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ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta |
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Posted by Concourse Express on Thu Jul 7 01:55:11 2011 This damning article, IMHO, points out the many flaws of "teaching to the test" - substandard education and an increased temptation to fudge numbers; the article reveals that incidents like this one are widespread, but nothing as major as this. As a tutor for over 7 years, I've become quite passionate about education and anyone who knows my style knows I try to impart understanding of subject matter, not a mere exposition on "how to get the solution." That's why I detest education "reform" that results in curricula designed specifically to pass certain standardized tests (IMHO it results in a watering down of subject matter, making it harder for students to truly understand); further, such handicaps our students and ill equips them for the real challenges that they must face.Anyway, enough of my mini-rant...link here, story (with emphasis added by me) below: ====================================================================== America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta At least 178 teachers and principals in Atlanta Public Schools cheated to raise student scores on high-stakes standardized tests, according to a report from the Georgia Bureau of Investigation. By Patrik Jonsson, Staff writer posted July 5, 2011 at 5:37 pm EDT ATLANTA - Award-winning gains by Atlanta students were based on widespread cheating by 178 named teachers and principals, said Georgia Gov. Nathan Deal on Tuesday. His office released a report from the Georgia Bureau of Investigation that names 178 teachers and principals – 82 of whom confessed – in what's likely the biggest cheating scandal in US history. This appears to be the largest of dozens of major cheating scandals, unearthed across the country. The allegations point an ongoing problem for US education, which has developed an ever-increasing dependence on standardized tests. The report on the Atlanta Public Schools, released Tuesday, indicates a "widespread" conspiracy by teachers, principals and administrators to fix answers on the Criterion-Referenced Competency Test (CRCT), punish whistle-blowers, and hide improprieties. It "confirms our worst fears," says Mayor Kasim Reed. "There is no doubt that systemic cheating occurred on a widespread basis in the school system." The news is “absolutely devastating," said Brenda Muhammad, chairwoman of the Atlanta school board. "It’s our children. You just don’t cheat children.” On its face, the investigation tarnishes the 12-year tenure of Superintendent Beverly Hall, who was named US Superintendent of the Year in 2009 largely because of the school system's reported gains – especially in inner-city schools. She has not been directly implicated, but investigators said she likely knew, or should have known, what was going on. In her farewell address to teachers in June, Hall for the first time acknowledged wrongdoing in the district, but blamed other administrators. The Atlanta cheating scandal also offers the first most comprehensive view yet into a growing number of teacher-cheating allegations across the US, reports of which reached a rate of two to three a week in June, says Robert Schaeffer, a spokesman for the National Center for Fair & Open Testing, which advocates against high-stakes testing. It's also a tacit indictment, critics say, of politicians putting all bets for improving education onto high-stakes tests that punish and reward students, teachers, and principals for test scores. "When test scores are all that matter, some educators feel pressured to get the scores they need by hook or by crook," says Mr. Schaeffer. "The higher the stakes, the greater the incentive to manipulate, to cheat." Cheating in Atlanta Public Schools The 55,000-student Atlanta public school system rose in national prominence during the 2000s, as test scores steadily rose and the district received notice and funding from the Broad Foundation and the Gates Foundation. But behind that rise, the state found, were teachers and principals in 44 schools erasing and changing test answers. One of the most troubling aspects of the Atlanta cheating scandal, says the report, is that the district repeatedly refused to properly investigate or take responsibility for the cheating. Moreover, the central office told some principals not to cooperate with investigators. In one case, an administrator instructed employees to tell investigators to "go to hell." When teachers tried to alert authorities, they were labeled "disgruntled." One principal opened an ethics investigation against a whistle-blower. Investigations by the Atlanta Journal-Constitution (AJC) and state investigators found a pattern consistent with other cheating scandals: a spike in test scores in one critical grade would be followed by an equally dramatic drop the next year. A USA Today investigation in March found that erasure data in six states and the District of Columbia showed these "abnormal patterns," according to testing expert Thomas Haladyna at Arizona State University. The Atlanta testing allegations led to the first major law enforcement investigation of teacher cheating. Scandals in other states have typically been investigated by state officials. In response to recent teacher cheating allegations in Baltimore, Michael Sarbanes, the district's community engagement director, told District Management Journal, an industry publication for school administrators, that manipulating a test is "inherent in human nature, [although] we think people who do that are outliers." The high stakes for teachers Ten states now use test scores as the main criterion in teacher evaluations. Other states reward high-scoring teachers with up to $25,000 bonuses – while low scores could result in principals losing their jobs or entire schools closing. Even as the number of scandals grows, experts say it remains fairly easy for teachers and principals to get away with ethical lapses. "I think the broadest issue in the [Atlanta scandal] raises is why many school districts and states continue to have high-stakes testing without rigorous auditing or security procedures," says Brian Jacob, director of the Center on Local, State and Urban Policy at the University of Michigan. "In some sense, this is one of the least worrisome problems in public education, because it's fairly easy to fix. The more difficult and troubling behavior would be teaching to the test, which we think of as a lesser form of test manipulation, but which is much harder to detect, and could warp the education process in ways that we wouldn't like." In response to cheating scandals, some states and school districts have instituted tougher test-auditing standards, employing software that analyzes erasure rates and patterns. Meanwhile, the Obama administration is reforming NCLB to reduce pressure on teachers and principals. Education Secretary Arne Duncan said in June that NCLB “is creating a slow-motion train wreck for children, parents, and teachers.” On the other hand, an Obama administration proposal – to pay bonuses to teachers who improve test scores in their classes – may shift the stakes without lowering them. "The [Atlanta] teachers, principals and administrators wanted to prove that the faith of the Broad and Gates Foundations and the Chamber of Commerce in the district was not misplaced and that APS could rewrite the script of urban education in America and provide a happy, or at least a happier, ending for its students," writes the AJC's education columnist, Maureen Downey. "And that’s what ought to alarm us," adds Ms. Downey, "that these professionals ultimately felt their students could not even pass basic competency tests, despite targeted school improvement plans, proven reforms, and state-of-the-art teacher training." ====================================================================== Discuss. |
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Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta |
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Posted by Dan on Thu Jul 7 12:06:51 2011, in response to ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta, posted by Concourse Express on Thu Jul 7 01:55:11 2011. I wonder if the NYC schools will be faced with a similar scandal? I hear many NYC teachers complaining about "teaching for the test". I'm glad I was educated in the Catholic schools. |
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Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta |
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Posted by The Flxible Neofan on Thu Jul 7 13:52:50 2011, in response to ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta, posted by Concourse Express on Thu Jul 7 01:55:11 2011. Shocking and disappointing to see something happen on such a large scale, but I don't believe it's that surprising.I wonder what other ways there are to determine the quality of teaching a school provides outside of standardized tests. Even graduation rates can be innaccurate. |
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Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta |
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Posted by JayMan on Thu Jul 7 16:13:47 2011, in response to ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta, posted by Concourse Express on Thu Jul 7 01:55:11 2011. It's not teaching to the test that's the problem. They are trying to turn lead into gold. The crux of NCLB and the current educational policy in America is to improve the performance of black and brown students, getting them to perform like white students. Every flavor of the month hare-brained scheme has been tried to do this, and not surprisingly, they have all failed, and will continue to do so. If you ask teachers to do an impossible task and tie their jobs to it, this is the result. |
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Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta |
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Posted by JayMan on Thu Jul 7 16:14:20 2011, in response to Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta, posted by The Flxible Neofan on Thu Jul 7 13:52:50 2011. Again, testing is not the problem... |
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Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta |
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Posted by Scorpio7 on Thu Jul 7 17:03:47 2011, in response to Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta, posted by The Flxible Neofan on Thu Jul 7 13:52:50 2011. "I wonder what other ways there are to determine the quality of teaching a school provides outside of standardized tests."NOT having standardized tests. Here in Flanders, Belgium, we don't have standardized tests in high school. Teachers get a curriculum (which over here is the minimum they should teach, they are free to teach more), and they themselves make the tests. There are obviously guidelines as to what the tests should look like, and the teacher has to be able to show it is a representative test of the curriculum, but other than that, he or she chooses what questions are asked, and how they are asked. That gives a lot of freedom to the teachers, and while there are potential pitfalls, in reality the result is that most teachers make tests that are considerably harder than any standardized test, more specific, and focus much more on understanding than on 'ticking the right box' (hardly any of the tests are multiple choice, btw). The level of teaching also goes up, as teachers now have something to prove. One of the results is that, when Flemish students do take part in international standardized tests, they tend to score among the best. As for how the level is 'checked'? Schools get a thorough screening from the ministry of education every few years. They go through students' textbooks and notes (from the current and the last few years) as well as their tests, interview students and teachers, etc., to see if the school performs as it should. A school that's not up to standard will get a limited amount of time to set things straight, and if it doesn't, will lose funding and thus be forced to close. Other than that, an even better way in which quality is kept in check is simply through competition: parents are completely free to choose their children's school. A school that underperforms (something that travels quickly through word of mouth) will therefore lose students and ultimately, if it doesn't turn things around, go out of business. |
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Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta |
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Posted by JayMan on Thu Jul 7 17:16:57 2011, in response to Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta, posted by Scorpio7 on Thu Jul 7 17:03:47 2011. This is not horribly generalizable to the U.S., and really, has nothing to do with the problem here in the States, which is, the lower IQ's of black and brown people. |
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Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta |
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Posted by Scorpio7 on Thu Jul 7 17:37:44 2011, in response to Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta, posted by JayMan on Thu Jul 7 17:16:57 2011. Wow. Just.. wow.OK, explain this to me: when Belgian kids (WHITE ones!), who have lived in the U.S. for a few years and have gone to high school there, and who often were among the best of their class in the US, come back to Belgium, they invariably seriously lag behind their peers in every subject but English and PE. Oh, and since these are usually sons and daughters of diplomants, managers, or other people in high positions, they did NOT go to ghetto schools with lots of minorities. |
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Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta |
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Posted by Concourse Express on Thu Jul 7 17:41:38 2011, in response to Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta, posted by Dan on Thu Jul 7 12:06:51 2011. Not sure; wouldn't be surprised if some level of cheating was uncovered though. This NYDN article (though nearly two years old) gives some alarming statistics concerning the readiness of NYC HS grads for college-level work. Anecdotally, I'd say the quality of education at the middle school level has also dropped; my lil' bro is in a gifted class at his school and it seems they get too many exams and too few HWs (not to mention the difficulty of such assignments being far less than those of the gifted classes I was in when I was in middle school... |
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Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta |
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Posted by JayMan on Thu Jul 7 18:06:43 2011, in response to Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta, posted by Scorpio7 on Thu Jul 7 17:37:44 2011. I would like to see some more information about this phenomenon before I could speculate on its causes. Do you have some evidence of this? |
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Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta |
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Posted by Concourse Express on Thu Jul 7 18:24:23 2011, in response to Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta, posted by JayMan on Thu Jul 7 16:13:47 2011. It's not teaching to the test that's the problem.I disagree that it's not a problem, though I do acknowledge it isn't the only problem... The crux of NCLB and the current educational policy in America is to improve the performance of black and brown students, getting them to perform like white students. I assume you're talking about average performance among the races here, given that there are gifted members in each race? In any case, I have my own reservations with NCLB (one of which I made very clear - emphasis on standardized testing and the lowering of standards). I don't know if the lowering of standards is designed to "inflate" improvements among inner city/minority students but I'm against that regardless. Education shouldn't be bastardized, nor should the subjects taught be "modified" due to concern that certain students won't be able to "hang." While somewhat unrelated, I'm also against affirmative action since I feel it may "cheapen" the accomplishments of minorities who have demonstrated the ability to hang academically and/or professionally. If you ask teachers to do an impossible task and tie their jobs to it, this is the result. Agreed - which is why I feel that education curricula should not be tailored solely for standardized testing. If students aren't able to understand or at least try to understand material, regardless of how it's presented, it will be difficult to save them from failure. I've seen this myself in my tutoring; students who come just for "answers to class/HW questions" often do worse in their respective classes than those who try to make sense of the material in front of them. |
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Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta |
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Posted by Concourse Express on Thu Jul 7 18:41:47 2011, in response to Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta, posted by The Flxible Neofan on Thu Jul 7 13:52:50 2011. About graduation rates: depends on the methodology used. If the methodology varies from school to school and/or district to district, it may be hard to compare the stats directly...that doesn't necessarily mean the rates are inaccurate.Of course, given the propensity of certain districts to fudge numbers (as the article shows), one must take care to verify that they indeed are accurate... |
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Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta |
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Posted by JayMan on Thu Jul 7 18:53:42 2011, in response to Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta, posted by Concourse Express on Thu Jul 7 18:24:23 2011. Yes, obviously I'm talking about the average performance of the different races. I have reservations about teaching to the test, namely that it distracts from other useful subjects based on a ridiculous premise. That said, I don't have a problem with testing per se—I do have a problem of making testing king. Testing should be used as only an information-gathering device and not something that has consequences as it does now (holding school districts responsible for the quality of students they're given). I don't believe educational curricula should be identical, however a certain level of standardization (the "Three Rs" for example) should be in play.Of course, affirmative action should be eliminated for just the reason you describe. It does no one any favors in this day and age. I've seen this myself in my tutoring; students who come just for "answers to class/HW questions" often do worse in their respective classes than those who try to make sense of the material in front of them. I will say that this is an IQ thing. What you describe here is the difference between smart students and dumb ones. |
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Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta |
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Posted by salaamallah@hotmail.com on Thu Jul 7 18:54:46 2011, in response to ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta, posted by Concourse Express on Thu Jul 7 01:55:11 2011. i would not expect nothing better from atlanta |
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Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta |
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Posted by JayMan on Thu Jul 7 19:25:50 2011, in response to ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta, posted by Concourse Express on Thu Jul 7 01:55:11 2011. Here's a thorough examination of why one of the basic foundations to your complaint—that overemphasis on high-stakes standardized tests undercuts students ability to think—is false. Put you simply, you can't learn how to think abstractly—either you do or you don't. That determination is pretty much the definition of IQ.http://medicalhypotheses.blogspot.com/2009/07/replacing-education-with-psychometrics.html
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Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta |
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Posted by Concourse Express on Thu Jul 7 19:31:43 2011, in response to Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta, posted by JayMan on Thu Jul 7 18:53:42 2011. I have reservations about teaching to the test, namely that it distracts from other useful subjects based on a ridiculous premise. That said, I don't have a problem with testing per se—I do have a problem of making testing king. Testing should be used as only an information-gathering device and not something that has consequences as it does now (holding school districts responsible for the quality of students they're given). I don't believe educational curricula should be identical, however a certain level of standardization (the "Three Rs" for example) should be in play.I agree with this 100%; I'll add that other disciplines, such as music and the arts, shouldn't be written off - and neither should after-school programs in the same. I will say that this is an IQ thing. What you describe here is the difference between smart students and dumb ones. Not surprising, but I must ask: is there correlation between a student's motivation and IQ? I ask because I find - both for students and for myself - that interest in or passion for a subject leads to one working harder and more diligently on said subject. |
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Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta |
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Posted by Scorpio7 on Thu Jul 7 20:06:46 2011, in response to Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta, posted by JayMan on Thu Jul 7 18:06:43 2011. I don't think there are actually studies into 'the level Belgians having lived in the U.S. for a few years have when they come back', so no 'statistics' or any of that. Plenty of personal experience though. Being a high school teacher here, I've had quite a few students in that situation, and every single one faced the same problem. No exceptions. When I was in my senior year of high school, I went on an exchange with the U.S., and got a chance to visit and take some classes in a U.S. high school, and noticed the same thing: the seniors there were an average of 1 - 2 years behind on us.I realise that's all 'anecdotal', but I know quite a few people who have had the same experience in the U.S., and colleages, also from other schools, all confirm that in their schools too, students coming back from the U.S. face the same problems. |
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Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta |
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Posted by AMoreira81 on Thu Jul 7 20:13:23 2011, in response to Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta, posted by Dan on Thu Jul 7 12:06:51 2011. The DC schools are also encountering what could be a very similar scandal, with Michelle Rhee now appearing having to have resigned under a cloud of suspicion. |
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Posted by JayMan on Thu Jul 7 20:34:43 2011, in response to Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta, posted by Scorpio7 on Thu Jul 7 20:06:46 2011. If that's true, then it's really not significant and here's why: Since, as an all-white country, Belgium has a higher average IQ than does the U.S., and as such the curricula there can be more demanding than it is here in the States. Even in white school districts in the States, the curriculum could be dumbed-down compared to European and East Asian ones. |
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Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta |
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Posted by Easy on Thu Jul 7 20:43:26 2011, in response to Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta, posted by Scorpio7 on Thu Jul 7 17:37:44 2011. It's not just Belgium, it's the same for exchange students from many countries. Many foreign exchange students that come to the US don't even get to count their year here towards graduation because they are often studying material that they learned in their home country a year or more earlier.And if these kids are the sons of diplomats I can't imagine what city they would have been in where the schools didn't have lots of minorities unless they were living in the suburbs or went to private school. Almost any city in the US of any sizable population will have a significant number of minorities in their local schools and minorities will often be the majority. |
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Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta |
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Posted by AMoreira81 on Thu Jul 7 20:49:32 2011, in response to Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta, posted by Easy on Thu Jul 7 20:43:26 2011. Might this be a by-product of private schools being allowed to pick their enrollment, often leaving public schools with the leftovers? |
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Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta |
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Posted by JayMan on Thu Jul 7 20:55:55 2011, in response to Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta, posted by Easy on Thu Jul 7 20:43:26 2011. I can't imagine what city they would have been in where the schools didn't have lots of minorities unless they were living in the suburbs or went to private school. Almost any city in the US of any sizable population will have a significant number of minorities in their local schools and minorities will often be the majority.That's not exactly true of Northwestern cities. San Francisco, Portland, OR, and Seattle all have black populations less than 8% and Hispanic populations not much greater. Unless you're counting Asians, and as Luch would point out, when we're talking about minorities we don't mean them... |
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Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta |
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Posted by JayMan on Thu Jul 7 20:57:53 2011, in response to Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta, posted by AMoreira81 on Thu Jul 7 20:49:32 2011. And the cost, which also selects for affluent (hence high-IQ) parents, and hence high-IQ children.Nothing in education makes sense without talking about IQ. |
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Posted by Easy on Thu Jul 7 21:05:50 2011, in response to Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta, posted by JayMan on Thu Jul 7 20:55:55 2011. Portland schools are 28% black and Hispanic. Seattle's are 33% black and Hispanic. San Francisco's are 33%. Not a majority, but not insignificant. But I guess small enough that there are more majority white schools than most cities. |
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Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta |
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Posted by JayMan on Thu Jul 7 21:31:01 2011, in response to Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta, posted by Concourse Express on Thu Jul 7 19:31:43 2011. Not surprising, but I must ask: is there correlation between a student's motivation and IQ? I ask because I find - both for students and for myself - that interest in or passion for a subject leads to one working harder and more diligently on said subject.I have read a study that showed that all motivation can be explained by IQ. I've read another that showed that other factors, like the ability to delay gratification, correlate better with grades than IQ (though this was in students at a gifted school where the range of IQ was restricted). The bottom line is that school (and work and life performance) depends not just on IQ but on personality traits, most importantly conscientiousness. Conscientiousness is correlated with IQ, and as the article I posted explains, what modern education is primarily doing is selecting for high-IQ, conscientious, non-neurotic students (although neuroticism is also correlated with IQ, positive effects of higher conscientiousness often outweighs it). |
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Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta |
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Posted by JayMan on Thu Jul 7 21:45:53 2011, in response to Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta, posted by AMoreira81 on Thu Jul 7 20:13:23 2011. Surprise, surprise...I can't wait until all this education nonsense (NCLB, Race to the Top, etc...) unravels. The only problem is that it won't be pretty when it does... |
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Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta |
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Posted by SMAZ on Thu Jul 7 23:41:41 2011, in response to Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta, posted by Scorpio7 on Thu Jul 7 17:03:47 2011. I'm familiar with the method having gone to European schools, however while it offers a much higher level of knowledge to the average student than the American system, it is also rift with too much individual teacher subjectivity who can play favorites as well as inconsistency when applying his/her own standards and it is easily manipulated by cunning students.I would often get very good grades by simply bullshitting my way through tests and oral examinations because I could apply my own methods by adopting to different teachers simply by observing them. Other students who studied much harder than I did would fare worse because they lacked these kinds of skills and were also often timid which could give the impression of them not knowing the subject matter. |
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Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta |
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Posted by SMAZ on Thu Jul 7 23:57:35 2011, in response to Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta, posted by JayMan on Thu Jul 7 20:34:43 2011. Everything he's said is true.Take it from someone who knows and has attended both systems. American high schools are easy. To put it in perspective (and this is the first time I am saying this here), after 4th grade I went to Italian schools, was an above-average student (but nothing special) and had little or no access to things American (ahhh...the pre-Internet days). I came back here for the summer on vacation (planning to return to Italy to finish school) after my third year of HS. I took the GED on a whim just to see where I was, and MAXED it. needless to say I stayed and went straight to college that fall so that I could join the Army. My first semester I took four classes and got three As and a B. This after having only gone though 4th grade in America and as I said not reading, listening or speaking English with hardly anyone except when I use to visit here or viceversa, some American relatives of mine would visit us in Italy. In Italian schools I was just the equivalent of an A and B student like so many others. Here I was suddenly some kind of genius. |
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Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta |
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Posted by Concourse Express on Fri Jul 8 01:06:55 2011, in response to Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta, posted by JayMan on Thu Jul 7 21:31:01 2011. Interesting. Out of curiosity, do you have links to these studies you mentioned? I'd certainly like a look at the data and analyses......also, I finished reading that article you posted; it's quite a detailed, interesting read. There are several parts of the article that I will respond to in due time; it's pretty late now and I've not the time to look through the data I'm gathering in preparing to make my points without sacrificing sleep. (I've already sacrificed plenty of that in the course of attaining my Master of Engineering degree, completed over a month ago!) |
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Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Jul 8 01:07:55 2011, in response to Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta, posted by Concourse Express on Fri Jul 8 01:06:55 2011. Engineering? Cool! What branch? We'll have to get into that sometime. :) |
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Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta |
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Posted by Charles G on Fri Jul 8 03:44:40 2011, in response to Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta, posted by JayMan on Thu Jul 7 21:45:53 2011. Surprise, surprise...I can't wait until all this education nonsense (NCLB, Race to the Top, etc...) unravels. The only problem is that it won't be pretty when it does... No, the problem is that is wasn't pretty before it started and has remained "not pretty" but just in a different way. I can appreciate those such as the OP who lament "teaching to the test", but haven't seen anyone present a better mouse trap. What we had before -- tenured teachers who essentially blamed their students and passed them to the next grade -- wasn't working at all. How does one measure student performance without testing? How does one measure teacher/school/administrator performance without testing? |
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Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta |
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Posted by Charles G on Fri Jul 8 03:57:31 2011, in response to Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta, posted by Scorpio7 on Thu Jul 7 20:06:46 2011. Here in Switzerland, the basic education early on (through about age 11 or 12) seriously lags the US system. Essentially it's languages and some mathematics with a ton of fluff. It has been painful watching my kids be bored out of their skulls for 7 hours a day...During the equivalent of 6th grade, kids can take a placement exam for the Gymnasium (which, despite the name is the top academic placement). Only about 20% of the Swiss make it into Gymnasium -- but the education suddenly becomes far more intense and pretty quickly shoots past anything learned in an American middle or high school... |
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Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta |
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Posted by salaamallah@hotmail.com on Fri Jul 8 03:58:33 2011, in response to ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta, posted by Concourse Express on Thu Jul 7 01:55:11 2011. 
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Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Jul 8 04:12:08 2011, in response to Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta, posted by Charles G on Fri Jul 8 03:44:40 2011. A good start would be eliminating multiple choice and going back to practicals and essays. Problem there is that it requires a considerably larger amount of "grading time" for the teachers. I say give it to them. When tests are reduced to guessing from a quantity of four answers and the odds favor "b" then the tests are defective right there and what we're educating is a nation of future gamblers. |
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Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta |
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Posted by Charles G on Fri Jul 8 06:35:56 2011, in response to Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta, posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Jul 8 04:12:08 2011. Yeah, but...If you move to practicals and essays, you get the fox guarding the henhouse scenario. It would be easy to put pressure on Atlanta teachers to give full credit for a crappy essay -- a whole lot easier (I'd assume and hope) than it was to get them to actually erase answer sheets and fill in correct answers. |
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Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta |
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Posted by Scorpio7 on Fri Jul 8 07:05:43 2011, in response to Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta, posted by JayMan on Thu Jul 7 20:34:43 2011. "Since, as an all-white country, Belgium"LOL! God, you're clueless... |
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Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta |
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Posted by Scorpio7 on Fri Jul 8 07:16:48 2011, in response to Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta, posted by Easy on Thu Jul 7 20:43:26 2011. "And if these kids are the sons of diplomats I can't imagine what city they would have been in where the schools didn't have lots of minorities unless they were living in the suburbs or went to private school"Most of them lived in the suburbs. Due to the insane system where in many parts of the U.S. you have no choice but to go to the public school you're 'zoned' in, quite a few of them chose their home based on the performance of the schools they'd be attending. |
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Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta |
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Posted by Easy on Fri Jul 8 09:56:42 2011, in response to Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta, posted by Scorpio7 on Fri Jul 8 07:16:48 2011. That makes sense. |
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Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta |
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Posted by JayMan on Fri Jul 8 12:39:57 2011, in response to Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta, posted by Charles G on Fri Jul 8 03:44:40 2011. I can appreciate those such as the OP who lament "teaching to the test", but haven't seen anyone present a better mouse trap. What we had before -- tenured teachers who essentially blamed their students and passed them to the next grade -- wasn't working at all.The problem is ultimately not teaching to test or any rubbish like that (although that's an unfortunate consequence). The real problem is the foolhardy attempt to bring people of color up to speed (i.e., up to white levels), which isn't possible through education. It is foolish to hold teachers accountable for the cognitive ability of their students. See here for some more on the faulty mission of education in general. |
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Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta |
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Posted by JayMan on Fri Jul 8 12:40:55 2011, in response to Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta, posted by SelkirkTMO on Fri Jul 8 04:12:08 2011. In either case, we're measuring the students, and blaming the teachers... |
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Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta |
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Posted by JayMan on Fri Jul 8 13:36:37 2011, in response to Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta, posted by Scorpio7 on Fri Jul 8 07:05:43 2011. According to Wikipedia, only 8.6% of Belgium's population is of non-European ancestry. While that's probably larger than most European counties, it is far smaller than the U.S. |
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Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta |
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Posted by JayMan on Fri Jul 8 13:38:10 2011, in response to Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta, posted by Scorpio7 on Fri Jul 8 07:16:48 2011. Most of them lived in the suburbs. Due to the insane system where in many parts of the U.S. you have no choice but to go to the public school you're 'zoned' in, quite a few of them chose their home based on the performance of the schools they'd be attending.That sounds like many if not most reasonably affluent Americans... |
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Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta |
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Posted by Scorpio7 on Fri Jul 8 14:04:26 2011, in response to Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta, posted by JayMan on Fri Jul 8 13:36:37 2011. If we're going to quote wikipedia, that same wikipedia says the average IQ for Americans is 98, and 100 for Belgians. That's a very small difference, and not nearly enough to explain the difference in high school education levels.Trying to pin it all on race is, quite frankly, ridiculous. |
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Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta |
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Posted by JayMan on Fri Jul 8 14:32:44 2011, in response to Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta, posted by Scorpio7 on Fri Jul 8 14:04:26 2011. The average IQ of WHITE Americans is 100 (give or take one or two points depending on if the score is normalized to the American or British mean). Indeed, this is the definition of the IQ score. The average IQ of the country as a whole is a bit closer to 93. Because we have a significanty duller population, the rigor of American education typically pales in comparison to Europe and East Asia. |
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Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta |
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Posted by The Flxible Neofan on Fri Jul 8 14:42:49 2011, in response to Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta, posted by Scorpio7 on Fri Jul 8 14:04:26 2011. Trying to pin it all on race is, quite frankly, ridiculous.I agree. |
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Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Fri Jul 8 14:45:31 2011, in response to Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta, posted by The Flxible Neofan on Fri Jul 8 14:42:49 2011. You don't understand what JayMan is saying. He's talking about averages and that's it. He's not talking racial superiority or anything like that. |
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Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta |
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Posted by The Flxible Neofan on Fri Jul 8 14:45:56 2011, in response to Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta, posted by Scorpio7 on Thu Jul 7 20:06:46 2011. I've heard something like that in regards to Jamaica...but particularly with post-secondary education. |
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Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta |
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Posted by The Flxible Neofan on Fri Jul 8 14:54:22 2011, in response to Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta, posted by LuchAAA on Fri Jul 8 14:45:31 2011. He's not talking racial superiority or anything like that.How can his constant references to such "averages" to make points about the substandard quality of education in certain areas possibly not be interpreted as such? |
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Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta |
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Posted by LuchAAA on Fri Jul 8 14:56:57 2011, in response to Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta, posted by The Flxible Neofan on Fri Jul 8 14:54:22 2011. How can his constant references to such "averages" to make points about the substandard quality of education in certain areas possibly not be interpreted as such?It's something that fascinates him and gives him a better understanding of the world. |
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Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta |
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Posted by Scorpio7 on Fri Jul 8 15:06:59 2011, in response to Re: ARTICLE: America's biggest teacher and principal cheating scandal unfolds in Atlanta, posted by JayMan on Fri Jul 8 14:32:44 2011. "The average IQ of the country as a whole is a bit closer to 93."Source? |
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