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| Healthcare rationing: it begins (525302) | |
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| (525302) | |
Healthcare rationing: it begins |
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Posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Nov 17 13:38:27 2009 Fed panel recommends reducing number of mamograms.It's worthy to note that the United States has the lowest death rate from breast cancer in the world, lower than those socialist utopias in Europe. |
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| (525309) | |
Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins |
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Posted by busdude2 on Tue Nov 17 13:47:38 2009, in response to Healthcare rationing: it begins, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Nov 17 13:38:27 2009. It is stupid to change from 40 years to 50 year olds before getting a test. Cutting costs already at ladies expense. And they discourage self exams that's crazy. |
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Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Nov 17 13:52:01 2009, in response to Healthcare rationing: it begins, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Nov 17 13:38:27 2009. Yup, it all begins. |
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Re: Healthcare rationing: it began long ago |
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Posted by italianstallion on Tue Nov 17 15:36:37 2009, in response to Healthcare rationing: it begins, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Nov 17 13:38:27 2009. This is an independent panel that has nothing to do with the health care bill.Since we are still operating under free-market health principles, using your logic this action should be attributed to insurance companies not wanting to pay for mammograms to the under-50 set. Your "arguments" are getting stupider and stupider. |
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| (525365) | |
Re: Healthcare rationing: it began long ago |
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Posted by TheCiskoKid on Tue Nov 17 15:42:04 2009, in response to Re: Healthcare rationing: it began long ago, posted by italianstallion on Tue Nov 17 15:36:37 2009. On the contrary, this is a government convened panel that makes such recommendations. The panel has traditionally been non-political but it has not been totally non-political. In this rare instance, the panel is at odds with virtually the entire medical community. |
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| (525367) | |
Re: Healthcare rationing: it began long ago |
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Posted by italianstallion on Tue Nov 17 15:43:39 2009, in response to Re: Healthcare rationing: it began long ago, posted by TheCiskoKid on Tue Nov 17 15:42:04 2009. And for that reason, its recommendations (that's all they are) will probably be ignored. So much for rationing. |
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| (525370) | |
Re: Healthcare rationing: it began long ago |
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Posted by TheCiskoKid on Tue Nov 17 15:49:15 2009, in response to Re: Healthcare rationing: it began long ago, posted by italianstallion on Tue Nov 17 15:43:39 2009. So much for rationing now but if we ever do get Obamacare then this will become the rule instead of the abstraction. |
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| (525374) | |
Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins |
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Posted by Orange Blossom Special on Tue Nov 17 16:24:27 2009, in response to Healthcare rationing: it begins, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Nov 17 13:38:27 2009. it began during the h1n1 vaccine fiasco.Actually goes back deeper than that. |
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| (525381) | |
Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins |
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Posted by italianstallion on Tue Nov 17 16:34:07 2009, in response to Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins, posted by Orange Blossom Special on Tue Nov 17 16:24:27 2009. Yes, deeper into the history of private insurance companies. |
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| (525384) | |
Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins |
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Posted by Orange Blossom Special on Tue Nov 17 16:42:35 2009, in response to Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins, posted by italianstallion on Tue Nov 17 16:34:07 2009. Praise Allah the nazicrats are bringing back the HMO system in that disgusting bill.Just when 49 states purged it. Good job |
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| (525404) | |
Re: Healthcare rationing: it began long ago |
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Posted by SMAZ on Tue Nov 17 17:39:11 2009, in response to Re: Healthcare rationing: it began long ago, posted by italianstallion on Tue Nov 17 15:36:37 2009. This is an independent panel that has nothing to do with the health care bill.Since we are still operating under free-market health principles, using your logic this action should be attributed to insurance companies not wanting to pay for mammograms to the under-50 set. details.... |
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| (525419) | |
Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins |
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Posted by AMoreira81 on Tue Nov 17 18:48:15 2009, in response to Healthcare rationing: it begins, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Nov 17 13:38:27 2009. As I stated on another message board: If it is indeed true, why is there no point of contact to confirm or deny this report? It's up to the Associated Press to provide one. |
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| (525453) | |
Re: |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Nov 17 20:38:17 2009, in response to Re: Healthcare rationing: it began long ago, posted by italianstallion on Tue Nov 17 15:36:37 2009. This is a government panel however. |
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Re: |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Nov 17 20:39:10 2009, in response to Re: Healthcare rationing: it began long ago, posted by italianstallion on Tue Nov 17 15:43:39 2009. But once the government takes over healthcare, crap like this won't be ignored. |
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| (525458) | |
Re: Healthcare rationing: it began long ago |
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Posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Nov 17 20:40:07 2009, in response to Re: Healthcare rationing: it began long ago, posted by SMAZ on Tue Nov 17 17:39:11 2009. Huh? it's a government panel, and has nothing to do with the insurance companies. |
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Re: |
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Posted by SMAZ on Wed Nov 18 09:01:47 2009, in response to Re:, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Nov 17 20:38:17 2009. This is a government panel however.It has about the same legal authority as when the Surgeon General tells people to eat their spinach. |
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Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins |
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Posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Wed Nov 18 10:03:54 2009, in response to Healthcare rationing: it begins, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Nov 17 13:38:27 2009. It's worthy to note that all but two of the sixteen-member panel were appointed between 2002 and 2008. |
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| (525714) | |
Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins |
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Posted by SMAZ on Wed Nov 18 10:08:34 2009, in response to Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Wed Nov 18 10:03:54 2009. you're killing them man. Killing them! |
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Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins |
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Posted by SUBWAYSURF on Wed Nov 18 10:25:00 2009, in response to Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins, posted by RIPTA42HopeTunnel on Wed Nov 18 10:03:54 2009. He shoots...he scores. No more R16 in this post...guaranteed |
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Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins |
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Posted by bingbong on Wed Nov 18 11:25:23 2009, in response to Healthcare rationing: it begins, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Nov 17 13:38:27 2009. Rationing healthcare in America is handled by the insurance companies. They do their own hatchet job on it, believe me. Once they impose this restriction on doctors it will stick. Trust me. You only get the amount of care your insurance company is willing to pay for.Prescribing a 5 year course of tamoxifen to every woman just after menopause does even more to prevent and/or stop breast cancer in its earliest forms. There's two drugs that prevent prostrate cancer in men over 55, I forget what they are at the moment, the NYT did an article last week on it. Some cancers can be prevented to begin with. I'd rather take the pills than the test, over and over again, IMHO TYVM. One more note....this guideline only applies to those without a history of the disease in their family. |
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| (525741) | |
Re: Healthcare rationing: it began long ago |
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Posted by bingbong on Wed Nov 18 11:32:16 2009, in response to Re: Healthcare rationing: it began long ago, posted by TheCiskoKid on Tue Nov 17 15:49:15 2009. I don't think so. The "public option" will work on the same guidelines that Medicare does.....it pays the bill. The only exception is something that is flagged as possible fraud, and then a simple letter explaining the issue by the doctor usually clears the payment.I DO see private insurers running with this one....a mammogram costs about $500, so they recover $5000 per woman in this case. They will adopt it, even against the will of doctors. |
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Re: |
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Posted by bingbong on Wed Nov 18 11:34:18 2009, in response to Re:, posted by GP38/R42 Chris on Tue Nov 17 20:39:10 2009. What makes you think this will be ignored? The insurance companies reap $5000/woman over 10 years (at $500/mammogram) thanks to this. They won't let it go. |
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Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins |
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Posted by docstox on Wed Nov 18 11:46:33 2009, in response to Healthcare rationing: it begins, posted by Chris R16/R2730 on Tue Nov 17 13:38:27 2009. Government panel or not, there are facts to back up this decision.One out of around 1900 women have breast cancer detected by mammograms in the 40 to 50 bracket.One out of 1400 in the 50 to 60 group and one out of 325 in the over 60 group.It would seem that the data reflect that women 60 and over benefit most from the yearly mammograms. If women want to do the test more frequently under age 60, let them pay for it themselves.These would be the group of women WITHOUT the family history of the disease. I would include, however, every women, 40 and over, with a family history of the disease, for the yearly mammogram benefit. |
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Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins |
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Posted by italianstallion on Wed Nov 18 20:00:12 2009, in response to Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins, posted by docstox on Wed Nov 18 11:46:33 2009. This would constitute a rational analysis of the situation, as opposed to the ideological one posed by the original poster. |
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Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Nov 18 22:04:11 2009, in response to Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins, posted by docstox on Wed Nov 18 11:46:33 2009. if anything, since there are genetic and hereditary factors easily determined, those who are in that class should get them as indicated by a doctor. As for turning them into a community screening, it's unnecessary although a single BASELINE sample should be taken for comparison at a later time. It's curious though that it's the insurers who have been pushing this oxcart so hard ... |
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Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins |
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Posted by Train Dude on Wed Nov 18 22:11:39 2009, in response to Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins, posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Nov 18 22:04:11 2009. I'll bet michelle Obamma will get her baseline breast mamogram before age 41. |
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Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Nov 18 22:27:11 2009, in response to Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins, posted by Train Dude on Wed Nov 18 22:11:39 2009. Actually, it would make sense to get it even earlier if there's family history. Sister in law is a radiologist and would be VERY happy if she had one a few years old to overlay on a current shot ... would save a LOT of guessing. |
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Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins |
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Posted by italianstallion on Wed Nov 18 23:43:36 2009, in response to Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins, posted by Train Dude on Wed Nov 18 22:11:39 2009. The point being. . . ? |
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Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins |
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Posted by Train Dude on Wed Nov 18 23:46:17 2009, in response to Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins, posted by italianstallion on Wed Nov 18 23:43:36 2009. Fuck the proles! |
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Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins |
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Posted by italianstallion on Wed Nov 18 23:54:44 2009, in response to Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins, posted by Train Dude on Wed Nov 18 23:46:17 2009. This is just a recommendation, and prevents no one, even proles, from getting tests when they want. |
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Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins |
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Posted by docstox on Thu Nov 19 07:13:10 2009, in response to Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins, posted by SelkirkTMO on Wed Nov 18 22:04:11 2009. Yes, that baseline at age 40 for all women makes sense to me as a guideline in case pathology should occur later on.The insurance companies would jump on this new guideline gladly to save money but the data support the decision for eliminating non-family history women in the 40 to 60 age groups.Also, why expose yourself to radiation of a mammogram if it isn't necessary.My own personal experience with doctors is they want to protect their asses from trial lawyers so you get unecessary radiation.They wanted three CT scans on me, in 2000, 2001 and 2008 for what they thought was cancer, but I blew them off after doing my own research on the net.VIOLA, I ain't dead yet,LOL, so all that radiation of a CT scan was avoided.That's enough radiation to equal the exposure of a Hiroshima A Bomb victim.In fact, some studies suggest thast 10% of new cancers will be radiation induced from excessive use of CT Scans! Just my dime, anyhoo! |
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Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins |
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Posted by bingbong on Thu Nov 19 08:37:48 2009, in response to Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins, posted by italianstallion on Wed Nov 18 23:54:44 2009. Except the insurance company. Unless you have a spare $500. That's what a mammogram costs if you pay cash. |
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Re: |
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Posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Nov 19 10:38:51 2009, in response to Re:, posted by SMAZ on Wed Nov 18 09:01:47 2009. Or when she tells people that masturbation is a good form of same sex or that contraception should be given out free in schools (it is in NY!). |
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Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins |
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Posted by italianstallion on Thu Nov 19 11:32:39 2009, in response to Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins, posted by bingbong on Thu Nov 19 08:37:48 2009. Another reason we need health care reform. |
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Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins |
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Posted by bingbong on Thu Nov 19 12:25:15 2009, in response to Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins, posted by italianstallion on Thu Nov 19 11:32:39 2009. IAWTP. The government isn't going to impose that scheme in the"public option". |
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Re: |
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Posted by SMAZ on Thu Nov 19 12:32:57 2009, in response to Re:, posted by Spider-Pig on Thu Nov 19 10:38:51 2009. Or when she tells people that masturbation is a good form of same sex or that contraception should be given out free in schools (it is in NY!).yep but not on lunch trays. |
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Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Nov 19 17:32:52 2009, in response to Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins, posted by docstox on Thu Nov 19 07:13:10 2009. Actually, most scans these days are done with magnetic resonance imaging and have no ionizing radiation at all. But yes, it makes sense to at least baseline someone for future reference, something radiologists have been pushing for for years, and insurance companies have been fighting quarterly.And those pesky trial lawyers are a necessary evil when you can't get hospitals to standardize on something as pathetically cheap and simple as the color coding for those bracelets they make "guests" wear while in custody. Each color has specific meaning and different hospitals use different colors to indicate "Do Not resuscitate" or "fall hazard" and such. Then add to that the lack of a simple coding for "THIS leg comes off, not the other one" or an extra person on the surgical crew to count how many clamps went in versus how many came out. :( Trial lawyers wouldn't have anything to do if all those shortcuts weren't taken. :( |
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Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins |
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Posted by docstox on Thu Nov 19 18:54:09 2009, in response to Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins, posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Nov 19 17:32:52 2009. That description of the hospital you just gave makes me hope I croak in the tomato garden like in Godfather I when I am hopefully 90 years old and never have to darken a hospital door!My girlfriend just went through a horror story where a "simple" DNC procedure lead to a 3/4 inch perforation of her uterus and small intestine with a 7 day hospital stay.The bastards almost killed her.No lawyer seems to be interested because she signed a release before the procedure.Don't know where it's going to go.It's not that easy to sue as people may think! |
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Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins |
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Posted by italianstallion on Thu Nov 19 18:57:25 2009, in response to Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins, posted by docstox on Thu Nov 19 18:54:09 2009. It's not that easy to sue. Which is why tort reform is a red herring. |
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Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Nov 19 18:59:54 2009, in response to Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins, posted by docstox on Thu Nov 19 18:54:09 2009. Precisely ... which is why I'm always entertained by a political faction that has to peddle bullshit instead of solutions. :( |
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Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins |
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Posted by docstox on Thu Nov 19 19:09:31 2009, in response to Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins, posted by italianstallion on Thu Nov 19 18:57:25 2009. My girlfriend is finding that out now. |
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Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins |
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Posted by bingbong on Thu Nov 19 19:39:06 2009, in response to Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins, posted by italianstallion on Thu Nov 19 18:57:25 2009. Yes....and if they go to limit compensation, some patients, especially children who were maimed for life.....imagine your child becoming victim to improper doses of anesthesia during a tonsillectomy and coming out brain damaged. A seemingly outrageous judgment in a case like that would only resolve to bare-bones maintenance over a lifetime.There should also be some means for consumers to find out what doctors were involved in malpractice cases, and what the circumstances of those were. |
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Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins |
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Posted by Orange Blossom Special on Thu Nov 19 19:51:57 2009, in response to Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins, posted by docstox on Wed Nov 18 11:46:33 2009. England has denied young girls mammograms who thought they are at risk as they have a family history. The death panels there say no exceptions.Girls are 6 feet under now. Frankly, I don't know why we need gov't panels for such a thing. |
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Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins |
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Posted by AMoreira81 on Thu Nov 19 19:54:55 2009, in response to Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins, posted by docstox on Wed Nov 18 11:46:33 2009. I'm not so sure I can agree with you there...who would determine if there is a family history? What would be the standards for such. |
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Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Nov 19 20:05:55 2009, in response to Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins, posted by Orange Blossom Special on Thu Nov 19 19:51:57 2009. Perhaps because they're less likely to kill you than Aetna? :( |
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Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins |
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Posted by Orange Blossom Special on Thu Nov 19 20:18:42 2009, in response to Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins, posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Nov 19 20:05:55 2009. The sad thing is, everything is standardized almost, that all the insurance companies try to stay in line with national conventions. I'm not sure what they do that's not national policy(centers for medicare too) unless ther'es some employer exclusion on something.It's going to get worse. As the insurance companies are forced to save money as goodwill, and people like al frankin talks about capping administrative cost, that translates into new inventive ways to deny claims. Once no one in the companies get raises or office supplies, you have to cut somewhere to meet FEDERAL guidelines. Dunno about Aetna, but United pays for the administration of H1N1 vaccine even if your policy doesn't cover it. If the companies lose, I say they deserve it. I see no PR from these ppl |
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Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Nov 19 20:48:31 2009, in response to Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins, posted by Orange Blossom Special on Thu Nov 19 20:18:42 2009. Actually, the mess that is now known as the "Obama Healthcare plan" was almost exclusively written by the insurance companies and drug industry. Noriega would have been proud. And then, once they got everything they asked for, they then went and pissed on it anyway. :-\ |
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Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins |
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Posted by Orange Blossom Special on Thu Nov 19 21:57:14 2009, in response to Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins, posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Nov 19 20:48:31 2009. They wanted it originally. But I don't think they want what is actually coming. Like the non-nutjobs who voted for the guy, they didn't know how radical it all is.insurance companies did a big about face recently. |
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Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins |
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Posted by SelkirkTMO on Thu Nov 19 22:05:14 2009, in response to Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins, posted by Orange Blossom Special on Thu Nov 19 21:57:14 2009. Yeah, congress realized they were getting stuffed and withdrew a small fraction of the free bonus ... them zany insurance companies, it's all profit and bonuses or nothing at all. And even when they GOT the protection for antitrust, they continued to piss on it.As far as I'm concerned, let's go medicare and let them sell insurance in Louisiana. :) |
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Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins |
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Posted by Train Dude on Fri Nov 20 04:18:08 2009, in response to Re: Healthcare rationing: it begins, posted by italianstallion on Wed Nov 18 23:54:44 2009. That may be now but when we get obamacare, that will change. I heard Health and Human Services Secy, Kathlene Scebelius dodging and weaving to avoid giving a direct answer but she did say that for now, medicare & medicaide guidelines should not be affected. |
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