[Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?

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[Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?
Posted by Gold_12TH on Sat Feb 18 20:27:13 2012 edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d There’s discussion again about bringing some Metro-North trains directly from Connecticut into New York City’s Penn Station. But will it happen? As with many good ideas that seem so easy, this one also has been studied thoroughly and found to be problematic in a number of respects. Gov. Dannel P. Malloy floated the idea in 2007, but it went nowhere, aside from an experiment by N.J. Transit to run trains from New Haven to the Meadowlands. Here are the reasons that daily commuter service isn’t yet possible: Inadequate equipment As any commuter on Metro-North can tell you, we don’t have enough seats for existing service to Grand Central, let alone expansion to new stations. It’s standing room only in rush hour and on weekends. Electricity Our existing fleet of MU cars cannot take a left turn at New Rochelle and head over the Hells Gate Bridge onto Long Island, then hang a right, in through the tunnels into Penn Station. The old cars’ overhead power catenary system operates under a different voltage than Amtrak. And in third rail territory on Long Island, even our new M8 cars use a different kind of shoe to contact the third-rail power source. The 2009 experimental direct train from Connecticut to Giants Stadium in New Jersey was actually run with New Jersey Transit railroad equipment which was only available because it was on weekends. Capacity Even if we had the cars with the right electrical equipment to make it over the Hells Gate Bridge and through the tunnels to Penn Station, there’s no room in the station; the station is full-up serving Amtrak, the Long Island Rail Road and N.J. Transit. If and when the $6.3 billion East Side Access project bringing some Long Island Rail Road trains into Grand Central is completed (many years from now), says the MTA, there might be room for Metro-North trains to access Penn Station. Cut LIRR service? Recently, the MTA has hinted they might run some Metro-North trains into Penn Station, but it would have to cut Long Island RR service. You can imagine the push-back that got, pitting one set of commuters against another. (See more on our Facebook page). Whatever the decision, it won’t be made by us here in Connecticut. Once again, Connecticut is being told by the New York MTA what our transportation future will be. Connecticut still has no say in the matter; not even a voting seat at the table, either on the MTA or the Metro-North boards. Connecticut may be the MTA’s largest customer, hired by CDOT to operate Metro-North trains in our state, but when it comes to important decisions, like expanding rail service to Penn Station, the MTA is clearly in control. Years ago, Gov. Rell acknowledged the inequity in this position and promised to fight for a seat on the MTA board. But nothing happened. Nor has Gov. Malloy said anything about this unfairness. So, just why is a New York agency still in charge of Connecticut’s transportation future? Jim Cameron has been a Darien resident for 21 years. He is Chairman of the Metro-North Commuter Council, a member of the Coastal Corridor TIA and the Darien RTM, but the opinions expressed here are only his own. You can reach him at CTRailCommuterCouncil@gmail.com or trainweb.org/ct. ---http://www.stratfordstar.com/opinion/columns/talking-transportation/72108-next-stop-penn-station.html
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Re: [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?
Posted by PATHman* on Sat Feb 18 20:36:57 2012, in response to [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?, posted by Gold_12TH on Sat Feb 18 20:27:13 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d As any commuter on Metro-North can tell you, we don’t have enough seats for existing service to Grand Central, let alone expansion to new stations. It’s standing room only in rush hour and on weekends. At Grand Central, people tend to crowd the first 2-4 cars while the front of the train has seats. Also, people have a phobia of the third seat
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Re: [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?
Posted by Edwards!* on Sat Feb 18 22:06:51 2012, in response to [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?, posted by Gold_12TH on Sat Feb 18 20:27:13 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Here's something you can do..stop running train into new york..
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Re: [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?
Posted by Avid Reader* on Sun Feb 19 10:58:56 2012, in response to [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?, posted by Gold_12TH on Sat Feb 18 20:27:13 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d I thought the new M8's had come equipped with DUAL service shoes. Yes or no? If yes, then its just car shortage and slot shortage. How does Amtrak deal with the different overhead current?
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Re: [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?
Posted by Dutchrailnut* on Sun Feb 19 11:09:09 2012, in response to [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?, posted by Gold_12TH on Sat Feb 18 20:27:13 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d >>>>So, just why is a New York agency still in charge of Connecticut’s transportation future?<<<<<<< Simple cause the CDOT operation is just a contract for MTA. and CDOT can take it to any other operator (they may no longer get acces to GCT however)
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Re: [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?
Posted by Broadway Lion* on Sun Feb 19 12:02:57 2012, in response to Re: [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?, posted by Avid Reader on Sun Feb 19 10:58:56 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d How does Amtrak deal with the different overhead current? AMTK uses big, specialized locomotives. The issue is not the different voltages on the overhead wire, a simple multi-tap transformer can cure that. The problem is, once upon a time AMTK told MNCR that it was going to convert from 25hz to 60hz service. So MNCR went and put in 60hz service on its lines in CT. AMTK did not follow through with its plans to convert the WAS-NYP line to 60hz, and still uses 25hz. A 25hz transformer requires several tons more iron in its core. For a locomotive, this is not such a big deal, they have been running on 25hz since day one, but for equipment DESIGNED for 60hz the weight penalties deny the option of 25hz service. AMTK and NJT both have equipment (locomotives) that have the heavier transformers to use either service, MNCR does not. MNCR has no electric locomotives at all. LION : ROAR
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Re: [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?
Posted by Broadway Lion* on Sun Feb 19 12:06:35 2012, in response to Re: [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?, posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Feb 19 11:09:09 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d If you drive your car in to New York City, you obey NYC laws, rules and parking regulations. If you drive your train into New York City you still must find a parking place for your train. ROAR
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Re: [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?
Posted by Olog-hai* on Sun Feb 19 16:54:26 2012, in response to [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?, posted by Gold_12TH on Sat Feb 18 20:27:13 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Now why did Mr. Cameron leave out the size difference between NYP and GCT? never mind it being a mere eight blocks south . . . ?
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Re: [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?
Posted by Avid Reader* on Sun Feb 19 18:13:25 2012, in response to Re: [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?, posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Feb 19 12:02:57 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Thanks , that explains alot.
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Re: [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?
Posted by italianstallion* on Sun Feb 19 19:00:36 2012, in response to Re: [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 19 16:54:26 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d AND the equivalent of 12 blocks west.
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Re: [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?
Posted by Olog-hai* on Sun Feb 19 19:08:03 2012, in response to Re: [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?, posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Feb 19 12:02:57 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d AMTK and NJT both have equipment (locomotives) that have the heavier transformers to use either service What "heavier transformers"? The Arrow IIIs can use both 25kV 60Hz and 12kV 25Hz; the only difference between them and the single-unit locomotives (which aren't that "big" in either dimensions or weight) is that the locomotives have the automatic variable-tap transformers that can change transformer taps on the fly; the Arrow transformer taps have to be changed manually. NJT was supposed to change the Arrows over to on-the-fly transformer tap changing according to the (now apparently defunct) plans to give them a second rebuild (especially since they botched the first rebuild so badly and left so much out).
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Re: [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?
Posted by Dutchrailnut* on Sun Feb 19 19:24:53 2012, in response to Re: [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 19 19:08:03 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d a 25 Hz transformer is almost twice weight of a 60 Hz transformer. Tap changers are for voltage, not for frequency.
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Re: [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?
Posted by Joe V* on Sun Feb 19 19:33:52 2012, in response to Re: [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?, posted by Avid Reader on Sun Feb 19 10:58:56 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d (I thought the new M8's had come equipped with DUAL service shoes.) Not the current ones being delivered. Possibly a latter tranche.
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Re: [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?
Posted by Joe V* on Sun Feb 19 19:35:40 2012, in response to Re: [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?, posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Feb 19 11:09:09 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d The New Haven trains were called "Yankee Trains" in New York Central days. MTA merely succeeded the Penn Central.
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Re: [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?
Posted by Olog-hai* on Sun Feb 19 19:36:50 2012, in response to Re: [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?, posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Feb 19 19:24:53 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d The locomotives still change on the fly. And the Arrows do have the transformers for both frequencies, as do (IINM) SEPTA's Siliverliner IVs.
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Re: [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?
Posted by Olog-hai* on Sun Feb 19 19:37:45 2012, in response to Re: [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?, posted by Joe V on Sun Feb 19 19:35:40 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d MTA merely succeeded the Penn Central Both Conrail and the MTA did, yes? until Conrail was told by the mighty central government to stop running passenger trains.
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Re: [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?
Posted by Olog-hai* on Sun Feb 19 19:45:10 2012, in response to Re: [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 19 19:36:50 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d PS. FWICS, 25-Hertz transformers work fine on 60 Hertz; it's the case of vice-versa that won't work.
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Re: [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?
Posted by Dutchrailnut* on Sun Feb 19 19:50:35 2012, in response to Re: [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?, posted by Joe V on Sun Feb 19 19:33:52 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d all cars made in lincoln DO have dual purpose shoes as I have shown in pictures a few weeks back. only cars not yet equiped are the first 38 cars made in Japan.
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Re: [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?
Posted by Dutchrailnut* on Sun Feb 19 19:52:18 2012, in response to Re: [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 19 19:36:50 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d your skirting the issue , the question was answered correctly, on locomotives its easier to place the heavy 25 hz transformers, on MU cars it gets harder as those cars are subject to weight restrictions.
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Re: [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?
Posted by Dutchrailnut* on Sun Feb 19 19:52:40 2012, in response to Re: [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 19 19:45:10 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d we know that.
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Re: [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?
Posted by Broadway Lion* on Sun Feb 19 21:01:18 2012, in response to Re: [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 19 19:45:10 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d BINGO.... MNCR has no 25hz transformers in anything.
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Re: [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?
Posted by Broadway Lion* on Sun Feb 19 21:03:06 2012, in response to Re: [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?, posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Feb 19 19:52:18 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d And yes, we know that older MU card did to it, but those cars were far lighter to begin with, and if there are any left are probably still lighter than the M fleet. AND... don't even ASK me how much a DC transformer Weighs. ROAR
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Re: [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?
Posted by SelkirkTMO* on Sun Feb 19 21:10:19 2012, in response to Re: [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?, posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Feb 19 21:03:06 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d You're giving Tesla a migraine with that last one. :)
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Re: [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?
Posted by Olog-hai* on Sun Feb 19 21:15:41 2012, in response to Re: [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?, posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Feb 19 21:01:18 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Maybe they do. 25Hz transformers do run on 60Hz, like I said.
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Re: [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?
Posted by WillD* on Mon Feb 20 02:47:53 2012, in response to Re: [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?, posted by Olog-hai on Sun Feb 19 21:15:41 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d That is not the case and the literature from both the MTA and MNRR reps at the Conn Commuter Rail Council during the design and build process for the M8s repeatedly stated that the M8 would not have a transformer core sized for 25hz power. Admittedly Kawasaki originally bid on the sub-130,000lb Silverliner V, and that's 25hz design, it would have been interesting to see the outcome of that design had the PA State Republicans not rigged the bid for Rotem, who quietly swept the more ambitious SEPTA requirements under the rug.
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Re: [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?
Posted by WillD* on Mon Feb 20 03:02:33 2012, in response to Re: [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?, posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Feb 19 12:02:57 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Gee, if only we knew of someone who had some pretty lightly used electric locomotives they'd recently disposed of. It'd be nice if they also had some coaches lying around which were discarded rather than rebuild. It'd be even better if that same agency (or Amtrak), was in a position to provide the operating assets, if not the operators (who may well come from MNRR) for a contract operation to provide both peak hour New Haven expresses out of NYP, and East Bronx local service with that rolling stock. Come on ConnDOT. The ball is in your court. If you really want this it's time to waddle your Tar Dropping asses up to the bar and start exploring the capital cost of gathering the pieces needed to bring this together. Wishing for the M8s to enter NYP isn't going to make anything happen. Start looking into backup plans for when the MTA mysteriously declares they're fully utilized on GCT runs and attempts to quietly drop the NYP/East Bronx service. How much could it cost to mothball and store a few trainsets of ALP44s and Comet IIIs for the next 5 years?
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Re: [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?
Posted by Joe V* on Mon Feb 20 06:56:39 2012, in response to Re: [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?, posted by Dutchrailnut on Sun Feb 19 19:50:35 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d How many are around now beyond the Japanese 38 ?
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Re: [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?
Posted by Dutchrailnut* on Mon Feb 20 07:04:58 2012, in response to Re: [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?, posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Feb 19 21:01:18 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Both the M2 and M4 have 25 Hz transformers but lost capability of running on that frequency due to other components not being capable like the Inverters that replaced the Motor Alternators.
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Re: [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?
Posted by Dutchrailnut* on Mon Feb 20 07:08:00 2012, in response to Re: [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?, posted by Joe V on Mon Feb 20 06:56:39 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d 78 total accepted with about 66 in daily service. A few on test train and last week 6 more got delivered. http://mta.info/mnr/html/newM8.html
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Re: [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?
Posted by Joe V* on Mon Feb 20 12:42:30 2012, in response to Re: [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?, posted by Dutchrailnut on Mon Feb 20 07:08:00 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d So pretty soon, the 80 bad M-2's should be gone.
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Re: [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?
Posted by JohnL* on Mon Feb 20 12:52:07 2012, in response to Re: [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?, posted by Broadway Lion on Sun Feb 19 21:03:06 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d AND... don't even ASK me how much a DC transformer Weighs. I would weigh one if I could ever find one.
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Re: [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?
Posted by Broadway Lion* on Mon Feb 20 15:58:18 2012, in response to Re: [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?, posted by Dutchrailnut on Mon Feb 20 07:04:58 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d Makes sense. Coos Cob was 25hz, was it not. But nothing in the MNCR barn can run on 25 now. (correct?) ROAR
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Re: [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?
Posted by Dutchrailnut* on Mon Feb 20 19:48:52 2012, in response to Re: [Op-ed] : Next stop Penn Station?, posted by Broadway Lion on Mon Feb 20 15:58:18 2012.* edf40wrjww2msgDetail:detailStr fiogf49gjkf0d correct on both.
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