyo on Tue Apr 17 18:01:10 2012.

Isn't the subway under Pitkin 4 tracks?

(1151585)

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Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956)

Posted by 3-9 on Wed Apr 18 00:32:50 2012, in response to Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956), posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Mon Apr 16 12:54:31 2012.

It looks like by 1951 some pieces of it were still there, including something that looks like part of the spur? By 1996 though, only something that looks like a yellow sidewalk is there, aside from the McD's.

(1151588)

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Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956)

Posted by 3-9 on Wed Apr 18 00:46:27 2012, in response to Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956), posted by randyo on Tue Apr 17 18:01:10 2012.

How different would that be! But how to properly utilize the 4-track tunnel already built under Fulton? They would have to, at least, change the el structure from Rockaway Ave to Atlantic Ave to 4 tracks. Then, somehow merge the extra track with the Canarsie line or somehow tie in tracks to Bway Junction and draw off traffic from Jamaica. Otherwise, leaving the el structure at 3 tracks west of Atlantic would just add another bottleneck on top of the one at Hoyt-Schermerhorn, making the express tracks even more useless than the ones between Bergen and Church.

(1151590)

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Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956)

Posted by 3-9 on Wed Apr 18 00:48:22 2012, in response to Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956), posted by Fulton Frank on Tue Apr 17 22:28:22 2012.

Up to Euclid, yeah.

(1151617)

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Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956)

Posted by MainR3664 on Wed Apr 18 08:29:46 2012, in response to Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956), posted by 3-9 on Wed Apr 18 00:32:50 2012.

Although I haven't taken the time to look at the images you describe (I'm totally unfamiliar with the area), I'm also going to suggest that folks on here consult www.historicaerials.com, which includes images from 1954, 1966 & 1980 (and sometimes other years), letting us see how the city changed in the years between 1951 and today.

I find the 1966 images very informative- most of the Moses highways are in place (as is Lincoln Center), but otherwise, the city is very different from today.

(1151651)

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Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956)

Posted by tunnelrat on Wed Apr 18 13:12:22 2012, in response to Re: R-10's At Hinsdale Street - BMT Fulton (4/15/1956), posted by monorail on Tue Apr 17 12:39:09 2012.

I,ve seen a photo of it in an old ERA bulletin when it was steam operated.it stretched from van sinderen & pitkin for 2 blocks east.iirc to alabama ave& south almost to sutter ave.no trains were in the yard & the only connecting track was true E/B.in one of the old ENY sites there is a photo of the yard taken in the 1930`s showing it with 3rd rail,again no trains in the yard.

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