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Re: A honest cultural question... |
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Posted by Train Dude on Thu Apr 21 17:39:38 2005, in response to A honest cultural question..., posted by brooklynQB on Thu Apr 21 17:01:22 2005. Blacks earn 1/10 of what wealthy whites earn. Okay, what do wealthy whites earn? Where are you getting your 'facts' from? Do you realize that I earn less than 10% of some wealthy whites? And wealthy blacks? And wealthy hispanics. And wealthy Asians. And wealthy Arabs.Your question is meaningless except for it's potential inflamatory value. Is that civil enough for you? |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Thu Apr 21 17:49:47 2005, in response to Re: A honest cultural question..., posted by Train Dude on Thu Apr 21 17:39:38 2005. There is a serious disparity between whites and blacks in America in earnings, % in college, % in technical orr professional jobs, management and so on. It's not 10% but there is a real basis to brooklynQB's post.He showed a sincere curiosity about the subject, whereas you showed all the maturity of a 10 year old who's favorite relative just joined the Klan. But on this side of the message board, that's routine for you, so I understand. |
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Posted by M15 to South Ferry on Thu Apr 21 17:57:01 2005, in response to Re: A honest cultural question..., posted by RonInBayside on Thu Apr 21 17:49:47 2005. He's trying to prevent this from being another flame war, I don't think he was denying any of this flat out. |
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Posted by Train Dude on Thu Apr 21 17:57:26 2005, in response to Re: A honest cultural question..., posted by RonInBayside on Thu Apr 21 17:49:47 2005. Apparently you applaud ignorance and dispute true intellectual discussion. But we all know what your agenda is. |
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Posted by Train Dude on Thu Apr 21 17:58:33 2005, in response to Re: A honest cultural question..., posted by M15 to South Ferry on Thu Apr 21 17:57:01 2005. Don't waste your time. Ron has his own agenda and sometimes he takes the low road in its furtherance. |
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Posted by M15 to South Ferry on Thu Apr 21 18:05:31 2005, in response to Re: A honest cultural question..., posted by Train Dude on Thu Apr 21 17:58:33 2005. Such a shame. |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Thu Apr 21 18:06:20 2005, in response to Re: A honest cultural question..., posted by M15 to South Ferry on Thu Apr 21 17:57:01 2005. I don't read the original post as being intended for a flame war. But Train Dude's post certainly was.What the hell, it's a game either way. We can't take ourselves too seriously. |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Thu Apr 21 18:07:22 2005, in response to Re: A honest cultural question..., posted by Train Dude on Thu Apr 21 17:58:33 2005. Yeah, I have to consult with you about your tunnelling technology. I have yet to see anybody dig so low. I'm afraid I need lessons from you there. |
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Re: A honest cultural question... |
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Posted by Train Dude on Thu Apr 21 18:08:13 2005, in response to Re: A honest cultural question..., posted by M15 to South Ferry on Thu Apr 21 18:05:31 2005. More proof that the majority of liberals here will answer any fact-based argument with a personal attack. A practice we see on the big ploitical stage every day, as well. |
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Re: A honest cultural question... |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Thu Apr 21 18:08:25 2005, in response to Re: A honest cultural question..., posted by Train Dude on Thu Apr 21 17:57:26 2005. So you're really an intellectual in an ignoramus' business suit? Why didn't you say so in the first place? |
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Posted by Train Dude on Thu Apr 21 18:10:37 2005, in response to Re: A honest cultural question..., posted by RonInBayside on Thu Apr 21 18:08:25 2005. More personal attacks, ron? Just goes to show that a sheep-skin carries no implied dignity. |
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Posted by Charles G on Thu Apr 21 18:11:55 2005, in response to A honest cultural question..., posted by brooklynQB on Thu Apr 21 17:01:22 2005. Well, I'm not a fellow Black American but I'll throw my 2 cents in anyway (after all, this is SubChat -- when does anyone ever play by the rules?)I that you've either mis-interpreted the article or that the author needs to check his facts. There is no statistic (mean, median or mode) for which black earnings are 1/10th that of whites. Generally speaking, per capita income for blacks is usually somewhere in the neighborhood of 60-70% of that for whites. Much of that difference comes from differences in education levels. When you correct for education levels, the difference narrows but is definitely not eliminated. I can't remember exactly where, but I think I actually read recently that -- once you correct for education levels earnings for black females and white females are nearly equal. The remaining difference is explainable by an interaction of many factors -- some of which you listed and some not (the rate of black male incarceration is a huge factor in creating permanent income differences). Most studies that claim to have found answers beyond education level usually have an easily detectable bias (in any direction) that makes their conclusion somewhat questionable. I expect that the answers you get here will run the gamut -- some will claim racism is the reason. Others will claim that Blacks hold themselves down. And you'll hear everything else in between. I don't think there are any right or wrong answers because it's a little bit of a lot of things. CG |
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Posted by M15 to South Ferry on Thu Apr 21 18:12:00 2005, in response to Re: A honest cultural question..., posted by RonInBayside on Thu Apr 21 18:06:20 2005. Yeah, let's just let things be and drop this thread :) |
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Posted by UWS Greg on Thu Apr 21 18:14:41 2005, in response to A honest cultural question..., posted by brooklynQB on Thu Apr 21 17:01:22 2005. Dear BrooklynQB,Five responses to your sincere post preceded mine. I politely and humbly ask you to ignore all of them. Your post was emotional-- rather than statistical-- in nature but the respondants knew only how to respond with data, ignoring -- or not able to-- sense what prompted you to write. Not only volumes of books but entire college level curricula have been amassed trying to come to grips with the problems you cite: guns, violence, drugs-- which exist everywhere, of course, but the black community is particularly hard-hit. The numbers are, well, almost numbing but there are also perceptual issues: blacks as they are portrayed in the media -- INCLUDING how many blacks, unfortunately, CHOOSE to portray themselves, as thugs, gangstas, womanizers with no soul, etc. My advice, my friend:: don't let anyone, black or white, define YOU. You need only be the terrific guy you are-- which I sense from your many posts here. And everything else will fall nicely into place for you. OK, buddy?? |
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Posted by brooklynQB on Thu Apr 21 18:16:34 2005, in response to Re: A honest cultural question..., posted by Train Dude on Thu Apr 21 17:39:38 2005. That was a misprint. But the weath of the average black family is 10% of whites.Hey, if this bothers you, don't post. I asked a honest question, you gave you're answer. You and Ron need to cut your bull shit becasue you both look like assholes. Those who don't solve problems are the problem. You and Ron are NOT being part of the solution... |
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Posted by brooklynQB on Thu Apr 21 18:18:40 2005, in response to Re: A honest cultural question..., posted by Charles G on Thu Apr 21 18:11:55 2005. Thank you.All of you should use this post as a model for the rest of the conversation. But why such high rates of incarceration and single parents? Is it cultural? Economic? Is it getting better? How can we improve the situation? |
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Posted by L Train on Thu Apr 21 18:20:42 2005, in response to A honest cultural question..., posted by brooklynQB on Thu Apr 21 17:01:22 2005. It's a combination of racism and rap music. There have been great strides in black America over the last few decades but there are still vestiges of racism. I'm not convinced that if a black and white person with the same qualifications applied for the same job then they'd have an equal shot at that job. As for rap music, it encourages blacks to act like gangsters, get women pregnant and not take care of their babies, and smoke weed. It frowns upon getting an education. 50 Cent is glorified because he got shot 9 times, not because he got a Ph D. Instead of realizing how close he came to dying and trying to change he glorified his near death experience. Instead of emulating positive blacks like Colin Powell (you may not like his policies but you have to respect him) and Magic Johnson blacks want to be thugs just like in these rap videos. |
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Posted by brooklynQB on Thu Apr 21 18:20:47 2005, in response to Re: A honest cultural question..., posted by M15 to South Ferry on Thu Apr 21 18:12:00 2005. Yes, let's drop all our problems becasue one person has the maturity of a 4 year old.No wonder nothing gets solved. |
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Posted by Train Dude on Thu Apr 21 18:22:53 2005, in response to Re: A honest cultural question..., posted by brooklynQB on Thu Apr 21 18:16:34 2005. I only asked where you got your numbers, friend. If you quote statistics, you should be prepared to back them up. We've been over this ground before. If you say 10%, just show me where you got the number. If it's 60 or 70% it still makes for a valid discussion but we should all start with the same basic info.As for Ron, please don't link me with him. I'll be as contentious as the next guy and maybe then some but give me a well thought out argument, supported by verifiable facts and I'll listen, at the very least. |
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Posted by M15 to South Ferry on Thu Apr 21 18:26:54 2005, in response to Re: A honest cultural question..., posted by brooklynQB on Thu Apr 21 18:20:47 2005. I meant the bickering going on in this thread, not the original topic. |
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Posted by brooklynQB on Thu Apr 21 18:27:26 2005, in response to Re: A honest cultural question..., posted by Train Dude on Thu Apr 21 18:22:53 2005. Don't give me this whole "I'm better than him!" argument. It didn't work in 4th grade, so it doesn't work here either. You're both to blame.Make peace and realize that just becasue you have different opinions, it doesn't make the other evil or stupid. Becasue someone will think that about you... |
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Posted by brooklynQB on Thu Apr 21 18:29:39 2005, in response to Re: A honest cultural question..., posted by M15 to South Ferry on Thu Apr 21 18:26:54 2005. (Yeah)Right...Hey, you're a minority too. For every Black man called "nigger" there is an Asian-American being called "chink" or "gook". So think about that before you decide to be an ass... |
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Posted by Train Dude on Thu Apr 21 18:30:14 2005, in response to Re: A honest cultural question..., posted by brooklynQB on Thu Apr 21 18:27:26 2005. I'm not trying to defend myself. I asked where you got your 'facts' from. I said that if you want to have a meaningful discussion I want verifiable statistics. If you can't provide them, then say so. |
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Posted by M15 to South Ferry on Thu Apr 21 18:30:57 2005, in response to Re: A honest cultural question..., posted by brooklynQB on Thu Apr 21 18:29:39 2005. Yesh I'm sorry I bothered to be the peacekeeper b/w them. |
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Posted by Charles G on Thu Apr 21 18:31:57 2005, in response to Re: A honest cultural question..., posted by brooklynQB on Thu Apr 21 18:18:40 2005. The single parenting and rate of male incarceration are absolutely linked.To a degree, it is economic -- but at some point it becomes cultural. Single teenage girls have babies that they aren't prepared to handle -- so those children grow up without strong parental role models and repeat the mistakes of their parents (men to jail, women to single motherhood). Eventually, you have 50 year old great grandmothers. And to put it bluntly -- if you're a 10 year old child who has a father in jail and a grandfather in jail (if you're unlucky enough to even know who they are) and an unmarried mother and an unmarried grandmother, the probability of your living the American Dream are pretty darn close to 0%. But that's not Black Culture (or "African American" culture, or whatever the name of the day might be). It applies equally to the whites in many parts of West Virginia. I think the mistake many make is to think there is one Black Culture. There isn't one White Culture -- why would anyone think there'd be only one Black Culture. |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Thu Apr 21 18:34:20 2005, in response to Re: A honest cultural question..., posted by Train Dude on Thu Apr 21 18:08:13 2005. The trouble is that you don't know what a liberal is, or even what a consevative is. |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Thu Apr 21 18:36:15 2005, in response to Re: A honest cultural question..., posted by Charles G on Thu Apr 21 18:31:57 2005. Very nicely said. |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Thu Apr 21 18:38:14 2005, in response to Re: A honest cultural question..., posted by brooklynQB on Thu Apr 21 18:27:26 2005. I am at peace with Train Dude. Don't worry about it. |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Thu Apr 21 18:39:30 2005, in response to Re: A honest cultural question..., posted by UWS Greg on Thu Apr 21 18:14:41 2005. I like your advice. Well said! |
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Posted by RonInBayside on Thu Apr 21 18:40:31 2005, in response to Re: A honest cultural question..., posted by Train Dude on Thu Apr 21 18:10:37 2005. Just honest observations, Train Dude. Show us your better side, I dare you. |
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Posted by Flxiblemetro on Thu Apr 21 18:52:24 2005, in response to A honest cultural question..., posted by brooklynQB on Thu Apr 21 17:01:22 2005. You know blacks(or African Americans) makes up 12 percent of USA population. That's probably why blacks earn 1/10th of the wealth of whites.On another note, there are a few black families that in live in middle/or upper class neighborhoods where the majority of the people are white. By a few, I mean black individuals/ or families that make up of less than 5 percent of the whole population in a middle/upper class neighborhood. The majority of white individuals/or families can get along with minority of blacks in a middle/or upper class community....why? Because some white individuals/or families learn judge people on thier charater, not the color of thier like DR. said in one of his speeches. If the a white person(s) can't get along with one or more black persons, It's probably because of what that black person/or people did, not because of how they racially look like. |
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Posted by Flxiblemetro on Thu Apr 21 18:59:54 2005, in response to Re: A honest cultural question..., posted by Charles G on Thu Apr 21 18:31:57 2005. I knew that race is confused with culture. |
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Posted by brooklynQB on Thu Apr 21 19:06:52 2005, in response to Re: A honest cultural question..., posted by Flxiblemetro on Thu Apr 21 18:52:24 2005. True. But that post also hints of discounting racism. Many whites still do not like blacks...not all...but some. |
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Posted by AlM on Thu Apr 21 19:08:45 2005, in response to Re: A honest cultural question..., posted by brooklynQB on Thu Apr 21 18:16:34 2005. "But the weath of the average black family is 10% of whites."You raise some very good points, and I think you've gotten some very good answers to some very hard questions. But I really don't think that the statistic you are quoting, even if true, is meaningful. First of all, the important statistic is the median, not the average. The multibillionaires and multimillionaires in this world will skew any statistic that uses averages. The median black income (i.e., that income where 50% are higher, 50% lower) is certainly lower than the median white income, and ditto with wealth (total net worth). But it's not anywhere near a factor of 10. |
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Posted by Train Dude on Thu Apr 21 19:15:24 2005, in response to Re: A honest cultural question..., posted by RonInBayside on Thu Apr 21 18:40:31 2005. You've seen it! You want to debate facts with me, then I'll debate facts. If you want to take everything to a personal level, that's on you. VR punching ribs, Ron? I suggest you take your aggression issues elsewhere. |
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Posted by M15 to South Ferry on Thu Apr 21 19:32:17 2005, in response to Re: A honest cultural question..., posted by RonInBayside on Thu Apr 21 18:38:14 2005. That's good to hear - we don't want you guys to start sending hateful e-mails. |
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Posted by Orange Blossom Express on Thu Apr 21 20:46:49 2005, in response to A honest cultural question..., posted by brooklynQB on Thu Apr 21 17:01:22 2005. I don't think it was 1/10th, that's a stretch(10%?). I forget the number. The Chinese like to publish it in talking about our human rights violations and all that stuff in revenge for when our leader insults them(even though they're funding our gov't operation now). There was also a story on Hispanic neighborhoods being the safest. But like "white" I dont' know what they mean by Hispanic. Little Haiti? Little Havana? Or the Mexican bodegas. I dont' think they like to be mixed up.Anyway, I think Bill Cosby said it best, and it's obvious to see in the racist northland, there's some negative attitude mainly and possibly an irreversable school problem in this generation. |
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Posted by Peter Rosa on Thu Apr 21 20:54:52 2005, in response to Re: A honest cultural question..., posted by RonInBayside on Thu Apr 21 17:49:47 2005. I think what BrooklynQB read is not that blacks on average earn one-tenth of what whites do, clearly that would be absurd, but rather than the average black person's net assets are one-tenth of the average white person's.My LIRR/NYCT blog |
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Posted by brooklynQB on Thu Apr 21 20:57:50 2005, in response to Re: A honest cultural question..., posted by Peter Rosa on Thu Apr 21 20:54:52 2005. Bingo! |
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Posted by Orange Blossom Express on Thu Apr 21 21:01:41 2005, in response to Re: A honest cultural question..., posted by Flxiblemetro on Thu Apr 21 18:52:24 2005. I'm agree with you on the fact of classism. It's not really classism but culturalism. If you live in a middle or upperclass neighbhorhood and you act "normal" like everyone else, most likely there won't be a problem.But, and this is the problem most people have with bus terminals and section 8, if you're going to yell and carry on, and blast music or Louis Farrakan at 3am, throw trash all around, and other things in the like, you are not going to be accepted. And like I seen in a college in PA, some will make excuses such as, "You don't understand our culture". Not going to do the whole story, but after the culturism is reversed to some racism thing, it doesn't help but hurt the whole cause. It's not a crutch or a get out of jail free card. Just follow the damn rules and be considerate. Basically, when in Rome do what the Romans do, or be yourself but don't piss the locals off. I'm not about to be building any Temples in Iran so don't you do it and make excuses too. :) Or if that didn't work, we live in a society, so as long as everyone is civil, there ought to be zero problems and issues. |
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Posted by Peter Rosa on Thu Apr 21 21:04:15 2005, in response to Re: A honest cultural question..., posted by Charles G on Thu Apr 21 18:11:55 2005. I can't remember exactly where, but I think I actually read recently that -- once you correct for education levels earnings for black females and white females are nearly equal.I've heard that too. Another surprising statistic is that if you look at husband-wife families, blacks and white have almost equal average incomes. Even though black men tend to earn somewhat less than white men, married black women are much more likely to be in the workforce than are married white women. The "housewife" phenomenon is pretty much a white thing. My LIRR/NYCT blog |
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Posted by American Pig on Thu Apr 21 22:08:35 2005, in response to Re: A honest cultural question..., posted by L Train on Thu Apr 21 18:20:42 2005. A big problem is that it seems today that all you see is violence in movies and sex on TV. But where are those good old fashioned values on which we used to rely?Lucky there's a family guy, lucky there's a man who positively can do all the things that make us F-ing cry. He's a family guy! |
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Posted by mr_brian on Thu Apr 21 22:29:52 2005, in response to Re: A honest cultural question..., posted by brooklynQB on Thu Apr 21 18:29:39 2005. How was he trying to be an ass? He was trying to mediate and you accuse him of adding to the problemYour Asperger's is really showing itself here. No wonder why you had a hard time fitting in at Straps. |
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Posted by Olog-hai on Thu Apr 21 22:53:21 2005, in response to A honest cultural question..., posted by brooklynQB on Thu Apr 21 17:01:22 2005. Why is there so much violence in Black areas?There's violence in white areas too, and Hispanic areas, Russian areas, Italian areas, all down the line. The media likes to report the violence in the black areas more. |
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Posted by Broadway Lion on Fri Apr 22 00:12:53 2005, in response to Re: A honest cultural question..., posted by AlM on Thu Apr 21 19:08:45 2005.  (answering brooklynQB rather than this post directly) It is an interesting question regardless of what the percentages is or how you count them, since any researcher or statictician with an ax to grind can come up with whatever numbers they want. Instead, listen to how people talk, how they use the language. Watch what they do, and how they work. Even if they have the job of wiping tables at McDonald's, watch and see if they care about the job, if they care what they look like, if they show up at work on time, and are reliable workers. The color or race of the person is irrelevent. So the question I ask myself is not "why haven't they earned more money." The question I ask myself is why do more black people seem to fall into a catagory that seems to marginalize themselves. It starts at home, is there a larger percentage of single parent homes in black communities? Is there a larger percentage of poorly educated parents? Is the a larger percentage of families living in poverty? What can be done about this? Better education? Better Schools? Schools are important, knowledge is important, but my most important lessons were learned at home. Good Schools (and mayby a majority of black people do not live where there are good schools) can overcome only so much of the home handicap (if there even is such a thing as a home handicap). I think for the individual person, it is a willingness to work: at home, in school, in those important first jobs. Wiping tables at McDonald's is not important in the grand scheme of things, but learning good work habits is. Having an employer say: "Yes he is reliable" is priceless, especially when one has other disadvantages in the work marketplace. It's not fair. I'm I white man answering a question that you asked of blacks. My experince in the black world is very limited. I grew up in Merrick back in the early 60s. Blacks lived on the other side of the Meadowbrook Parkway, and were seldome seen on our side of it. There was only one black family in our neighborhood, and they were no different from us. The house was the same, the income was the same, the school was the same, and their kids got far better grades than I ever did. Across the parkway in Roosevelt, there were many burnt out house. People rented homes rather than owning them. The parkway made a great barrier. Only Washington Avenue crossed the parkway, and there were no stores or other attractions near by on our side that would have attracted people to walk that distance. The only times I went into Roosevelt was on the bus headed to Roosevelt Field. How can you address these underlying issues? I do not know. IQ tests are known to be "skewed" towards the white kids. But this is not really so: they were only intended to measure how people were likely to succede in society: the predominent society, in white society. My first suggestion is not to measure your life, your success against the life and success of others. Set your own goals. Decide what makes you happy, what makes you to be fulfilled, and then work toward these goals. I am a monk. I live in a monastery. I am paid nothing. I have no job, no bank account. I have vows of obedience, and these include celibacy, so I do not have a wife, lover or family of my own to raise. But I can say that I have reached most of my life's goals. Those are not measured on IQ tests either. Nor are they measured against other people's agendas. If your goals include success in this world as others have defined success, then you will have to play by their rules. These include excellence in education, in communications, in interpersonal relationships. (Cay you write a cogent post that does not pull other people down?) You (as a black kid) can excel in this (white adult) world, others have done so, and in the process have become "white" in some ways. You already *know* what it takes to succede: and people will NOT put roadblocks in your path when you make that effort. Maybe *that* is only my "white" opinion, but even a mediocre teacher in a poor school will take interest in you when you try your best, and ask for help. My father loved algebra, it was his favorite subject, and he spent endless (and fruitles) hours trying to force it into my head. I have hated and done poorly with all varieties of mathmatics ever since second grade. He also discouraged my drawing subway maps. It never occured to him to use that subway map to teach algebra. Sometimes you have to succede on your own inspite of your parents. I have answered how you, as a kid, might push yourself into a better job and or income level. I really have danced around your original question of "why as a group..." But the group is a moot point. A group is nothing more than a group of individuals. You can only change individuals, not groups. Is this where you want to go? Then work in this direction. The more you put into life, the more you will get out of life. But remember, there *is* more to life than success as the white man measures it. Strive for a peaceful soul. |
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Re: A honest cultural question... |
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Posted by brooklynQB on Fri Apr 22 14:52:06 2005, in response to Re: A honest cultural question..., posted by Orange Blossom Express on Thu Apr 21 21:01:41 2005. Civil distrubance is one thing.Cultural conformity is a Nazi thing. You basically said all minorities are a disturbance. Between this and the bus terminal thread, I can already see what you're hinting at. Keep you racist views out of my thread. You are part of the "racial" problem... |
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Re: A honest cultural question... |
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Posted by Flatbush41 on Fri Apr 22 15:34:38 2005, in response to Re: A honest cultural question..., posted by Olog-hai on Thu Apr 21 22:53:21 2005. There's violence in white areas too, and Hispanic areas, Russian areas, Italian areas, all down the line. The media likes to report the violence in the black areas more.This is TRUTH! The media's preference [if you want to call it that] is to show that there aren't any productive black folks IN PARTICULAR. There is ignorance and violence/crime in all communities. ANY location where poverty is in your face, there is the likelihood that there will be more crime, now of course lets not be stupid and think there isn't crime in well to do areas as well, in fact I think the numbers won't be as distanced as we may think; depending on area of course. |
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Re: A honest cultural question... |
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Posted by Richard Rabinowitz on Fri Apr 22 15:36:48 2005, in response to Re: A honest cultural question..., posted by RonInBayside on Thu Apr 21 18:07:22 2005. And high-speed buckyball elevators to your subway stations.... |
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Re: A honest cultural question... |
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Posted by Richard Rabinowitz on Fri Apr 22 15:43:47 2005, in response to Re: A honest cultural question..., posted by Charles G on Thu Apr 21 18:11:55 2005. So, it's the police that are at least partially to blame for this income disparity. (And, also, gangs and stereotypes among the police about gangs, as well as stereotypes about blacks, etc.)My advice? Don't do drugs, don't go around shooting guns, and work at helping society in a civil manner (especially in front of cops). |
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