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Traditional Catholicism beating up on "progressive" Catholicism in US

Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Apr 13 03:59:56 2012

Biden and Pelosi are still fighting the tide, though.

WSJ

HOUSES OF WORSHIP | April 12, 2012, 7:17 p.m. ET

Traditional Catholicism Is Winning

There were 467 new priestly ordinations in the U.S. last year, and Boston's seminary had to turn away applicants.

By ANNE HENDERSHOTT AND CHRISTOPHER WHITE
In his Holy Thursday homily at St. Peter's Basilica on April 5, Pope Benedict XVI denounced calls from some Catholics for optional celibacy among priests and for women's ordination. The pope said that "true renewal" comes only through the "joy of faith" and "radicalism of obedience."

And renewal is coming. After the 2002 scandal about sexual abuse by clergy, progressive Catholics were predicting the end of the celibate male priesthood in books like "Full Pews and Empty Altars" and "The Death of Priesthood." Yet today the number of priestly ordinations is steadily increasing.

A new seminary is to be built near Charlotte, N.C., and the archdiocese of Washington, D.C., has expanded its facilities to accommodate the surge in priestly candidates. Boston's Cardinal Sean Patrick O'Malley recently told the National Catholic Register that when he arrived in 2003 to lead that archdiocese he was advised to close the seminary. Now there are 70 men in Boston studying to be priests, and the seminary has had to turn away candidates for lack of space.

According to the Vatican's Central Office of Church Statistics, there were more than 5,000 more Catholic priests world-wide in 2009 than there were in 1999. This is welcome news for a growing Catholic population that has suffered through a real shortage of priests.

The situation in the U.S. is still tenuous. The number of American Catholics has grown to 77.7 million, up from 50 million in 1980. But the priest-to-parishioner ratio has changed for the worse. In 1965, there was one priest for every 780 American parishioners. By 1985, there was one priest for every 900 Catholics, and by 2011 there was one for every 2,000. In dioceses where there are few ordinations, such as New York's Rochester and Albany, people know this shortage well.

Still, the future is encouraging. There were 467 new priestly ordinations in the U.S. last year, according to a survey by the Center for Applied Research in the Apostolate at Georgetown University, up from 442 a decade ago.

While some of the highest numbers of new priests are in the Catholic-majority cities of Newark, N.J., and Philadelphia, ordinations in Washington, D.C. (18 last year) and Chicago (26) also are booming. The biggest gains are not only in traditional Catholic strongholds. In Lincoln, Neb., Catholics constitute only 16% of the population yet have some of the strongest numbers of ordinations. In 2011, there were 10 men ordained as priests in Lincoln.

What explains the trend? Nearly 20 years ago, Archbishop Elden Curtiss, then leader of the Omaha, Neb., diocese, suggested that when dioceses are unambiguous and allow a minimum of dissent about the male, celibate priesthood, more candidates answer the call to the priesthood. Our preliminary research on the correlates of priestly ordinations reveals that the dioceses with the largest numbers of new priests are led by courageous bishops with faithful and inspirational vocations offices.

Leadership and adherence to church doctrine certainly distinguish the bishop of Lincoln, the Most Rev. Fabian Bruskewitz. He made national news in 1996 when he stated that members of dissident Catholic groups including Call to Action and Catholics for Choice had automatically excommunicated themselves from the church.

Cardinal Francis George, the longtime leader of the Chicago archdiocese, once gave a homily that startled the faithful by pronouncing liberal Catholicism "an exhausted project . . . parasitical on a substance that no longer exists." Declaring that Catholics are at a "turning point" in the life of the church in this country, the cardinal concluded that the bishops must stand as a "reality check for the apostolic faith."

Such forthright defense of the faith and doctrine stands in clear contrast to the emphasis of an earlier generation of Catholic theologians and historians. Many boomer priests and scholars were shaped by what they believed was an "unfulfilled promise" of Vatican II to embrace modernity. Claiming that the only salvation for the church would be to ordain women, remove the celibacy requirement and empower the laity, theologians such as Paul Lakeland, a Fairfield University professor and former Jesuit priest, have demanded that much of the teaching authority of the bishops and priests be transferred to the laity.

This aging generation of progressives continues to lobby church leaders to change Catholic teachings on reproductive rights, same-sex marriage and women's ordination. But it is being replaced by younger men and women who are attracted to the church because of the very timelessness of its teachings.

They are attracted to the philosophy, the art, the literature and the theology that make Catholicism countercultural. They are drawn to the beauty of the liturgy and the church's commitment to the dignity of the individual. They want to be contributors to that commitment—alongside faithful and courageous bishops who ask them to make sacrifices. It is time for Catholics to celebrate their arrival.


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Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US

Posted by Rockparkman on Fri Apr 13 06:48:58 2012, in response to Traditional Catholicism beating up on "progressive" Catholicism in US, posted by Olog-hai on Fri Apr 13 03:59:56 2012.

Memo to Wall Street Journal:
You and your constituency are LOSING.
As for the Church, sure, let your Talban run things. The HUGE MAJORITY of your flick will LEAVE if they aren't respected.

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Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US

Posted by Fred G on Fri Apr 13 07:25:26 2012, in response to Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US, posted by Rockparkman on Fri Apr 13 06:48:58 2012.

Christianity = Sharia.

your pal,
Fred

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Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US

Posted by Fred G on Fri Apr 13 07:36:24 2012, in response to Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US, posted by Fred G on Fri Apr 13 07:25:26 2012.

That should say "Sharia LITE" lol

your pal,
Fred

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Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on "progressive" Catholicism in US


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Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Apr 13 07:59:22 2012, in response to Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US, posted by Fred G on Fri Apr 13 07:25:26 2012.

That isn't even remotely correct.

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Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US

Posted by Jeff Rosen on Fri Apr 13 08:08:48 2012, in response to Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US, posted by Fred G on Fri Apr 13 07:36:24 2012.

Neither post is funny.

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Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Apr 13 08:09:57 2012, in response to Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US, posted by Jeff Rosen on Fri Apr 13 08:08:48 2012.

Especially since there isn't even the remotest parallel.

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Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US

Posted by Fred G on Fri Apr 13 08:55:35 2012, in response to Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Apr 13 07:59:22 2012.

Insofar as their influence in our government, it is, IMO.

your pal,
Fred

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Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US

Posted by AlM on Fri Apr 13 09:01:31 2012, in response to Traditional Catholicism beating up on "progressive" Catholicism in US, posted by Olog-hai on Fri Apr 13 03:59:56 2012.

Yes, the Roman Catholic Church is doing a very good job of transforming itself into a much more conservative, but also much smaller, church.

Churches are still crowded with middle aged people who grew up with the liberal church. Most of their children aren't going to church except for weddings and funerals. And the middle aged ones are giving much less money.




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Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US

Posted by Fred G on Fri Apr 13 09:02:33 2012, in response to Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US, posted by Jeff Rosen on Fri Apr 13 08:08:48 2012.

So?

your pal,
Fred

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Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US

Posted by DAND124 on Fri Apr 13 09:51:23 2012, in response to Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US, posted by AlM on Fri Apr 13 09:01:31 2012.

IN what ways was the church more liberal?

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Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US

Posted by AlM on Fri Apr 13 10:07:10 2012, in response to Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US, posted by DAND124 on Fri Apr 13 09:51:23 2012.

It would take me more time than I have to make a list of regressions in the past 30 years. Let me mention a few that are obvious to the laity.

- Some bishops won't allow altar girls.

- The new English mass text is a horrible throwback that deliberately uses the 1950s phrases even when they are linguistically wrong. (Which matters because the bishops claim they are a linguistic improvement.)

- It used to be OK for a priest to be gay in his feelings as long as he remained celibate, just like it's OK for a priest to have heterosexual feelings as long as he remains celibate. Now such men are kicked out of the seminary.

- The rules for annulments have been radically changed. The concept of getting an annulment because there never really was a valid meeting of minds and hearts (I don't know the technically correct language) is gone.






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Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US

Posted by DAND124 on Fri Apr 13 10:09:22 2012, in response to Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US, posted by AlM on Fri Apr 13 10:07:10 2012.

ah ok.

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Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US

Posted by bingbong on Fri Apr 13 12:20:06 2012, in response to Traditional Catholicism beating up on "progressive" Catholicism in US, posted by Olog-hai on Fri Apr 13 03:59:56 2012.

Sure there's more interest in becoming a priest. If you make it, it's a guaranteed job. If it doesn't work out, they fire you. When the economy picks up, they'll be back to empty seminaries.

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Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US

Posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Apr 13 12:30:01 2012, in response to Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US, posted by Fred G on Fri Apr 13 07:25:26 2012.

"Sharia" shouldn't be a bad word. It's the Muslim version of what Jews call "Halakha." That doesn't make it tantamount to the whole religion.

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Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US

Posted by LuchAAA on Fri Apr 13 12:36:56 2012, in response to Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US, posted by AlM on Fri Apr 13 10:07:10 2012.

The presence of altar girls is fine. They allow it because it was tough getting altar boys during the peak of negative publicity. Allowing altar girls is not progressive. Allowing anyone on the altar to wear sneakers is, and I see too many altar boys and girls wearing them.

Catholics themselves are very centrist. Some like me are pro-abortion, could care less about civil union between same sex couples, and support the death penalty.



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Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US

Posted by Amanda on Fri Apr 13 13:53:50 2012, in response to Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US, posted by LuchAAA on Fri Apr 13 12:36:56 2012.

I'd get chastised if I ever wore sneakers or had wild nail polish - we were expected to look well put together when I was an altar server.

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Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US

Posted by LuchAAA on Fri Apr 13 14:03:08 2012, in response to Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US, posted by Amanda on Fri Apr 13 13:53:50 2012.

I saw it with my own two eyes at St. Patrick's in Bay Shore this year and see it all the time at Sacred Heart in Tampa.

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Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US

Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Fri Apr 13 14:10:27 2012, in response to Traditional Catholicism beating up on "progressive" Catholicism in US, posted by Olog-hai on Fri Apr 13 03:59:56 2012.

My mother-in-law will enjoy this article.

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Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US

Posted by Dan Lawrence on Fri Apr 13 14:30:31 2012, in response to Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US, posted by Fred G on Fri Apr 13 08:55:35 2012.

Yes. "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion."

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Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Apr 13 17:10:59 2012, in response to Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US, posted by Dan Lawrence on Fri Apr 13 14:30:31 2012.

???????????????????????????????

As usual, what does that have to do with this discussion?

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Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US

Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Apr 13 17:55:15 2012, in response to Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US, posted by Dan Lawrence on Fri Apr 13 14:30:31 2012.

What the hell does Congress have to do with this?!?

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Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US

Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Apr 13 17:56:16 2012, in response to Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US, posted by Rockparkman on Fri Apr 13 06:48:58 2012.

This is what you get with a "strong Germany", sucker.

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Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US

Posted by Rockparkman on Fri Apr 13 18:08:00 2012, in response to Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US, posted by Olog-hai on Fri Apr 13 17:56:16 2012.

Hey, I didn't throw WWII's victory away, DUMBASS Churchill and Truman did.

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Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US

Posted by Rockparkman on Fri Apr 13 18:19:35 2012, in response to Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Apr 13 12:30:01 2012.

But us Jews don't aspire to have Batei Din with the authority to cut people's hands off or behead them. Islamists do want Sharia Courts with those powers.

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Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US

Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Apr 13 18:36:12 2012, in response to Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US, posted by Olog-hai on Fri Apr 13 17:56:16 2012.

Relax ... Merkel won't be issued a cassock, and the Vatican won't be moving to Koln.

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Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US

Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Apr 13 18:57:06 2012, in response to Traditional Catholicism beating up on "progressive" Catholicism in US, posted by Olog-hai on Fri Apr 13 03:59:56 2012.

Nice.

The problem with religions that "change with the times" is that... well, then it's just another political structure. If man can change the rules, then what makes it divine in nature?
Traditional Catholicism is the only thing that keeps me from being agnostic.

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Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US

Posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Apr 13 19:09:45 2012, in response to Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US, posted by AlM on Fri Apr 13 09:01:31 2012.

Which is the only way it can survive. Whenever I go to a normal Catholic church (where rules are regularly violated and discussed as if they can be changed), I can't help but think if rules they don't like do not apply to them, well I guess the rules I don't like do not apply to me either, like the one saying I have to go every week, and more importantly (for the continued existence of churches): the one saying that I have to give 10% of my weekly wages to the collection plate.

10 full time minimum wage Catholics giving the proper 10%/wk (total: $13,600/yr) provide more support than 100 liberal Catholics who give $2/wk and pat themselves on the back (total: $10,400/yr). Traditional Catholics will eventually be the primary source of funding for the Church, and thus it will make more economical (as well as spiritual) sense to cater to them.

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Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US

Posted by Rockparkman on Fri Apr 13 19:23:11 2012, in response to Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US, posted by AlM on Fri Apr 13 09:01:31 2012.

Hopefully it will soon disappear.

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Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US

Posted by AlM on Fri Apr 13 20:10:39 2012, in response to Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Apr 13 19:09:45 2012.

So where do you find a Latin Mass? (I know there are a few around.)

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Latin Masses in NYC

Posted by Rockparkman on Fri Apr 13 20:12:33 2012, in response to Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US, posted by AlM on Fri Apr 13 20:10:39 2012.

http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2010/04/you-report-traditional-latin-mass-in.html

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Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US

Posted by Dan Lawrence on Fri Apr 13 20:41:23 2012, in response to Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Fri Apr 13 17:10:59 2012.

I was replying to Fred, not you.

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Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US

Posted by Dan Lawrence on Fri Apr 13 20:42:13 2012, in response to Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US, posted by Olog-hai on Fri Apr 13 17:55:15 2012.

I was replying to Fred, not you.

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Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US

Posted by DAND124 on Fri Apr 13 20:53:40 2012, in response to Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US, posted by Dan Lawrence on Fri Apr 13 20:42:13 2012.

wrong again Dan Lawrence why are you always wrong Dan Lawrence?

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Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US

Posted by Rockparkman on Fri Apr 13 21:09:55 2012, in response to Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US, posted by DAND124 on Fri Apr 13 20:53:40 2012.

Another McCarthyite heard from. Just societies jail their "libertarians"

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Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US

Posted by DAND124 on Fri Apr 13 21:18:05 2012, in response to Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US, posted by Rockparkman on Fri Apr 13 21:09:55 2012.

way to miss the point...

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Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US

Posted by Rockparkman on Fri Apr 13 21:19:43 2012, in response to Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US, posted by DAND124 on Fri Apr 13 21:18:05 2012.

Kiss my ass, If we don't have a government to DESTROY people of your ilk, we'll have ROLLERBALL.

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Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US

Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Fri Apr 13 22:26:38 2012, in response to Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US, posted by Henry R32 #3730 on Fri Apr 13 18:57:06 2012.

Traditional Catholicism is the only thing that keeps me from being agnostic.

You're a trad?

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Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US

Posted by AEM-7AC #901 on Fri Apr 13 22:47:21 2012, in response to Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US, posted by AlM on Fri Apr 13 09:01:31 2012.

Yes, the Roman Catholic Church is doing a very good job of transforming itself into a much more conservative, but also much smaller, church.

From some of the conversations that I've had with trads, they'd much prefer a smaller church that remains true to the teachings of the faith than being a large charge that panders to the feelings of those who belong within it. To them, it's not so much a matter of numbers, but dedication to the faith that matters, and there's no room for so-called Cafeteria Catholics.

Churches are still crowded with middle aged people who grew up with the liberal church. Most of their children aren't going to church except for weddings and funerals. And the middle aged ones are giving much less money.

Is that a quirk of the neighbourhood where you live? If your neighbourhood has a dearth of those in their late teens and early twenties, then you'll only see young people as vistors when they come back from college or visit family members or come for weddings, baptisms, or funerals. I'm in a suburban parish, and there are few in the mid to late 20s boat, but how many people in that age group are buying suburban homes in New York in the first place? Admittedly, though, I suspect that the some are simply non-religious or they go to Churches that are more accommodating of liberal values. Even a few may simply prefer non-Catholic churches that are simply more interesting.

As for myself, I still go to Church without being forced by my parents, but as somebody who doesn't follow the Church's teachings on certain topics, I'm tempted to go Anglican, but my mother would kill me if I ever left. I suspect that there are some who won't leave the Church because it's a part of their ethnic identity*, and leaving eats away that, and thus they feel that the Church should change to meet their needs, something that drives the trads crazy.

*I've found that even dropping hints of being Catholic to other whites changes their perspective of me. Coincidentally, choosing to marry a fellow Catholic is a good excuse to explain why I don't date most black women while chasing white women...



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Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US

Posted by Olog-hai on Fri Apr 13 22:50:12 2012, in response to Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US, posted by AlM on Fri Apr 13 09:01:31 2012.

Opinion is not the same as truth. Don't post one as the other, please.

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Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US

Posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Apr 14 02:03:01 2012, in response to Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US, posted by Rockparkman on Fri Apr 13 18:19:35 2012.

There are Jews who want to do that in Israel.

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Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US

Posted by Fred G on Sat Apr 14 06:51:23 2012, in response to Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US, posted by Spider-Pig on Fri Apr 13 12:30:01 2012.

True, and religions do have sects, but it seems that more Christian sects than not are highly motivated to tear down the wall between church and state, hence my "Sharia" comment and opinion.

your pal,
Fred

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Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Apr 14 07:16:11 2012, in response to Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US, posted by Dan Lawrence on Fri Apr 13 20:41:23 2012.

It's a public message board, and your statement was compltely irrelevant to the discussion. It's a free country, and people can respond as desired.

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Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US

Posted by Fred G on Sat Apr 14 07:26:41 2012, in response to Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Apr 14 07:16:11 2012.

It wasn't irrelevant tho.

your pal,
Fred

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Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Apr 14 07:58:51 2012, in response to Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US, posted by Fred G on Sat Apr 14 07:26:41 2012.

Sure it is. The religion clause is about making a religion a national religion, like the Church of England. It has nothing to do with what you said.

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Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Apr 14 08:14:06 2012, in response to Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US, posted by Spider-Pig on Sat Apr 14 02:03:01 2012.

This isnt Israel.

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Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US

Posted by Fred G on Sat Apr 14 08:36:20 2012, in response to Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Apr 14 07:58:51 2012.

We also bring it up when discussing separation of church and state, which I was talking about.

your pal,
Fred

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Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US

Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Apr 14 09:26:41 2012, in response to Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US, posted by Fred G on Sat Apr 14 08:36:20 2012.

And again, it has nothing to do with Catholicism and Sharia, and the Constitutional clause has to do with the establishment of a national religion.

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Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US

Posted by Fred G on Sat Apr 14 10:15:44 2012, in response to Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Sat Apr 14 09:26:41 2012.

Legislation based upon religion is part of establishing a national religion.

your pal,
Fred


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Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US

Posted by bingbong on Sat Apr 14 10:51:08 2012, in response to Re: Traditional Catholicism beating up on ''progressive'' Catholicism in US, posted by Fred G on Sat Apr 14 10:15:44 2012.

Even more specifically,legislation that restricts rights based on religion is part of establishing a national religion.

Couple of examples....one could say that "do not kill", part of the Judeo/Christian 10 Commandments is based on religion (true), so establishing law against murder is imposing religion. However, it is in the interest of an orderly society where citizens are enabled to live in peaceful freedom that people aren't running around killing each other willy-nilly without consequences. There are no national "blue laws", which exist to a greater or lesser extent (on Sundays, one can't order wine with dinner in South Carolina restaurants or buy beer before noon in NY, in Utah (until possibly very recently, IIRC they are looking to overturn the nation's most restrictive blue laws) all stores were closed) in states, but NOT nationally.

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